The Holocaust

Please re-read the description of the file. Its not an interrogation file, its a 'listening/tapping' file. They are not giving evidence...:rolleyes:..... Still awaiting your point of view to be put forward instead of random statements, but beginning to lose interest/patience because you appear to be in the 'time wasting' department. Can't help wondering why you feel aggrieved at not being able to hold a mature discussion as you seem to be unable to formulate a concise point of view. last time...spell it out.....what is your stand on this issue?

Neutronale wrote: »

1. I think its self-evidently true that pre- and post-WW2 many Jews (and others) emigrated to the US. There were also huge population movements within Europe throughout the period.

2. What I actually said was that Hoess was tortured and his family threatened. This is a description of the threats and torture from Legions of Death, http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/6b7f516b50fac8e4b2a13cef15b33022.jpg

3. Your pov on the author is of little interest to me, you can call him all the names you want, I will read whatever views I see fit and decide myself about the truth or otherwise and the nature of the author etc.

You resurrect a thread that is almost 5 years old and have added nothing of note other than a few spurious or ambiguous comments, some of which hint at Holocaust denial. Read whatever you want, but do not expect anyone to take you seriously when you write the stuff that (as you mentioned) got you banned on another board forum. When you see someone like me agreeing with Reekwind :eek: on a topic you should have a close look at your position.

Testimony during interrogation of Jakob Hanreich, Waffen SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, captured in France 1944. (TS26/856 pages 231/232)

(1) Poland: Between 20 and 25th of September 1939, at least 50 Jews were murdered by the Music Pl of the Leibstandarte (LSAH) in the area of Burzeum. About 3 Km west of Warsaw. The order for this atrocity was given by the Obermusikmeister of the music Pl, Mueller-John. Those that were murdered had to dig their graves first, were then put in front of it and shot. Mueller-John was to be brought before a military court but evidently he was not punished for he appeared shortly afterwards at the Coy. Today Mueller John is leader of the Musikzug at the 1 Pz korps of the Leibstandarte.

(This incident is verified in Rupert Butlers book : “SS Leibstandarte, The History of the first Division 1934-1945 page 50” His Superior Officers in the German Army brought a charge against him for this atrocity but after an intervention by Hitler personally, the charges were dropped. Mueller-John committed suicide at the end of the war)


(2) Russia: During the time that PW had been in action in Russia, he was told by the then Comd of the III Btln LSAH, H.Stufue. Albert Frey that thousands of Jews had been murdered S of Mariupol and in Tanganrog by the SD Einsatzkommando . They were brought out of the towns by being told that they were to be transferred, but were brought in front of some A/Tk ditches. There they had to undress, descend into the ditch and were then shot. The A/Tk ditches were then covered with earth. PW stated that, as far as he knew, members of the LSAH were not concerned with this crime. The SD Einsatzkdo was lead by an Obersturmbannfuhrer whose name was kept secret and whom PW has never seen.

(Verification that the Leibstandarte and the Einsatzkommando unit were in Tanganrog and Mariupol and that Jews were massacred there can be found with a cursory internet search as this web page shows: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taganrog_during_World_War_II)


(3) II/2 Reg were particularly eager to execute the order to burn villages. The Bn accomplished the burning down of the villages by means of soldering lamps and called itself the Soldering Lamp Btln.

(This accusation is made against the Btln lead by Jochen Peiper, who had been an adjutant to Himmler until 1941, he came into the radar of the Western Allies in December 1944 when troops under his command were accused of murdering captured American Soldiers during the ‘Battle of the Bulge’, again a cursory search for his name will confirm the truth of Hanreich’s testimony about the ‘infamous’ Blowlamp Btln.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_Peiper.
This is not an accusation made against murder of the Jews, but it leads into the next piece of evidence and I have included it to verify the statements made for our next ‘witness’ as his character is questioned by the Allied intelligence Officers who looked at this evidence. They were not altogether satisfied that he was a deserter and they caught him out giving incorrect information about his name and rank. However, we can see today that his information about the ‘Blowlamp Btln’ has been verified and therefore we cannot take the rest of his story as sceptically as the British did at the time in 1944, perhaps they found his story to horrible to comtemplate.)


M370 – Schutze (SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler) Surrendered as a deserter Italy 8 Nov 43.

M236 – Oberfeldwebel (Sgt Major: Staff of the 334 Div) Captured Tunisia 9 May 43

Recordered 7th Feb 1944 - (WO208/4138 page 3)


M370 :….They were out with Blowlamps and machine guns: They shot the civilians and set fire to the houses with their blowlamps. A large blowlamp is painted on their vehicles. It has become a sort of badge and has become associated with bloody crimes.

M236: Is that an SS Battalion?

M370: ‘Leibstandarte’…….I drove out to fetch food supplies when I heard screaming and wailing to the right of the road. We drove slowly around a hill, through a sort of gorge. I wondered what was up there, so I got out – there was shrieking and wailing. ‘Here it is’ he said , we went over there, round the hill and into the gorge. A heavy machine gun had been placed there, there was another one there too, and the ‘Hauptsturmführer Rower - who had the German Cross in Gold – the swine – was standing there watching whilst all those civilians, women and children, old men. Boys, everyone, were being crowded into the gorge. Schwinded arrived – he couldn’t stand the sight of it either. A horrible….that draft-conducting ‘Battalion’ consists only of seventeen-eighteen and nineteen year old boys- those beasts, dogs, hyenas……….all the women had to strip and are examined: when one of those nice little girls stands in front of one of those lustful beasts, one of those idiots – the way he mishandles her with his bayonet! That is a fact. When we had gone a bit further a rifle went off; then we heard more rifle shots. You could still hear them screaming several miles off.

……Rower was a filthy young swine. It was always like this in the Jewish quarter in the ghetto in Warsaw. When I was in command of the ‘Zug,’ I had boys in the ‘Zug’ who had come over from the ‘Totenkopfstandarte’ in Warsaw and had taken part in the measures against the Jews there. The tales those devils told! First of all everyone above ground was rounded up and butchered. The lads described that too. They make use of the ‘Askaris’ who are sort of Russian volunteers, the Ukrainians….’Askaris’, they are bestial, uncivilised with the one idea:’The Jew spells death for you, seize him!’ It’s as though a kitten were put in front of a cat-trapper; he doesn’t like cats so he catches them. The ‘Askaris’ are just the same. They’ve had everything, including helpless women and children – ‘seize them’ it was a feast for those dogs. He said:

“They rounded them up and drove them down to the station. There was an ‘Askari’ walking beside me. There was a small boy of four, another of ten and a few old women bringing up the rear. The ten year old boy was carrying the child of four in his arms. They all had to walk very quickly, the boy couldn’t manage any longer and wanted to let the child walk, he was pulling him by his hand. So they dragged behind a little. The ‘Askari’ took the child by the head and foot and banged him on the ground. The ten year old boy flung himself on the child and the swine of an ‘Askari’ stabbed him in the back with his bayonet.” That’s humanity!

Many thanks to the previous two posters for their eloquence and well structured and concise points of view. I agree with both points of view in relation to Holocaust deniers. Yes, I do agree that the vast majority of them just do not want to see the truth that is before their eyes for reasons of prejudice, racism or as objectors to the state of Israel You can argue with them until you are blue in the face but they refuse to listen because they just don't want to believe, it doesn't suit their argument and their deep seated prejudices. They have no interest in engaging with rational and well read people who know their facts, they live in a world of smoke and mirrors and delusion. I don't know the actual number who died, but is 4.5 million less worthy than 6 million ?? Were some camps not death camps at all? I would say, does that matter...if you herd a large group of people into a confined area without proper medication, sanitation, nutrition or shelter, you are killing them anyway. There has never been any logical Holocaust denier story that has ever remotely swayed me not to believe that the Jews were murdered on a very large scale and in the must barbaric way.

But there may be a small minority hovering on the periphery of this group who are misguided rather than prejudiced, who feel there may be some questions to be answered, and if the door is always slammed before a discussion can start, this just makes them more suspicious that there is a 'cover up'. So, I would initially engage with an individual who appears skeptical and if they are willing to be swayed by a well founded argument (ie multiple stories from multiple sources and all strangely with a common thread), then I would continue to engage with them, if however, they are in the first category, I would quickly tire of their presence. As seen with the previous skeptic who even questioned the veracity of a story about an 'Einsatzgruppen' action which was recorded from a primary source and a German one to boot! That poster could not even set their stall out, there was just random disjointed statements with as much historical logic as a flea jumping on a dogs back.

We are still in a situation where these atrocities happened in living memory. The little four year old whose head was smashed on the ground would be the same age as my mother if he had been allowed to live, she has enjoyed many happy years that he was denied, simply because he was born into a Jewish family. There is no excuse for skeptics not to board a Ryan air flight to Poland or Latvia or Lithuania and investigate these stories for themselves before it's too late. How farsighted of the Americans and British to make the Germans visit the camps after they were liberated and for Eisenhower to do so knowing that some day, these loathsome people would question whether the holocaust actually happened.

I am posting a page of testimony from my file WO208/4138-300. This is to verify that such a file exists and to show anyone interested the format of these files.

We can see in this one that this is a 'hear say' testimony, the narrator has been told this story and has not witnessed it himself. His companion states that he has only ever heard rumours but seems to be unsure as to the truth of the matter.

We see also that the narrator is totally unaware that he is being overheard as he tells his companion that he has had to lie under interrogation as he did not want to admit that the Germans had been party to war crimes. The place mentioned 'Tarnopol' is in present day Ukraine and there is online evidence that the Jews of Tarnopol were massacred by Ukrainians and Germans during the occupation from 1941 to 1944. The narrator discusses the shooting of the Jews and of gassing them in vans. This method of execution has been widely reported in various publications also.

There is also mention of the Katyn atrocity. The Germans had made public the finding of these bodies in 1943. The Soviets blamed the Germans, but in fact it was the Soviets who had carried out the executions of Polish Officers in 1940.

As I mentioned in my first posts, I obtained this file as I was chasing a lead against a WSS General for war crimes that may or may not have been related to the Holocaust. I had read these pages when I got the file a few months back but I had not looked into them in depth as I was only particularly interested in one page. It was only when I saw this thread did I feel the need to publish these others in the public domain(as far as I know they have never been published anywhere else) looking at them again now it surprises me how many can be verified from unrelated sources.

Further proof if needed (not by me or other informed posters here) that these events really did happen. Not all the accounts given in my file will be 100% accurate, as RW pointed out, there will be inconsistencies as befits human error but these accounts are historic gold as they confirm the details from the perpetrators side and its obvious from some of the accounts that many of the German soldiers themselves were horrified at the excesses of the Nazi regime.

This page is a bit faint unfortunately but hopefully you can read it. It was recorded in June 1944 when the Allies were still trying to fight their way through Normandy but were beginning to capture a substantial number of POWs.

CB