The SF vote was part of a class war against Middle Ireland

Eric Cartman · 29-03-2020 8:19pm

Yurt! wrote: »

I'm sorry that's absolute BS, and a warped way to view how public monies are directed and the benefits everyone derives from the same.

I'm not saying that the government always gets tax and spend right, but you appear to have an extremely 2-D and basic understanding about things.

2020 Total Expenditure: €80.4 billion

Categories :
Other - Current Spend 12.3 billion, spend that impacts those who work - 7.14 billion
Transport - Current Spend 2.7 billion , all of it benefits all
Debt Payment - 9.9 billion , all benefits all
Agriculture - 1.6 billon , all benefits all
Justice - 3 billion , Except for 251 million for free legal aid and 'fair immigration' all benefits all
education - 11.2 billion , most of its alright,
Welfare - 21.3 Billion , of which 10 billion is pensions and other sensible benefits
Health - 18.3 billion, all benefits all except the system is abused, ill leave as is but trimming the fat would save 5 billion easily.

63.59 billion benefits everyone, 16.81 billion quid going purely to those who detract from the economy.

we could actually abolish vat if we stopped spending on these people.

Yurt2 · 29-03-2020 8:27pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

2020 Total Expenditure: €80.4 billion

63.59 billion benefits everyone, 16.81 billion quid going purely to those who detract from the economy.

Once upon a time (and I'm sure many reading this will have a similar story) I was on the dole for a few months due to the financial crisis. I am now a high tax bracket earner and have contributed many times back what I received and will fingers crossed do so for the rest of my career.

Back then, I wasn't one who purely detracts from the economy, and most of the people who are on the dole aren't either. The vast majority go back into the labour force and contribute towards services. You have a narrow and quite frankly Thatcherite view of the world, which is marginal and best ignored (I intend to do so from here on out, because you're saying nothing I haven't heard before from Bill Cullen types).

People like you would have people in difficulty gone on a boat or a plane to Canada / the UK permanently. We're a society not a spiv economy, long may it stay that way.

end of the road · 29-03-2020 8:52pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

2020 Total Expenditure: €80.4 billion

Categories :
Other - Current Spend 12.3 billion, spend that impacts those who work - 7.14 billion
Transport - Current Spend 2.7 billion , all of it benefits all
Debt Payment - 9.9 billion , all benefits all
Agriculture - 1.6 billon , all benefits all
Justice - 3 billion , Except for 251 million for free legal aid and 'fair immigration' all benefits all
education - 11.2 billion , most of its alright,
Welfare - 21.3 Billion , of which 10 billion is pensions and other sensible benefits
Health - 18.3 billion, all benefits all except the system is abused, ill leave as is but trimming the fat would save 5 billion easily.

63.59 billion benefits everyone, 16.81 billion quid going purely to those who detract from the economy.

we could actually abolish vat if we stopped spending on these people.

yes, good idea, we could put genuine people who are receiving some of that spend into serious hardship, no doubt they would actually be the only ones effected as the tiny few who are doal lifers will just find other sources and it won't be a job.
legal aid is worth every penny by the way, it insures those unable to afford access to legal aid to try and get fair justice are able to do so.

Tony EH · 29-03-2020 9:47pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I want a government to provide me the bare necessities of infrastructure and emergency services. I shouldnt be paying our obscene tax rates when the only people who benefit from the vast majority of services are outside of the tax net .

This is absolute cobblers. But wholly indicative of your utterly miserable mindset.

Geuze · 30-03-2020 12:26am

Yurt! wrote: »

Forgive me, but with your obsession with the tiny amount of long-term unemployed in this country, you wont be fixing anything. You could put them on an island and dynamite it to the bottom of the sea, and the issues above would remain.

If you're p*ssed off with high taxation and sh*t services in return, as always, you're looking in the wrong place. You've deluded yourself into thinking you've found the source of the problem, you haven't, you've just gone into a political and spiritual psychosis about the negligible amount of people on long-term unemployed that every developed country has.

You're frothing at the mouth about the wrong things.

I fully agree that the high price level / medical / legal / energy / property costs are nothing to do with the LT unemployed.

However, it is true that we have high rates of economic inactivity in Ireland.

We have led the EU in rates of VLWI for over a decade.

Geuze · 30-03-2020 12:27am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

m I shouldnt be paying our obscene tax rates when the only people who benefit from the vast majority of services are outside of the tax net.

Note that other than the crazy low entry point into the top MTR, overall taxes are not high in Ireland.

Geuze · 30-03-2020 12:29am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

correct.....so you cut services..... and before you start Im not talking about nurses and doctors , I'm talking about like the immigrant council of Ireland, the duplicate bodies in the homeless sector, hse management etc...

Having hundreds of AHBs doesn't make sense, fair enough.

Geuze · 30-03-2020 12:30am

end of the road wrote: »

if the government are actually going to set up their own homeless service, .... then the homeless services and charities, are needed.

We have 31 LA which deal with homelessness.

But as well there are dozens of homeless charities.

And hundreds of AHBs.

Runaways · 30-03-2020 9:28am

Tony EH wrote: »

This is absolute cobblers. But wholly indicative of your utterly miserable mindset.

All it took was a pandemic and a lockdown before 1/2 the country was on the dole and the other 1/2 wishing they were allowed to Travel to where they want without getting moved on by the Gardaí.

Sure another few weeks of this and he'll be recognised as an ethnic minority.

mariaalice · 30-03-2020 2:15pm

Geuze wrote: »

We have 31 LA which deal with homelessness.

But as well there are dozens of homeless charities.

And hundreds of AHBs.

Like a lot of these things they are not as they seem when you drill down, for example, an organization coulld have been providing services to some group and have lots of houses. Becaue of legislation they have to separate off the housing part and set it up as some sort of social housing organization giving the impression that there is more housing organization that there use to be, when in fact it is just a change in category.

blanch152 · 30-03-2020 6:29pm

Geuze wrote: »

Note that other than the crazy low entry point into the top MTR, overall taxes are not high in Ireland.

In fact, taxes on the average salary and below average salary are far less in Ireland than most other countries.

Eric Cartman · 30-03-2020 6:54pm

blanch152 wrote: »

In fact, taxes on the average salary and below average salary are far less in Ireland than most other countries.

they are, we're too middle and top heavy on taxation, everyone of every income should be paying the 20% and the silly 40% rate should be 30 and only kick in at 100-150k.

and USC completely abolished.

oceanman · 30-03-2020 9:29pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

they are, we're too middle and top heavy on taxation, everyone of every income should be paying the 20% and the silly 40% rate should be 30 and only kick in at 100-150k.

and USC completely abolished.

are you having a laugh?

Eric Cartman · 30-03-2020 9:50pm

oceanman wrote: »

are you having a laugh?

Please tell me whats so outrageous about that proposal ?

Yurt2 · 31-03-2020 12:41am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Please tell me whats so outrageous about that proposal ?

Get out your Fisher Price calculator, what you typed if implemented would decimate income tax take in this country and collapse the state's ability to respond to anything. We'd have an economy like Afghanistan within a year.

Sure, it's SF supporters / voters and the left that are living in fantasy economic land. Jesus wept.

Fred Cryton · 31-03-2020 11:41pm

Yurt! wrote: »

Get out your Fisher Price calculator, what you typed if implemented would decimate income tax take in this country and collapse the state's ability to respond to anything. We'd have an economy like Afghanistan within a year.

Sure, it's SF supporters / voters and the left that are living in fantasy economic land. Jesus wept.

Actually you've shown yourself up by making a foolish comment.

Currently someone earning €20k in this country only pays around €600 income tax. That's a rate of 3%.

If they had to pay 20%, that would be €4,000 euro per year.

Abolish the USC to ease the burden. This would help remove the unfair tax burden on the squeezed middle. The tax burden would be spread out across the classes.

Yurt2 · 31-03-2020 11:49pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Actually you've shown yourself up by making a foolish comment.

Currently someone earning €20k in this country only pays around €600 income tax. That's a rate of 3%.

If they had to pay 20%, that would be €4,000 euro per year.

Abolish the USC to ease the burden. This would help remove the unfair tax burden on the squeezed middle. The tax burden would be spread out across the classes.

The poster was bleating about widening the tax base and proposed a tax solution that would decimate the tax-take in the country. End of. It was a thick proposal that would exacerbate the issue he claims wants solved.

A person on 20k pays a disproportionate percentage of their income on consumption taxes on food, fuel etc in any case and has very left over to make rent. Your proposal drives them from economic insecurity into poverty which would inevitably see them needing income supports. Not that you'd care.

smurgen · 31-03-2020 11:59pm

Funny in the day AIB introduced a wave of new hefty changes against taxpayers,many of which just lost their jobs to the recent pandemic many fine Gaelers came out supportimg the banks decision. Note that many of these charges applied if you'd a low amount coming into your account or a low balance. Can we infer from this that FG are punishing the poor and happy to see them taken advantage of?

https://twitter.com/mcmanusdavid/status/1245040163497050113?s=19

Idbatterim · 01-04-2020 12:22am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Please tell me whats so outrageous about that proposal ?

Absolutely nothing. Many other countries do this. But then again, they actually generate significant from property tax, water charges etc. here? Nah! The workers should pay for everything!

end of the road · 01-04-2020 12:33am

Idbatterim wrote: »

Absolutely nothing. Many other countries do this. But then again, they actually generate significant from property tax, water charges etc. here? Nah! The workers should pay for everything!

it's generally the worker who pays for everything in the other countries as well.

they will have the income to do so given the costs of living won't be anything near as high as here.
i would expect the vulnerable would either be given exemptions, or if not supports to help them pay these nonsense charges.

markodaly · 01-04-2020 12:57am

smurgen wrote: »

Can we infer from this that FG are punishing the poor and happy to see them taken advantage of?

No.

Die Hard 2019 · 01-04-2020 1:11am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Please tell me whats so outrageous about that proposal ?

The living wage is around 11-50 and while a person should strive to do better than just live and to become better than just a worker, a worker shod be paid the living wage. That should be the minimum.

Tax it at 20% and it is 13-80 so those lidil and aldi, Dunnes and Tesco workers that are braving this world while I sit in my boxers playing on Excell word need to be paid more.

The living wage should be tax free and free stamp with a ,15% employer stamp.

After that tax the lot at 30 % stamp included.

antonboyle · 01-04-2020 7:19am

SF received > 45% of the 1st preference vote in Donegal & usually top the poll in a constituency that has no major urban area except 1 large town in Letterkenny.Nothing like Darndale & the party of choice for most middle class people that I am acquainted with.The narrative of the OP is obviously borne of frustration at least

LuasSimon · 01-04-2020 3:29pm

Many middle class voted for SF because they are fed up of breaking their hole and still having nothing. Fed up of looking at FG and FF looking after the super rich and forgetting the average joe soap.

Middleclass means different things in different constituencies , Middleclass in Dublin means your on a 100K plus, (150K in South Dublin ) where as in Rural Ireland 50K is middleclass.

In Rural Ireland Welfare Class, working Class and lower middle class are all the same, they all have very little after bills. Upper middle class has become the new middle class whereas the Rich have become super rich but thats only a couple of hundred in each constituency who Sponsor FG or FF to keep this system in operation so eventually they can become oligarch rich like Larry Goodman or JP and start paying minimum tax in someother jurisdiction.

Brendan Bendar · 01-04-2020 3:34pm

LuasSimon wrote: »

Many middle class voted for SF because they are fed up of breaking their hole and still having nothing. Fed up of looking at FG and FF looking after the super rich and forgetting the average joe soap.

Middleclass means different things in different constituencies , Middleclass in Dublin means your on a 100K plus, (150K in South Dublin ) where as in Rural Ireland 50K is middleclass.

In Rural Ireland Welfare Class, working Class and lower middle class are all the same, they all have very little after bills. Upper middle class has become the new middle class whereas the Rich have become super rich but thats only a couple of hundred in each constituency who Sponsor FG or FF to keep this system in operation so eventually they can become oligarch rich like Larry Goodman or JP and start paying minimum tax in someother jurisdiction.

Sweet Jaysus is all I can say....sorry.

Runaways · 02-04-2020 6:21am

LuasSimon wrote: »

Many middle class voted for SF because they are fed up of breaking their hole and still having nothing. Fed up of looking at FG and FF looking after the super rich and forgetting the average joe soap.

Middleclass means different things in different constituencies , Middleclass in Dublin means your on a 100K plus, (150K in South Dublin ) where as in Rural Ireland 50K is middleclass.

In Rural Ireland Welfare Class, working Class and lower middle class are all the same, they all have very little after bills. Upper middle class has become the new middle class whereas the Rich have become super rich but thats only a couple of hundred in each constituency who Sponsor FG or FF to keep this system in operation so eventually they can become oligarch rich like Larry Goodman or JP and start paying minimum tax in someother jurisdiction.

You should copy and paste this into the various other SF bashing threads. This is the reality and the Fine Gael fanboys on boards are very comfortably insulated from this reality if their posts are anything to go by. ‘Fvck poor people’ being the underlying tone of their campaign on boards. Or one of them.

Runaways · 03-04-2020 9:39am

And this is Leo letting the mask slip and showing us the contempt he holds the lower paid and frontline minimum wage workers in. Meaning a huge amount of the workforce. We’re all scroungers apparently.
But yeah. Sinn Fein are the threat.
Fvck sake

https://twitter.com/caulmick/status/1245778803898671109?s=21

Brendan Bendar · 03-04-2020 11:39am

Runaways wrote: »

And this is Leo letting the mask slip and showing us the contempt he holds the lower paid and frontline minimum wage workers in. Meaning a huge amount of the workforce. We’re all scroungers apparently.
But yeah. Sinn Fein are the threat.
Fvck sake

https://twitter.com/caulmick/status/1245778803898671109?s=21

The usual source (Caul) coming up with the usual negativity.

Wonder when will Barry start trying to make capital about it.

The Lefties must be incandescent they can’t lay a glove on the Govt.

Runaways · 03-04-2020 11:41am

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

The usual source (Caul) coming up with the usual negativity.

Wonder when will Barry start trying to make capital about it.

The Lefties must be incandescent they can’t lay a glove on the Govt.

Brendan. You could play the clip without any comment and the content would remain the same.
It wouldn’t change what Leo said or what he meant one iota.

But nice try with the deflection

smurgen · 03-04-2020 12:42pm

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

The usual source (Caul) coming up with the usual negativity.

Wonder when will Barry start trying to make capital about it.

The Lefties must be incandescent they can’t lay a glove on the Govt.

You sound like comical Ali.

Randy Archer · 03-04-2020 2:22pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Very interesting article in the Times about where SF transfers went:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/sinn-f%C3%A9in-supporters-not-interested-in-a-left-alliance-or-coalition-with-fianna-f%C3%A1il-1.4196665

What this shows above all else is that the SF vote was largely a strike against Middle Class Ireland. In Dublin, almost half of SF transfers went to PBP/Socialist party. Another 23 percent went to left leaning independents. Only 5 percent of SF transfers went to Labour and only 12 percent to SocDems, who presumably the Shinners see as more middle class.

The correct way to view this election is through a class war lens. Not through a policy lens of housing and health. Particularly in Dublin. If it was about housing and health, then Labour and SocDems would be getting way more SF transfers.

SF won 80% of the vote in Darndale. Now this is an area that is almost 100% social or taxpayer supported in some way. Few voters are renting on the open market there. So don't try to convince me they care about rent. Their SF vote was not about policy. If getting a free house for their kids was all important, they would be transferring more to Labour and SocDems.

Hope the semi-intelligent voters who thought they'd punt on SF know they're in the company of the parents of those lovely feral street kids burning cars in Darndale.

Social democrats are mostly ex Labour and even Democratic Left. Labour never had much gra for SF as they chased the middle class votes, labour kinda have been dubbed champagne socialists in the past 10 years when they went chasing said working class vote - Pat Rabbitte of all people , was dubbed by legitimate old Labour people as FG lite , and the chasing of middle class votes partly lead to the creation of the SD whose ex labour members refused to enter government - they’d be what I see as old labour eg a Cian O’’Callaghan , decent people

Hardly a shock that SF votes transfers wouldn’t go to labour and vice versa

The “wurking class” do not exactly have much credible options .
E
They won’t even touch the head bangers like AAA /People before Progress . Labour are as good as dead in their eyes. SF similar have done good ground work (yet got told to **** off during the 2019 local elections ) but made the right noises that FF populists normally made in the past (FF use to be able to get both working and middle class votes )

As for so called workers vote, how does that explain SF vote in Places like Laois Offaly - one of the traditional strong holds of FF and decent FG SPOT (bucked the trend when ff got slaughtered nation win during the local elections nationally circa 2009) ? Sf topped the pole again, and in 2016 SF returned two TDs (Nolan left the party due to referendum issues ) . Yes one of two big towns but it’s mostly rural and hardly of the left leaning

Some achievement for Ex ff man Chris Andrews to sail in with a SF seat in his area , hardly a place renowned for welfare peasants

Westmeath, sf won a seat ,despite she getting hammered in the locals and IS another county that has strong Ff and FG presence and bucked the trend when ff was getting hammered in the locals in 2009. Labour had Penrose topping the poll since 1992 but that was a personal vote rather than party vote (he was mostly rural but had a bit of the Mullingar vote ) . Hardly a county of peasant workers on welfare . She sailed home comfortably .With ease , can’t be all council estate riff raff voting for her

Many more counties that are nothing Economically and socially like ****holes like Darnadale ,SF did really well.

SF clearly was getting more than the working class vote ,even some big rural votes.

Ff are dying. There’s nothing coming through from Ogra FF . Jack Chambers ? Jesus Christ . They were banking on the pretty young thing from Mayo, Lisa Chambers but a few needless and avoidable gaffs (travel expenses and voting tricks) and she lost her Mayo seat . Micheál, regardless of his Bertie links doesn’t scream confidence and neither does her man from Mayo, Dara Callelly . Youth ain’t there

Reality is ,someone like Pearse Doherty, with his sterling work on the Insurance scams had the Law Society applauding him . Leader Toibin prior to leaving would have been an acceptable face in FF and FG had he chosen them, like wise Pearse , (all parties have bluffers like Pearse so this isn’t unique , he has mastered the art of politics which is about telling people what they want to hear and worry about details later) Mary Lou hardly is a working class warrior, is she ? Again, she’d walk into any party if it suited her . Reilly would have no problems fitting in with Labour .carty was a two time EU parliament member in a huge diverse constituency and would have no issues working for rural Ireland parties

Reality is, they are becoming what FF use to be ie the ability to get votes from everywhere . Like Ff , the ya re populist and with tike,they will articulate more convincing manifestos . It’s safe to say their recent one could be thrown into the bin, but they no different to many a FF

A protest vote ? Maybe, people are sick of FF and are struggling to see the difference between them and FF . Thing is, all SF have to do is play and spin the right noises, just like Labour did between 2007-2011 . It’s easy to pull the wool over the Irish voters eyes, just ask FF in 2007 . No one wants to hear bad news stories and tighten their belts, which will come even if Covid wasn’t here .

Once Belfast (Not just Gerry ) ****s off and stop dictating to the Southern wing , they will have their own voice, what they do with it is another matter .

Mary has made several cock ups since gaining leadership (a) forcing a needless and costly Presidential Election (b) demanding the EU, in the mist of delicate Brexit talks, to back a United Ireland which no one is ready for ,and laughably comparing it to Germany, a nation that had a history of unity (c) massive student politics gaff as the votes continued to count and show it to be inconclusive ,waffling about leading talks to the exclusion of the two mainstream parties despite the numbers suggesting otherwise - within 2 days, the Irish stock market freaked out

Fred Cryton · 04-04-2020 2:54pm

Randy Archer wrote: »

They won’t even touch the head bangers like AAA /People before Progress .

Wrong. As stated in OP, 50% of SF transfers went to PBP.

As for so called workers vote, how does that explain SF vote in Places like Laois Offaly - one of the traditional strong holds of FF and decent FG SPOT (bucked the trend when ff got slaughtered nation win during the local elections nationally circa 2009) ? Sf topped the pole again, and in 2016 SF returned two TDs (Nolan left the party due to referendum issues ) . Yes one of two big towns but it’s mostly rural and hardly of the left leaning

They topped the pole in places like Offaly, Kildare North etc with 15 to 20% of the vote because they are winning almost all of the lower working class or welfare class, people who previously either didn't vote at all or voted independent, PBP etc.

Now what is new, and i didn't mention in my OP, is that SF have penetrated the lower middle class somewhat. I'm talking nurses, primary school teachers, skilled construction workers etc. That's new. It is this crowd that must be targeted by the other parties. They need to be made aware that SF are just a snakeoil salesman lefty populist bunch of economic illiterates. A bunch of cop killer apologists too. Push this home and SF vote will retreat.

end of the road · 04-04-2020 3:09pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Wrong. As stated in OP, 50% of SF transfers went to PBP.

They topped the pole in places like Offaly, Kildare North etc with 15 to 20% of the vote because they are winning almost all of the lower working class or welfare class, people who previously either didn't vote at all or voted independent, PBP etc.

Now what is new, and i didn't mention in my OP, is that SF have penetrated the lower middle class somewhat. I'm talking nurses, primary school teachers, skilled construction workers etc. That's new. It is this crowd that must be targeted by the other parties. They need to be made aware that SF are just a snakeoil salesman lefty populist bunch of economic illiterates. A bunch of cop killer apologists too. Push this home and SF vote will retreat.

it won't.
such scaremongering over sf has been tried for a long time and yet the amount of people who voted for them in the last election speaks for itself.
ff haven't delivered, fg haven't delivered, they can scaremonger about sf all they like but their records speak for themselves.

04-04-2020 3:12pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Now what is new, and i didn't mention in my OP, is that SF have penetrated the lower middle class somewhat. I'm talking nurses, primary school teachers, skilled construction workers etc. That's new. It is this crowd that must be targeted by the other parties. They need to be made aware that SF are just a snakeoil salesman lefty populist bunch of economic illiterates. A bunch of cop killer apologists too. Push this home and SF vote will retreat.

This group and lower paid private sector workers have been completly failed by the state and presenet estabkished parties(afaik we have highest % low wage workers by a long distance in the EU)

Why would they continue to vote FF/FG and ever expect things to change (only been 100 years or so now)....your accusing people of being snake oil salesmen....while noone else for em.to vote for...things cant continue the way they are

Fred Cryton · 23-04-2020 10:45pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

We'll all be running crying back to FG now anyway with the new corona recession

Very prescient. That's exactly what has happened judging by the latest opinion polls.

standardg60 · 23-04-2020 10:58pm

People only ever want change and want to improve society while things are going well as it's less likely to affect them.
If there's a chance that it will..fcuk that.

The SF vote was part of a class war against Middle Ireland

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