Rainbow Cup 2021

sprucemoose · 10-06-2021 11:18am

Lost Ormond wrote: »

If you dont need the big screen then why have the costs of it open for the day when its not going to be used bar when the Ref/TMO interact....

as i pointed out in my response to another poster, i didnt realise they are temporary in general

Lost Ormond wrote: »

In most grounds the big screens are temporary so it would be big waste of money to have them when no crowds in
Dont see how its a "bodge job"...

if most grounds wont have screens in place then why not have the tmo be the sole arbiter for such decisions, it makes as much sense as most of the other law changes imo and would save some of the momentum-sapping jogging back and forth by the ref

Lost Ormond · 10-06-2021 11:21am

awec wrote: »

The money may have been welcome in the short term but the Pro14 should not underestimate the damage that can be done to an already weak brand by the sort of half-baked nonsense we saw in the RC, and that can cost them in the long run.

How do you think it will or could cost pro14 in long run?
Changes were needed and with South Africans not having played in some time if you waited until next september for new league they may have lost more players to england/france and wouldnt be as strong.
The South African sides, with springboks, SA tv money and potential hopefully for Saffers based in London, here to come to some games i dont see how it will cost Pro14 in long run...

Lost Ormond · 10-06-2021 11:26am

sprucemoose wrote: »

as i pointed out in my response to another poster, i didnt realise they are temporary in general

fair enough

if most grounds wont have screens in place then why not have the tmo be the sole arbiter for such decisions, it makes as much sense as most of the other law changes imo and would save some of the momentum-sapping jogging back and forth by the ref

Because the ref in the laws is the sole sole judge of fact and of Law and that shouldnt be changed

thomond2006 · 10-06-2021 11:29am

There's going to be a rebrand of the league for next season. If the SA teams turn up and take early scalps, the Rainbow Cup will be forgotten about very quickly.

sprucemoose · 10-06-2021 11:39am

Lost Ormond wrote: »

fair enough
Because the ref in the laws is the sole sole judge of fact and of Law and that shouldnt be changed

up until recently the ref didnt watch replays and while they technically made the final call, when decisions were review it was basically up to the TMO to decide. i wouldnt have seen any problem with a temporary return to this due to current circumstances as it mightve shortened stoppages. maybe it still wouldnt have but the jogging refs are farcical

sydthebeat · 10-06-2021 11:43am

any competition where you are essentially competing against teams that you dont actually play, is a farcical tournament.

however the RC wasnt the first of this type and wont be the last.
for what it was, it was acceptable.

Thornley is fine to criticise it, but offers absolutely no alternative.
His assertion that the RC was a 'risible joke' due to the Pro14 being cut short... well sorry Gerry but the Pro14 was much more a risible non competition joke than the RC was. It was actually disgraceful how non competitive the welsh, italian and scots were.

and also about the small screen for the ref being "amateurish".....
hope you never watch a top level game of soccer then, your head will explode.

thomond2006 · 10-06-2021 11:44am

Articles giving out about the RC is the new project player complaint. It's done to death and lazy. We get it.

sydthebeat · 10-06-2021 11:45am

thomond2006 wrote: »

There's going to be a rebrand of the league for next season. If the SA teams turn up and take early scalps, the Rainbow Cup will be forgotten about very quickly.

i cant wait to see what a fully loaded bulls / stormers team will do to the likes of the ospreys.

sprucemoose · 10-06-2021 11:45am

sydthebeat wrote: »

and also about the small screen for the ref being "amateurish".....
hope you never watch a top level game of soccer then, your head will explode.

in fairness, countless other and better reasons to not watch soccer

Jerry Attrick · 10-06-2021 11:55am

icdg wrote: »

This Gerry Thornley article this morning is worth a read, and unusually he’s not pulling any punches either:

But the problem was it’s integrity as a sporting competition......

Thornley didn't really write that, did he?

If so, then my already fading respect for his opinions lurches even further downwards!

As for the substantive content:

icdg wrote: »

The rules of the tournament were changed twice, mid way through the competition, first when it became clear the SA teams wouldn’t be travelling and then when it was decided to hold a final in Treviso after all. No one knew what they were playing for or what would determine qualification for the final.

I would have though that, reagrdless of the uncertainty, intelligent professional rugby teams would have known that, in general, it's better to try to win games than otherwise. Presumably Gerry thinks otherwise.

icdg wrote: »

Compare with Super Rugby Trans-Tasman, a similar five round competition with five teams of ten still in contention going into round 5. Now while there’s a lesson in uneven competition (in terms of NZ v Aus teams), there should never be a case where a round robin competition that short results in a final round consisting solely of dead rubbers.

It remains to be seen whether or not the final round of the Trans-Tasman tournament will be made up "solely of dead rubbers".

phog · 10-06-2021 12:13pm

awec wrote: »

The money may have been welcome in the short term but the Pro14 should not underestimate the damage that can be done to an already weak brand by the sort of half-baked nonsense we saw in the RC, and that can cost them in the long run.

All fine to be moaning but what would you have done to try and get the SA teams involved?

As I understand it the clubs and Unions bought into this and yes some of it might have been a money grab but equally I'm guessing that they wanted to play rugby in a very trying time for sport.

Just look at our national sport here at home, they've sat and watched rugby continue through most of the various covid related "lockdowns"

Like some fans are even saying they're bored of watching the InterPros.

icdg · 10-06-2021 12:17pm

Jerry Attrick wrote: »

Thornley didn't really write that, did he?
.

To be clear, what is below the link are my views, not a summary of what Thornley had written (although he is equally critical for different reasons) and you may blame autocorrect on the its!

Lost Ormond · 10-06-2021 12:22pm

sprucemoose wrote: »

up until recently the ref didnt watch replays and while they technically made the final call, when decisions were review it was basically up to the TMO to decide. i wouldnt have seen any problem with a temporary return to this due to current circumstances as it mightve shortened stoppages. maybe it still wouldnt have but the jogging refs are farcical

I think refs should be making the decisions tho.. and dont think returning to that should be the way forward. TMO should be more open to saying exactly what they want

sydthebeat wrote: »

any competition where you are essentially competing against teams that you dont actually play, is a farcical tournament.

however the RC wasnt the first of this type and wont be the last.
for what it was, it was acceptable.

Thornley is fine to criticise it, but offers absolutely no alternative.
His assertion that the RC was a 'risible joke' due to the Pro14 being cut short... well sorry Gerry but the Pro14 was much more a risible non competition joke than the RC was. It was actually disgraceful how non competitive the welsh, italian and scots were.

and also about the small screen for the ref being "amateurish".....
hope you never watch a top level game of soccer then, your head will explode.

agree with lot of that.... but i dont totally agree that any tournament you play without playing all sides is farcical.

Jerry Attrick · 10-06-2021 12:40pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

any competition where you are essentially competing against teams that you dont actually play, is a farcical tournament.

Like the European Champions Cup?

sydthebeat · 10-06-2021 1:06pm

Jerry Attrick wrote: »

Like the European Champions Cup?

the last bastardisation version, absolutely.

i dont particularly like the 20 team 5 pool version, though i can see why it exists.
the fact that only 3 of the 5 pool second placed teams get through is the problem, especially when they had a guaranteed spot for the italians

the last HC iteration was an abomination

the sooner they either restrict it to 16 teams of 4 x 4 and straight OFs.... or expend to 24 teams and do 8 x 3s with only top team qualifying, the better.

Caranica · 10-06-2021 4:12pm

I know why we had the derbies, but the all the same the lack of seeding made this competition a joke from day 1. Benneton have had one of the easiest runs to a final I've ever heard of.

phog · 10-06-2021 4:17pm

Caranica wrote: »

I know why we had the derbies, but the all the same the lack of seeding made this competition a joke from day 1. Benneton have had one of the easiest runs to a final I've ever heard of.

If Benetton were beaten by Glasgow and/or Connacht we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

icdg · 11-06-2021 12:56pm

Lions v Stormers now off too.

https://www.pro14.rugby/latest/news/r6-emirates-lions-v-dhl-stormers-cancelled

sydthebeat · 11-06-2021 3:08pm

I see young gio aplon is still tipping along for the bulls

On the bench for this weekend

Lost Ormond · 12-06-2021 4:45pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

the last bastardisation version, absolutely.

i dont particularly like the 20 team 5 pool version, though i can see why it exists.
the fact that only 3 of the 5 pool second placed teams get through is the problem, especially when they had a guaranteed spot for the italians

the last HC iteration was an abomination

the sooner they either restrict it to 16 teams of 4 x 4 and straight OFs.... or expend to 24 teams and do 8 x 3s with only top team qualifying, the better.

Going to 16 teams shouldnt happen even if you did more to help make the 2nd tier competition stronger as currently far too many sides treat it as an after thought and 16 teams with 2 qualifiers from each group wouldnt be much good IMO
24 teams with 8 groups of 3 wouldnt at all be better as would see too many sides losing their first game and then not bothering for rest.

sydthebeat · 12-06-2021 6:07pm

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Going to 16 teams shouldnt happen even if you did more to help make the 2nd tier competition stronger as currently far too many sides treat it as an after thought and 16 teams with 2 qualifiers from each group wouldnt be much good IMO
24 teams with 8 groups of 3 wouldnt at all be better as would see too many sides losing their first game and then not bothering for rest.

None of makes for any competition better than a straight 16 or 8*3 comp.

As it is (20 team 5 pool) once a team loses first two theyre disinterested...the knockouts on effect being that the 5 second place teams are in direct competition with teams they don't meet, and results against other teams they don't meet dictate their fortunes.

At least with 8 * 3 everyone knows to get out of the group you need to win the group.
The only teams you are in competition with in the group stages are the teams you play

Richie_Rich89 · 12-06-2021 7:22pm

Another possibility would be 8 groups of 4, with pool winners going through to Cup quarter-finals, 2nd place teams going into plate quarters and 3rd place teams into bowl quarters.