Pro14 Season 2019-2020

Digifriendly · 20-07-2019 4:06pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Yes...
That's what I said

Yes but point I am making is just 2 days not a fortnight later so why are this season's Pro 14 fixtures beginning so late?

ClanofLams · 20-07-2019 5:20pm

Digifriendly wrote: »

Yes but point I am making is just 2 days not a fortnight later so why are this season's Pro 14 fixtures beginning so late?

They are trying, insofar as possible, to limit clashes with international fixtures, there is only three rounds during the six nations also.

tmc1963 · 20-07-2019 8:56pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The international players will be back playing the week before Europe. There won't be much of a break unless they get knocked of the world cup early.

The QF's are 19/20 Oct so how long will they get after that?

Cookiemunster · 21-07-2019 2:04am

tmc1963 wrote: »

The QF's are 19/20 Oct so how long will they get after that?

Well I'm hoping that Ireland go a bit further than that. But Munster play Ulster on Nov 9th ( RWC final is Nov 2nd) and the first round in Europe is the week after. So even if we get knocked out in the quarters again, the players won't have much of a break.

Clegg · 21-07-2019 6:29pm

The Rugby Paper is reporting that an Anglo-Welsh league will happen in two years time. Irish and Scottish teams will probably join but that's not guaranteed.

The online reaction from Welsh fans is very strange however. How it's great for them money wise, a better fixture list and more travelling fans. The Pro 14 is terrible etc etc. But what do they expect to happen to them if they join with the English sides? Every team bar Exeter is losing money hand over fist. The London sides don't have travelling support and Leinster and Munster are two of the best sides in Europe. Lots of criticism of the Pro 14 for problems that seem to be of Welsh making.

Squidgy Black · 21-07-2019 6:36pm

Clegg wrote: »

The Rugby Paper is reporting that an Anglo-Welsh league will happen in two years time. Irish and Scottish teams will probably join but that's not guaranteed.

The online reaction from Welsh fans is very strange however. How it's great for them money wise, a better fixture list and more travelling fans. The Pro 14 is terrible etc etc. But what do they expect to happen to them if they join with the English sides? Every team bar Exeter is losing money hand over fist. The London sides don't have travelling support and Leinster and Munster are two of the best sides in Europe. Lots of criticism of the Pro 14 for problems that seem to be of Welsh making.

The TV money would be a significant bump for the Welsh teams, but unless they go private ownership and move away from the WRU they're not going to have the sort of money that the English clubs do.

A certain section of the Welsh fans seem to think that the Pro14 is what's driving their marquee players away from their clubs, and if they leave they'll get them back and become powerhouses both domestically and internationally.

Eod100 · 21-07-2019 6:54pm

Here we go again.. Yeah I've seen a lot of Welsh journalists on Twitter welcoming it but none of them could actually say what the proposal is. Seems not much more than speculation at this point without any concrete proposals. Would 4 teams be parachuted into Premiership? Wouldn't Champions teams be a bit ticked off when they have to fight to be promoted?

awec · 21-07-2019 8:36pm

Clegg wrote: »

The Rugby Paper is reporting that an Anglo-Welsh league will happen in two years time. Irish and Scottish teams will probably join but that's not guaranteed.

The online reaction from Welsh fans is very strange however. How it's great for them money wise, a better fixture list and more travelling fans. The Pro 14 is terrible etc etc. But what do they expect to happen to them if they join with the English sides? Every team bar Exeter is losing money hand over fist. The London sides don't have travelling support and Leinster and Munster are two of the best sides in Europe. Lots of criticism of the Pro 14 for problems that seem to be of Welsh making.

It would definitely be better for the Welsh sides if they played in a league with the English teams. It would certainly be better than the Pro14 for them, which is a product that really has struggled to capture the hearts and minds of Welsh rugby fans.

But I am skeptical, because I don't see what's in it for English teams, so I don't see why they'd go for it.

molloyjh · 21-07-2019 9:25pm

awec wrote: »

It would definitely be better for the Welsh sides if they played in a league with the English teams. It would certainly be better than the Pro14 for them, which is a product that really has struggled to capture the hearts and minds of Welsh rugby fans.

But I am skeptical, because I don't see what's in it for English teams, so I don't see why they'd go for it.

Is it the P14 or the regions that have struggled? There are huge issues with the regions as they stand and the WRU haven't done half as much for them as the IRFU have for the provinces. The lack of funding for regional rugby in Wales is ultimately what has driven their star players away. A lack of leadership has made it worse by creating and subsequently breaking all their rules re international selection. And that doesn't even touch on the local rivalry issues that have prevented the regions from reaching some of their target markets or the really dire relationship between the regions and the WRU.

Combine all of those issues and the regions are bound to struggle on the field. Once that happens the interest levels from the public will be low. Success breeds support more than anything else. And then you've a chicken and egg scenario where players and fans will be less likely to stick around when the performances are poor.

They don't get the support at the HEC games either. And there's never been much wrong with that competition. I reckon the P14, for whatever issues it had/has, is well down the list of why Welsh rugby is where it is. The Welsh fans will moan about most of those things above, including the P14. We just hear the P14 complaints more because we're involved in those conversations.

I agree though, I don't see what's in it for the English clubs to go down this road. The Welsh surely won't bring in equivalent levels of revenue so they'll end up worse off despite a bigger pot you'd imagine.

Digifriendly · 21-07-2019 10:42pm

molloyjh wrote: »

I agree though, I don't see what's in it for the English clubs to go down this road. The Welsh surely won't bring in equivalent levels of revenue so they'll end up worse off despite a bigger pot you'd imagine.

Tend to agree. Would Dragons draw a decent crowd in English club grounds? Revenue could suffer. I have predicted a British league for some time now but when it comes down to practicalities I'm not sure it would be attractive enough to the English clubs. Also if it happened it would take an element of excitement away from the CC. Part of the attraction for Pro 14 teams is facing English teams they wouldn't otherwise face. Maybe the answer is a European league and a European knock out cup to go alongside it.

LeinsterDub · 21-07-2019 10:45pm

awec wrote: »

It would definitely be better for the Welsh sides if they played in a league with the English teams.

Not when 2 or 3 of them get relegated it wouldn't

OldRio · 21-07-2019 10:56pm

Bless em. They will do what their masters want, the English.

Former Former · 21-07-2019 11:18pm

The story is that one (anonymous) English club chairman thinks a British league is inevitable.
It's a bloke expressing an opinion.

But what is being "reported" would include Ireland and Scotland just as much as it would the Welsh.

And we'd sell our grannies to be a part of it. Let's not delude ourselves.
.

Neil3030 · 22-07-2019 1:45am

Former Former wrote: »

And we'd sell our grannies to be a part of it. Let's not delude ourselves.
.

Fans might. The IRFU wouldn't.

Exclamation Marc · 22-07-2019 7:13am

Neil3030 wrote: »

Fans might. The IRFU wouldn't.

Would fans if they really thought about it?

Consider how the elite players are rested generally in Pro14 where they are pushed harder by Premiership teams. That would likely see Irish teams finish down the table and probably affect European seedings.

Plus, the Heineken Cup loses some gloss if you're generally playing 75% of the teams anyway.

So for me, nice idea but it doesn't suit our structure and we'd suffer.

Former Former · 22-07-2019 7:31am

Neil3030 wrote: »

Fans might. The IRFU wouldn't.

Yeah the IRFU would prefer to leave things as they are but that doesn't look sustainable. If either the Welsh or Scots jump, the IRFU will have to follow.

Eod100 · 22-07-2019 8:26am

Former Former wrote: »

Yeah the IRFU would prefer to leave things as they are but that doesn't look sustainable. If either the Welsh or Scots jump, the IRFU will have to follow.

So could be looking at a 20 team league if it's all current 12 Premiership teams and 4 provinces and 4 regions? Potentially 2 conferences of 10? Think there is a novelty of Welsh teams playing English teams in Champions and Challenge Cup with higher attendances, but wonder how sustainable those attendances would be week in week out.

stephen_n · 22-07-2019 8:50am

Eod100 wrote: »

So could be looking at a 20 team league if it's all current 12 Premiership teams and 4 provinces and 4 regions? Potentially 2 conferences of 10? Think there is a novelty of Welsh teams playing English teams in Champions and Challenge Cup with higher attendances, but wonder how sustainable those attendances would be week in week out.

Dragons wouldn’t survive in that league, the max the Welsh would bring is 3 but possibly 2 and two Scots teams. Or maybe 3 Irish 3 Welsh and 2 Scots.

Squidgy Black · 22-07-2019 8:52am

stephen_n wrote: »

Dragons wouldn’t survive in that league, the max the Welsh would bring is 3 but possibly 2 and two Scots teams. Or maybe 3 Irish 3 Welsh and 2 Scots.

I'd like to see the above.

But only to witness the absolute shítstorm of which Irish province would get axed.

Eod100 · 22-07-2019 9:27am

stephen_n wrote: »

Dragons wouldn’t survive in that league, the max the Welsh would bring is 3 but possibly 2 and two Scots teams. Or maybe 3 Irish 3 Welsh and 2 Scots.

Well yeah I think it would be 2, but just trying to figure out the proposals. No way IRFU would abandon 1 of the provinces.

awec · 22-07-2019 9:45am

Neil3030 wrote: »

Fans might. The IRFU wouldn't.

If the Welsh teams leave the Pro14 the Pro14 is as dead as the dodo, and the IRFU would literally sell their grannies to get into this new hypothetical Anglo-Welsh league.

Former Former · 22-07-2019 10:03am

Eod100 wrote: »

So could be looking at a 20 team league if it's all current 12 Premiership teams and 4 provinces and 4 regions? Potentially 2 conferences of 10? Think there is a novelty of Welsh teams playing English teams in Champions and Challenge Cup with higher attendances, but wonder how sustainable those attendances would be week in week out.

The short answer is, a lot more sustainable than the crowds the Welsh teams currently get. There are three English clubs within an hour's drive of the Welsh clubs and most of the others would be within two or three hours. The Welsh would be mad not to try for that and the Irish would do exactly the same in their shoes.

But that won't matter. The big prize here is being able to sell TV, marketing and sponsorship on an all-UK (or all UK and Ireland) basis. The English clubs would only allow the Celts in if there's a big payback for them and CVC would have to come up with some big numbers to convince them.

I can't see it happening within two years but money generally talks in these things.

Eod100 · 22-07-2019 10:45am

Former Former wrote: »

The short answer is, a lot more sustainable than the crowds the Welsh teams currently get. There are three English clubs within an hour's drive of the Welsh clubs and most of the others would be within two or three hours. The Welsh would be mad not to try for that and the Irish would do exactly the same in their shoes.
.

I get about the clubs being near Wales could bring away support and Welsh fans may travel down but not sure about the ones further away. I know Blues v Saracens was sold out Saracens v Blues was Saracens lowest attended game in pool stage. Just think the novelty might go out within a few seasons. Lot of grass is greener stuff.

Exclamation Marc · 22-07-2019 11:01am

Eod100 wrote: »

I get about the clubs being near Wales could bring away support and Welsh fans nay travel down bit but not sure about the ones furthermore away. I know Blues v Saracens was sold out Saracens v Blues was Saracens lowest attended game in pool stage. Just think the novelty might go out within a few seasons. Lot of grass is greener stuff.

Agree completely. Munster v Saracens in the ECPR was barely attended by Sarries fans and that was a knockout European game not hugely far from their home. If that doesn't tempt them, a rainy night for a league game in Cardiff certainly won't.

Former Former · 22-07-2019 11:16am

Eod100 wrote: »

I get about the clubs being near Wales could bring away support and Welsh fans may travel down but not sure about the ones further away. I know Blues v Saracens was sold out Saracens v Blues was Saracens lowest attended game in pool stage. Just think the novelty might go out within a few seasons. Lot of grass is greener stuff.

You might not have a packed house every week but you would still get a lot more travelling fans from Leicester or Northampton than you would from Zebre, Kings or Connacht. And it's a much more appealing away trip for the Welsh fans to follow their team a couple of hours up the motorway than having to fly to Ireland/Italy/wherever.

But again, it's not about the numbers of people who turn up. It's about how much cash CVC can drum up.

jacothelad · 22-07-2019 12:02pm

Eod100 wrote: »

I get about the clubs being near Wales could bring away support and Welsh fans may travel down but not sure about the ones further away. I know Blues v Saracens was sold out Saracens v Blues was Saracens lowest attended game in pool stage. Just think the novelty might go out within a few seasons. Lot of grass is greener stuff.

Llanelli or Swansea to each way.

Exeter 160 miles 3 hours.
Glos. 115 m 2 hours.
Sale 180 m 4 hours.
Bristol 93 m 2 hours.
Bath. 105m 2 hours.
Leices. and Saints are both about 200 miles and 3 and a half hours each way.
London is 4 hours away.
Coventry is over 3 hours.

VANG1 · 22-07-2019 12:12pm

The Welsh teams would want to up their game. Not surprising fans don’t turn up to watch them perform so badly in the pro 14. The fans would get sick of seeing them hammered in an even more competitive league.

Neil3030 · 22-07-2019 12:33pm

The issue with Welsh support was never really about logistics. The Welsh will more readily drive up the motorway than take a flight, that's obviously true, but only where (i) there's no Premier League soccer on at the same time and (ii) they have a prayer of beating the opposition. I can't see both those moons aligning all that often. There'd probably be a net increase in fans coming the other way though, certainly from the likes of Bristol, Bath and Exeter.

On the IRFU, their primary value in the Pro14 is in complete control of the international player welfare and development. The present model of mostly low intensity league games, dotted with occasional high intensity derbies/knockout games, is close to perfect for them in this regard. Unless adding the Welsh to the Premiership suddenly gives British teams the financial clout to pry away all our top players (and I really don't see how that might happen), I can see the IRFU remaining content with a weakened Pro10 or Pro-whatever.

slingerz · 22-07-2019 1:01pm

what makes it inevitable is that fact that CVC are looking to invest in the PRO14 having already acquired a share in the premiership. What happens with the italians/south africians however?

would be the death knell for the champions cup too though

AdamD · 22-07-2019 1:28pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

The issue with Welsh support was never really about logistics. The Welsh will more readily drive up the motorway than take a flight, that's obviously true, but only where (i) there's no Premier League soccer on at the same time and (ii) they have a prayer of beating the opposition. I can't see both those moons aligning all that often. There'd probably be a net increase in fans coming the other way though, certainly from the likes of Bristol, Bath and Exeter.

On the IRFU, their primary value in the Pro14 is in complete control of the international player welfare and development. The present model of mostly low intensity league games, dotted with occasional high intensity derbies/knockout games, is close to perfect for them in this regard. Unless adding the Welsh to the Premiership suddenly gives British teams the financial clout to pry away all our top players (and I really don't see how that might happen), I can see the IRFU remaining content with a weakened Pro10 or Pro-whatever.

Losing the Welsh might not strengthen the English clubs financials, but they'd definitely hurt the Pro 14s, which in turn would make it more difficult for the IRFU to keep their players.

Ultimately the English won't want the Welsh anyways.

awec · 22-07-2019 1:36pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

The issue with Welsh support was never really about logistics. The Welsh will more readily drive up the motorway than take a flight, that's obviously true, but only where (i) there's no Premier League soccer on at the same time and (ii) they have a prayer of beating the opposition. I can't see both those moons aligning all that often. There'd probably be a net increase in fans coming the other way though, certainly from the likes of Bristol, Bath and Exeter.

On the IRFU, their primary value in the Pro14 is in complete control of the international player welfare and development. The present model of mostly low intensity league games, dotted with occasional high intensity derbies/knockout games, is close to perfect for them in this regard. Unless adding the Welsh to the Premiership suddenly gives British teams the financial clout to pry away all our top players (and I really don't see how that might happen), I can see the IRFU remaining content with a weakened Pro10 or Pro-whatever.

There would not be a weakened pro14 or whatever, it would not be financially viable without the Welsh.

Neil3030 · 22-07-2019 2:42pm

awec wrote: »

There would not be a weakened pro14 or whatever, it would not be financially viable without the Welsh.

Why?

Former Former · 22-07-2019 2:50pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

Why?

It's barely viable now, no way could it continue without the Welsh.

The Lost Sheep · 22-07-2019 2:53pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

Why?

because it's not extremely viable right now and taking the Welsh, their TV money, etc etc out of the equation would mean league couldnt work.

ClanofLams · 22-07-2019 2:55pm

Were it to happen it will include the Irish anyway. English would have no interest in changing their league for four average Welsh teams.

I don’t see the two division thing working - are Leicester etc gonna be content to suddenly being a second division club? A second division that will be significantly harder than the Championship also.

The alternative of twenty plus teams in conferences doesn’t seem very realistic either.

Neil3030 · 22-07-2019 3:02pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

because it's not extremely viable right now and taking the Welsh, their TV money, etc etc out of the equation would mean league couldnt work.

Is anyone basing this on actual figures? What actual revenue loss would the Pro14 be looking at if it lost the Welsh teams?

Eod100 · 22-07-2019 3:08pm

Does the proposal not include the provinces? Would be interesting to know mechanism for opting out of Pro14. Can a union just withdraw at any stage with certain notice or something?

OldRio · 22-07-2019 3:20pm

Simon Thomas has an article on the proposed deal. Check Wales online. I'm on my mobile so can't post a link.

razorblunt · 22-07-2019 3:21pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

Is anyone basing this on actual figures? What actual revenue loss would the Pro14 be looking at if it lost the Welsh teams?

It's based on almost nothing. Just Simon Thomas doing his usual "playing English teams would be brilliant, woundln't it spiel" and then pretending he isn't shítting on the Pro 14 from a height when it restarts.

He didn't even bother to check if the Italians were tied in.

Eod100 · 22-07-2019 3:24pm

OldRio wrote: »

Simon Thomas has an article on the proposed deal. Check Wales online. I'm on my mobile so can't post a link.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/multi-million-pound-deal-could-16626191.amp?__twitter_impression=true

Squidgy Black · 22-07-2019 3:26pm

Eod100 wrote: »

Does the proposal not include the provinces? Would be interesting to know mechanism for opting out of Pro14. Can a union just withdraw at any stage with certain notice or something?

There is no actual proposal.

It's all hyperbole around the CVC deal for the Pro14, where it's reported it'll be £90 million for a 27% share.

From there, it's reports of a playoff between the winner of the Pro14, and the winner of the Premiership.

Which people are then coming to the conclusion of a British and Irish league using this as a stepping stone.

mike_cork · 22-07-2019 5:33pm

razorblunt wrote: »

It's based on almost nothing. Just Simon Thomas doing his usual "playing English teams would be brilliant, woundln't it spiel" and then pretending he isn't shítting on the Pro 14 from a height when it restarts.

Like much of his work....A lot of that Thomas article is if's and what if’s without any cold black and white facts (and contains his usual anti pro 14 undertones).
From a TV/CVC prospective who would you want to have on board this project? A passionately supported Irish province (take your pick of any of the 4) vs the likes of Leicester/Bath/wasps….Or Dragons? Ospreys?
This "British and Irish" league may or may not happen-But it certainly won’t happen within a 2 year timeline.

thomond2006 · 22-07-2019 6:30pm

I'd be happy enough in a B&I league, however IIRC the current Pro14 is set in stone for a number of seasons so I don't see a movement before then.

ClanofLams · 22-07-2019 10:30pm

Comprehensive piece on Rugbypass as to why an Anglo Welsh league makes no sense. It shouldn’t really be needed but the welsh delusion is so strong that seeing it written down in black and white might help somewhat. Though I see reality still isn’t hitting home for Simon Thomas so it might be all in vein.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/an-anglo-welsh-league-realistically-doesnt-hold-much-appeal-for-the-english-premiership

mike_cork · 22-07-2019 10:33pm

ClanofLams wrote: »

Comprehensive piece on Rugbypass as to why an Anglo Welsh league makes no sense. It shouldn’t really be needed but the welsh delusion is so strong that seeing it written down in black and white might help somewhat. Though I see reality still isn’t hitting home for Simon Thomas so it might be all in vein.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/an-anglo-welsh-league-realistically-doesnt-hold-much-appeal-for-the-english-premiership

Thanks for putting up the article.
This made me laugh:
"the Dragons also registered the same attendance for Timisoara Saracens as they did for Northampton Saints"

Former Former · 23-07-2019 12:17am

I don't know why people get so angry about this. It's all pie in the sky but you can't blame the Welsh for wanting something better.

The Pro14 is a fundamentally rubbish product. We Irish fans are fine with that because we are so dominant and it suits our wider needs perfectly. We don't love it for what it is, why should we expect the Welsh to?

The Welsh, on the other hand, are struggling badly on field and off field. If our situations were reversed and a better option was out there, no matter how unlikely, we'd be saying exactly the same.

Why the rage? Why do people take such delight in saying "they only have themselves to blame"?

Thrashssacre · 23-07-2019 12:19am

Former Former wrote: »

I don't know why people get so angry about this. It's all pie in the sky but you can't blame the Welsh for wanting something better.

The Pro14 is a fundamentally rubbish product. We Irish fans are fine with that because we are so dominant and it suits our wider needs perfectly. We don't love it for what it is.

The Welsh, on the other hand, are struggling badly on field and off field. If our situations were reversed and a better option was out there, no matter how unlikely, we'd be saying exactly the same.

Why the rage?

Probably for that exact reason, the current product suits us to the ground any large change like this will leave us with everything to lose and nothing much to gain.

errlloyd · 23-07-2019 12:19am

Agree with FF tbh. I guess some Welsh fans don't see the bigger picture of how the league aids their national team. But most Irish fans wouldn't see it either if roles were reversed.

Thrashssacre · 23-07-2019 12:21am

Former Former wrote: »

I don't know why people get so angry about this. It's all pie in the sky but you can't blame the Welsh for wanting something better.

The Pro14 is a fundamentally rubbish product. We Irish fans are fine with that because we are so dominant and it suits our wider needs perfectly. We don't love it for what it is.

The Welsh, on the other hand, are struggling badly on field and off field. If our situations were reversed and a better option was out there, no matter how unlikely, we'd be saying exactly the same.

Why the rage?

Probably for that exact reason, the current product suits us to the ground any large change like this will leave us with everything to lose and nothing much to gain.

ClanofLams · 23-07-2019 12:32am

Former Former wrote: »

I don't know why people get so angry about this. It's all pie in the sky but you can't blame the Welsh for wanting something better.

The Pro14 is a fundamentally rubbish product. We Irish fans are fine with that because we are so dominant and it suits our wider needs perfectly. We don't love it for what it is, why should we expect the Welsh to?

The Welsh, on the other hand, are struggling badly on field and off field. If our situations were reversed and a better option was out there, no matter how unlikely, we'd be saying exactly the same.

Why the rage? Why do people take such delight in saying "they only have themselves to blame"?

I don’t care about them wanting to play the English. But they constantly undermined the Pro14, behaving like children blaming it for all their problems and pushing conspiracy theories about the Irish having the refs in their pocket and other such nonsense.

Fundamentally rubbish is a harsh assessment, it definitely has flaws but it has good aspects too. There was few complaints coming from Wales during the days of the Ospreys being regular contenders and Cardiff in Heineken Cup semi finals.

Their problem (ironically given they love complaining about this aspect of the Irish model) stems from not having Union owned teams. Four independently owned teams are never going to be competitive, regardless of what league they play in, as was well pointed out in the article I linked to earlier.

Pro14 Season 2019-2020

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