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Pay our Nurses/healthcare staff a decent wage

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    #62
    dockysher
    Registered Users Posts: 360 ✭✭dockysher


    Nurse do deserve way more than there on infairness for work and hours worked, nights, weekends, christmas etc.
    I have mate as secondary school teacher who always slagging about being off so much and getting over 30 euro an hour after tax for sitting at home.
    I am not teacher bashing just using as example


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    #63
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 4,942 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    gary550 wrote: »
    Nurses go into the job open eyed on what is required of them and know what they will be payed for it. Comparing the public and private sector is pointless.

    Our of curiosity what do you think is a fair wage for a nurse?

    How many of us at 17 or 18 when filling out our CAO actually knew what our jobs in 4 years time would be?

    Nursing is a vocation, but the long inflexible hours, the physical abuse they have to put up with, overcrowding and the weekly scandals in the HSE is deterring people from entering any sort of medical practice.

    The HSE ran a campaign to bring Irish nurses abroad home, offered them relocation costs and some other perks. Over three years they got something like nine candidates.

    Your question of a fair wage is a loaded one, conditions mean more to many nurses than money. Conditions in hospitals on the continent and Australia are simply way better than Ireland, wards are smaller, they have more help and resources and the pay is comparable enough.


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    #64
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    No-one, including OP, has defined what a "decent" wage is but a so-called ‘senior’ staff nurse or midwife can expect to be on an annual salary of €47,898.
    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0209/1028490-nurses-pay/


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    #65
    Mitch Connor
    Registered Users Posts: 45,141 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    biko wrote: »
    No-one, including OP, has defined what a "decent" wage is but a so-called ‘senior’ staff nurse or midwife can expect to be on an annual salary of €47,898.
    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0209/1028490-nurses-pay/

    'so-called'?


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    #66
    gary550
    Registered Users Posts: 638 ✭✭✭gary550


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    How many of us at 17 or 18 when filling out our CAO actually knew what our jobs in 4 years time would be?

    Nursing is a vocation, but the long inflexible hours, the physical abuse they have to put up with, overcrowding and the weekly scandals in the HSE is deterring people from entering any sort of medical practice.

    The HSE ran a campaign to bring Irish nurses abroad home, offered them relocation costs and some other perks. Over three years they got something like nine candidates.

    Your question of a fair wage is a loaded one, conditions mean more to many nurses than money. Conditions in hospitals on the continent and Australia are simply way better than Ireland, wards are smaller, they have more help and resources and the pay is comparable enough.

    I don't disagree with you to an extent,

    The HSE has many problems that need to be addressed but throwing money at it and expecting pay rises to solve the current set of challenges it faces will not work in my opinion. My only argument is that nurses are not badly paid.


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    #67
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    Less external experts and staff.

    The hse pays more for an agency staff member than those directly employed. Another brilliant move back when people were demanding public sector redundancies.

    In the short term yes, but they don't have to pay for pensions etc. for agency staff.


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    #68
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Mitch Connor wrote: »
    'so-called'?
    Write RTE an angry letter if you don't like their journalism.


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    #69
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    CrabRevolution wrote: »
    In the short term yes, but they don't have to pay for pensions etc. for agency staff.

    You can't run any services on agency staff long term its always more expensive long term.

    Its amazing how all the libertarians and those of similar views have gone away, for a while anyway.


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    #70
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    CrabRevolution wrote: »
    In the short term yes, but they don't have to pay for pensions etc. for agency staff.

    I am curiours how much do you thing the agency fee is?


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    #71
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/hse-agency-spend-hits-900-000-daily-on-agency-staff-1.3969987


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    #72
    Mitch Connor
    Registered Users Posts: 45,141 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    biko wrote: »
    Write RTE an angry letter if you don't like their journalism.

    its is your sentence.


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    #73
    tastyt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭tastyt


    Nurses in this country are very good and are doing a great job right now.

    But they are well paid , there’s no doubt.

    What’s really pointless is people giving nurses wages without allowances, night shift, Sundays. It’s a 24 hour job , they are guaranteed payment for these hours, often double time.

    Looking at basic pay of any public sector worker on 24 hour shift work is a pointless exercise, it’s only half the job.

    I was one of the above many years ago, started on 26K basic. My P60 for my first year was 39K


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    #74
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 4,942 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    gary550 wrote: »
    I don't disagree with you to an extent,

    The HSE has many problems that need to be addressed but throwing money at it and expecting pay rises to solve the current set of challenges it faces will not work in my opinion. My only argument is that nurses are not badly paid.

    I agree with you there too, but people compare Irish nurse wages to other countries and its often apples and oranges.

    Given the choice most nurses would prefer better conditions and rosters to more pay, but given every developed nation in the world is understaffed and frantically hiring, the HSE can't magic more nurses to fix the situation, so pay is an easy solution.

    They're in a catch 22 of their own making. Can't encourage people to train as nurses because the job has such a bad rep, can't improve the conditions because you don't have enough nurses.


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    #75
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Mitch Connor wrote: »
    its is your sentence.
    It's not, it's RTE, please read the article this time.
    A so-called ‘senior’ staff nurse or midwife can expect to be on an annual salary of €47,898.
    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0209/1028490-nurses-pay/


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    #76
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,330 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    biko wrote: »
    No-one, including OP, has defined what a "decent" wage is but a so-called ‘senior’ staff nurse or midwife can expect to be on an annual salary of €47,898.
    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0209/1028490-nurses-pay/

    That's before you take into account shift allowances, overtime etc. The OH is on pint 13 of the scale and earned 65k last year. She told me recently that under a new contract she is getting an extra 4k on basic this year also.


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    #77
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    That's before you take into account shift allowances, overtime etc. The OH is on pint 13 of the scale and earned 65k last year. She told me recently that under a new contract she is getting an extra 4k on basic this year also.

    Are you really counting over time as a good wage?

    I agree with not having pay based on sentimentally.


    STAFF NURSE 1/09/19 PSPP 13 29,860 31,654 32,734 33,951 35,487 37,019 38,546 39,866 41,189 42,506 43,824 45,119 46,501

    https://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/resources/hr-circulars/hr-circular-025-2019-appendix-2-amended-1-september-2019-consolidated-pay-scales-final-pdf.pdf


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    #78
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    I'm expecting an emergency budget before the end of the year. Taxes are collapsing, large numbers of private sector jobs have been lost and more will follow, large parts of the world economy has ground to a halt. The Public Service will do well to simply hold onto their existing wages.


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    #79
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    I work part-time I could choose to do overtime/ more shifts where I work but I choose not too but there are full-time people who do and it would make their salaries seem very good but that is not the experience of the average person.


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    #80
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,722 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Are you really counting over time as a good wage?

    Shift allowance is not the same as overtime.

    It should be counted when it's a standard part of the job, not an optional extra.


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    #81
    Gretas Gonna Get Ya!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Gretas Gonna Get Ya!


    The only way we (as a society) will find the extra money, to pay nurses etc the wages they truly deserve for the amazing job they do... is for this crisis to create a huge shift in our collective priorities.

    Look at the obscene money that sports stars or pop stars get for what they do...

    We are the people who pay their wages. We are the ones who decide that they deserve those figures, based on the value put on their respective "jobs".

    As a football fan, which I am for example, I have always been uncomfortable with paying anyone millions of euros/pounds to kick a piece of leather around a football pitch. But if you try to argue about the legitimacy of it... you just get shut down by the usual people, who cry about free market bla bla bla...

    Most kids who play sport, would (and do) happily play it for nothing... so why not pay them the average industrial wage to kick a ball around, rather than paying them millions? Most would probably still be very happy to earn a living doing what they love.

    I know I'm only using sport as one example, there are many more areas of life that would be similar... I just think the money already exists to pay our nurses a better wage, but we're looking in the wrong places to try and find it. We need to look at ourselves, and what we value most... because that's where our money is going... it's going on rich prima donna sports stars or pop stars or movie stars etc etc.

    Apparently we value them higher than nurses or firefighters etc... I personally just find this all very embarrassing - in general - but particularly when it's highlighted so obviously during extraordinary times like this!

    If all that comes out of this crisis, is our healthcare workers getting a pat on the back and platitudes about how great they are... what can we really say about ourselves as a society?


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    #82
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Shift allowance is not the same as overtime.

    It should be counted when it's a standard part of the job, not an optional extra.

    overtime etc, that is from the post


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    #83
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/06/who-says-theres-a-global-shortfall-of-5point9-million-nurses-as-world-battles-coronavirus-pandemic.html

    The above tends to put them into a strong negotiation position as opposed to other public servants.


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    #84
    JJJackal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭JJJackal


    iebamm2580 wrote: »
    Could be wrong but i was of the understanding that nurses were there to care for the sick, thats what you sign up for so if cuts have to be made after this nurses like everybody else should be included.

    When the nurses leave for the UK and AUS etc what will you do then? I suspect after this there will be job opportunities for Irish healthcare staff in many countries


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    #85
    Mitch Connor
    Registered Users Posts: 45,141 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    biko wrote: »
    It's not, it's RTE, please read the article this time.


    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0209/1028490-nurses-pay/

    this is the sentence you wrote:

    No-one, including OP, has defined what a "decent" wage is but a so-called ‘senior’ staff nurse or midwife can expect to be on an annual salary of €47,898.

    That is your sentence. You chose the wording of the sentence you wrote.

    RTE certainly didn't say anything about the OP or what they did or did not define


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    #86
    Mitch Connor
    Registered Users Posts: 45,141 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Shift allowance is not the same as overtime.

    It should be counted when it's a standard part of the job, not an optional extra.

    plenty of nurses do not have access to that.

    Out patients, Day Wards etc - essentially 9-5 locations with no weekends, no bank holidays worked, etc.


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    #87
    shesty
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,894 Mod ✭✭✭✭shesty


    The real question is are we willing to put our hands in our pockets to fund this?Our health service problems are of our own making.We need a serious shift in our approach to health in this country but it will cost us more as taxpayers.


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    #88
    Dr. Bre
    Registered Users Posts: 7,557 ✭✭✭Dr. Bre


    There won’t be any money to give increases after this.


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    #89
    JJJackal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭JJJackal


    Dr. Bre wrote: »
    There won’t be any money to give increases after this.

    Nurses and doctors will leave if not paid; they may not come back again for oncallforIrelandv2


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    #90
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 4,942 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    JJJackal wrote: »
    Nurses and doctors will leave if not paid; they may not come back again for oncallforIrelandv2

    They already do, in their droves.

    There's a real sense the NHS will collapse if Covid really takes hold, and another sense it will collapse afterwards when the HCPs realise working in the NHS just isn't worth it.

    The HSE here can't be much better. Also, how many of the Asian and African HCPs went home to their own countries out of patriotism?


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    #91
    JJJackal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭JJJackal


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    They already do, in their droves.

    There's a real sense the NHS will collapse if Covid really takes hold, and another sense it will collapse afterwards when the HCPs realise working in the NHS just isn't worth it.

    The HSE here can't be much better. Also, how many of the Asian and African HCPs went home to their own countries out of patriotism?

    The point I am making is more will leave. We were lucky this time that alot of decided to come back to help. Will they come back again?

    When there is a new pay cut as a result of the hole in public finances how will health care workers react after the sacrifices they will have made to keep us safe?


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