Rainbow Cup 2021

Sabre0001 · 09-06-2021 4:30pm

Some probably even more vocally

OldRio · 09-06-2021 4:30pm

VayNiice wrote: »

I wonder would the same people be calling it a farce of a competition if Munster had made it to the final?

I'm delighted for the Italians. You can only play what's in front of you so they deserve to be in this final.

In all honesty most have been calling it a farce since its inception.

thomond2006 · 09-06-2021 4:36pm

OldRio wrote: »

In all honesty most have been calling it a farce since its inception.

I'm not saying the Rainbow Cup wasn't a farce but the Pro14 was also a farce and if you look back at the season thread from 4-5 weeks in we were all saying it.

In isolation, the RC from a sporting pov was not good but there seems to be some short memories on here on how uncompetitive the Pro14 was.

sydthebeat · 09-06-2021 4:52pm

im actually happy they cut the Pro14 short for the rainbow cup

the pro14 this season was a disgrace. The Irish teams scored more and conceded less than the other 8 teams combined. it simply wasnt a competitive competition.
at least with the rainbow cup there was still, what, 4 teams which could have reached the NH spot going into the last round... and 2 of the 4 bokke sides topping the SA conference going into their last round.

bilston · 09-06-2021 6:47pm

Roll on next season is all I can say, but not before provincial rugby is put in the deep freeze for a couple of months. There's been too much of it and very little variety. It's been too much like Groundhog Day this season (much like life in general). The powers that be have done the best they can, we play in international tournaments and which isn't easy in the midst of a global pandemic. It also hasn't helped that the sport is becoming unwatchable with stoppages even five minutes while the officials run over to a small TV monitor to review if something vaguely illegal has happened or not. Keith Wood made a good point on OTB this morning that next season spectators in the grounds will not tolerate that....expect lots of slow handclaps!

Hopefully the Lions tour brings a bit of enjoyment and something original to our screens and even the two Ireland matches as well. Then there's the Rugby Championship (what channel will it be on?). So lots to look forward to, but please...no more endless provincial matches against the same teams week after week in competitions made up on the fly, where teams play other teams at random...not until the Autumn anyway.

Good luck to Benetton in the final though.

Digifriendly · 10-06-2021 7:37am

Absolutely spot on post. My views exactly. Rainbow Cup well intentioned as it may have been has been a bit farcical and I stopped watching matches live a couple of weeks into the competition. Youtube highlights have been sufficient.
Roll on the Lions.

phog · 10-06-2021 9:13am

The RC was due to have 42 Pool games with teams from 5 countries, 13 games were scheduled between teams from different countries yet only two were cancelled due to Covid. It brought in much needed funds to the club yet the competition seems to be getting a lot of unwarranted flak.

molloyjh · 10-06-2021 9:29am

phog wrote: »

The RC was due to have 42 Pool games with teams from 5 countries, 13 games were scheduled between teams from different countries yet only two were cancelled due to Covid. It brought in much needed funds to the club yet the competition seems to be getting a lot of unwarranted flak.

It was a makey uppy competition that had its first round the week before European SFs which in itself damaged the tournament as both Leinster and Ulster fielded weakened teams. With so few games most teams were out of it after 1 or 2 rounds because it was clear they weren't going to catch teams that won both of their games. So that meant a lot of dead rubbers. It was dominated by local derbies, something we've all seen more than enough of already this season so was just more of the same for the most part. We were geared up to see SA teams playing against P14 teams. That didn't happen.

Theres loads of reasons why the tournament was crap from a spectator perspective. I think the tournament was the right idea, but I also think it was completely s**t, pointless and uninteresting. It wasn't there for supporters, but that's okay. We'll all be better off for it next season so that makes it worthwhile.

PMC83 · 10-06-2021 9:31am

phog wrote: »

The RC was due to have 42 Pool games with teams from 5 countries, 13 games were scheduled between teams from different countries yet only two were cancelled due to Covid. It brought in much needed funds to the club yet the competition seems to be getting a lot of unwarranted flak.

I've enjoyed it. Yeah I'm a little tired of the interpros but theres been some quality games.

Mun V Blues
Mun v Con
Lein V Glasgow
Ben V Con

All very entertaining games that were hard to call.

awec · 10-06-2021 9:50am

It was just an unwanted extension of an incredibly dull Pro14 IMO.

I think I watched 1 game. Can't even remember what it was.

phog · 10-06-2021 9:50am

molloyjh wrote: »

It was a makey uppy competition that had its first round the week before European SFs which in itself damaged the tournament as both Leinster and Ulster fielded weakened teams. With so few games most teams were out of it after 1 or 2 rounds because it was clear they weren't going to catch teams that won both of their games. So that meant a lot of dead rubbers. It was dominated by local derbies, something we've all seen more than enough of already this season so was just more of the same for the most part. We were geared up to see SA teams playing against P14 teams. That didn't happen.

Theres loads of reasons why the tournament was crap from a spectator perspective. I think the tournament was the right idea, but I also think it was completely s**t, pointless and uninteresting. It wasn't there for supporters, but that's okay. We'll all be better off for it next season so that makes it worthwhile.

Obviously it was a makey up competition, it was to get the SA into a competition that they couldn't do with the Pro14. The RC was based on the Pro14 so we were always going to have more local derbies again, I think I read the IRFU wanted the InterPros to be kept in the format.

Was the RC any more crap than what was served up as the Pro14 this year - just look at the final pool tables the 4 Irish provinces miles out ahead of the rest and that after we played each other twice.

I really don't know what people expected from the RC.

irelandrover · 10-06-2021 9:55am

I think a lot of people decided at the start it was going to be a terrible tournament.

However I've enjoyed it. There's been some exciting games that could have went either way. We haven't seen any complete demolitions. Benneton have topped the Northern league, its annoying the way it finished but they were 4 from 4.

The pro14 itself was a worse league this year with the irish teams dominating.

PMC83 · 10-06-2021 10:04am

awec wrote: »

It was just an unwanted extension of an incredibly dull Pro14 IMO.

I think I watched 1 game. Can't even remember what it was.

If you haven't watched it I'll take your opinions on it with a pinch of salt.

People bitched and moaned about the PRO14 being long and boring. They cut it short and added in the Saffa teams (a pretty speculative punt) thinking they could spice things up. Teams lost out of playoff spots and the saffa thing fell through due to covid. BUT teams got much needed revenue, and many of those who actually watched it found there were some decent games played at high intensity. But People still not happy.

A lot of people just don't like the pro14 full stop, but those who do seem to have enjoyed it more of recent. The final will be an interesting watch.

thomond2006 · 10-06-2021 10:15am

phog wrote: »

Obviously it was a makey up competition, it was to get the SA into a competition that they couldn't do with the Pro14. The RC was based on the Pro14 so we were always going to have more local derbies again, I think I read the IRFU wanted the InterPros to be kept in the format.

Was the RC any more crap than what was served up as the Pro14 this year - just look at the final pool tables the 4 Irish provinces miles out ahead of the rest and that after we played each other twice.

I really don't know what people expected from the RC.

The original expectation was for cross hemisphere games. Once that didn't happen, any interest died. It was an ambitious proposal and Covid ruined it.

Thankfully, we still got the money from SA.

sprucemoose · 10-06-2021 10:17am

bilston wrote: »

while the officials run over to a small TV monitor to review

this!

can't understand why its been done this way. either show it on the large screen in the stadium (im presuming all the stadia used have them) or else just let the tmo make the decision. the jogging back and forth by the refs is a joke

Jerry Attrick · 10-06-2021 10:25am

sprucemoose wrote: »

this!

can't understand why its been done this way. either show it on the large screen in the stadium (im presuming all the stadia used have them) or else just let the tmo make the decision. the jogging back and forth by the refs is a joke

Evidently they don't.

They probably hired by the hosts for home games, but only when there are attendances in the ground.

Agree that it's nonsensical to see refs jogging maybe 70 metres to stare into a small monitor while trying to block the glare from floodlights or sun. Very amateurish.

sprucemoose · 10-06-2021 10:37am

Jerry Attrick wrote: »

Evidently they don't.

They probably hired by the hosts for home games, but only when there are attendances in the ground.

Agree that it's nonsensical to see refs jogging maybe 70 metres to stare into a small monitor while trying to block the glare from floodlights or sun. Very amateurish.

this makes a bit more sense so. ill admit ive only been following the munster games and i always presumed the screen was a permanent fixture but on further inspection it seems like its a temporary one. suppose the current situation makes sense so but it seems like a bit of a bodge job all the same

icdg · 10-06-2021 11:09am

This Gerry Thornley article this morning is worth a read, and unusually he’s not pulling any punches either:

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/pro14/round-of-dead-rubbers-a-fitting-finale-for-rainbow-cup-1.4588929?mode=amp

For me, the Rainbow Cup was a tournament with some great individual games, especially the first few weeks of Interpros (Leinster v Munster an unfortunate exception). And of course the money the SA teams brought cannot be sniffed at. But the problem was it’s integrity as a sporting competition. The rules of the tournament were changed twice, mid way through the competition, first when it became clear the SA teams wouldn’t be travelling and then when it was decided to hold a final in Treviso after all. No one knew what they were playing for or what would determine qualification for the final. Teams were playing schedules that were most definitely not equal. Now you can lay a large blame for that on the door of Covid, which is fair enough, but you can’t blame the public for not buying in. Even the eir Sport presenters were not selling it well (that may have much to do with the fact that the channel is essentially finished with the final being their very last studio broadcast).

Compare with Super Rugby Trans-Tasman, a similar five round competition with five teams of ten still in contention going into round 5. Now while there’s a lesson in uneven competition (in terms of NZ v Aus teams), there should never be a case where a round robin competition that short results in a final round consisting solely of dead rubbers.

Lost Ormond · 10-06-2021 11:11am

sprucemoose wrote: »

this!

can't understand why its been done this way. either show it on the large screen in the stadium (im presuming all the stadia used have them) or else just let the tmo make the decision. the jogging back and forth by the refs is a joke

If you dont need the big screen then why have the costs of it open for the day when its not going to be used bar when the Ref/TMO interact....

sprucemoose wrote: »

this makes a bit more sense so. ill admit ive only been following the munster games and i always presumed the screen was a permanent fixture but on further inspection it seems like its a temporary one. suppose the current situation makes sense so but it seems like a bit of a bodge job all the same

In most grounds the big screens are temporary so it would be big waste of money to have them when no crowds in
Dont see how its a "bodge job"...

awec · 10-06-2021 11:13am

The money may have been welcome in the short term but the Pro14 should not underestimate the damage that can be done to an already weak brand by the sort of half-baked nonsense we saw in the RC, and that can cost them in the long run.

sprucemoose · 10-06-2021 11:18am

Lost Ormond wrote: »

If you dont need the big screen then why have the costs of it open for the day when its not going to be used bar when the Ref/TMO interact....

as i pointed out in my response to another poster, i didnt realise they are temporary in general

Lost Ormond wrote: »

In most grounds the big screens are temporary so it would be big waste of money to have them when no crowds in
Dont see how its a "bodge job"...

if most grounds wont have screens in place then why not have the tmo be the sole arbiter for such decisions, it makes as much sense as most of the other law changes imo and would save some of the momentum-sapping jogging back and forth by the ref

Lost Ormond · 10-06-2021 11:21am

awec wrote: »

The money may have been welcome in the short term but the Pro14 should not underestimate the damage that can be done to an already weak brand by the sort of half-baked nonsense we saw in the RC, and that can cost them in the long run.

How do you think it will or could cost pro14 in long run?
Changes were needed and with South Africans not having played in some time if you waited until next september for new league they may have lost more players to england/france and wouldnt be as strong.
The South African sides, with springboks, SA tv money and potential hopefully for Saffers based in London, here to come to some games i dont see how it will cost Pro14 in long run...

Lost Ormond · 10-06-2021 11:26am

sprucemoose wrote: »

as i pointed out in my response to another poster, i didnt realise they are temporary in general

fair enough

if most grounds wont have screens in place then why not have the tmo be the sole arbiter for such decisions, it makes as much sense as most of the other law changes imo and would save some of the momentum-sapping jogging back and forth by the ref

Because the ref in the laws is the sole sole judge of fact and of Law and that shouldnt be changed

thomond2006 · 10-06-2021 11:29am

There's going to be a rebrand of the league for next season. If the SA teams turn up and take early scalps, the Rainbow Cup will be forgotten about very quickly.

sprucemoose · 10-06-2021 11:39am

Lost Ormond wrote: »

fair enough
Because the ref in the laws is the sole sole judge of fact and of Law and that shouldnt be changed

up until recently the ref didnt watch replays and while they technically made the final call, when decisions were review it was basically up to the TMO to decide. i wouldnt have seen any problem with a temporary return to this due to current circumstances as it mightve shortened stoppages. maybe it still wouldnt have but the jogging refs are farcical

sydthebeat · 10-06-2021 11:43am

any competition where you are essentially competing against teams that you dont actually play, is a farcical tournament.

however the RC wasnt the first of this type and wont be the last.
for what it was, it was acceptable.

Thornley is fine to criticise it, but offers absolutely no alternative.
His assertion that the RC was a 'risible joke' due to the Pro14 being cut short... well sorry Gerry but the Pro14 was much more a risible non competition joke than the RC was. It was actually disgraceful how non competitive the welsh, italian and scots were.

and also about the small screen for the ref being "amateurish".....
hope you never watch a top level game of soccer then, your head will explode.

thomond2006 · 10-06-2021 11:44am

Articles giving out about the RC is the new project player complaint. It's done to death and lazy. We get it.

sydthebeat · 10-06-2021 11:45am

thomond2006 wrote: »

There's going to be a rebrand of the league for next season. If the SA teams turn up and take early scalps, the Rainbow Cup will be forgotten about very quickly.

i cant wait to see what a fully loaded bulls / stormers team will do to the likes of the ospreys.

sprucemoose · 10-06-2021 11:45am

sydthebeat wrote: »

and also about the small screen for the ref being "amateurish".....
hope you never watch a top level game of soccer then, your head will explode.

in fairness, countless other and better reasons to not watch soccer

Jerry Attrick · 10-06-2021 11:55am

icdg wrote: »

This Gerry Thornley article this morning is worth a read, and unusually he’s not pulling any punches either:

But the problem was it’s integrity as a sporting competition......

Thornley didn't really write that, did he?

If so, then my already fading respect for his opinions lurches even further downwards!

As for the substantive content:

icdg wrote: »

The rules of the tournament were changed twice, mid way through the competition, first when it became clear the SA teams wouldn’t be travelling and then when it was decided to hold a final in Treviso after all. No one knew what they were playing for or what would determine qualification for the final.

I would have though that, reagrdless of the uncertainty, intelligent professional rugby teams would have known that, in general, it's better to try to win games than otherwise. Presumably Gerry thinks otherwise.

icdg wrote: »

Compare with Super Rugby Trans-Tasman, a similar five round competition with five teams of ten still in contention going into round 5. Now while there’s a lesson in uneven competition (in terms of NZ v Aus teams), there should never be a case where a round robin competition that short results in a final round consisting solely of dead rubbers.

It remains to be seen whether or not the final round of the Trans-Tasman tournament will be made up "solely of dead rubbers".

phog · 10-06-2021 12:13pm

awec wrote: »

The money may have been welcome in the short term but the Pro14 should not underestimate the damage that can be done to an already weak brand by the sort of half-baked nonsense we saw in the RC, and that can cost them in the long run.

All fine to be moaning but what would you have done to try and get the SA teams involved?

As I understand it the clubs and Unions bought into this and yes some of it might have been a money grab but equally I'm guessing that they wanted to play rugby in a very trying time for sport.

Just look at our national sport here at home, they've sat and watched rugby continue through most of the various covid related "lockdowns"

Like some fans are even saying they're bored of watching the InterPros.

icdg · 10-06-2021 12:17pm

Jerry Attrick wrote: »

Thornley didn't really write that, did he?
.

To be clear, what is below the link are my views, not a summary of what Thornley had written (although he is equally critical for different reasons) and you may blame autocorrect on the its!

Lost Ormond · 10-06-2021 12:22pm

sprucemoose wrote: »

up until recently the ref didnt watch replays and while they technically made the final call, when decisions were review it was basically up to the TMO to decide. i wouldnt have seen any problem with a temporary return to this due to current circumstances as it mightve shortened stoppages. maybe it still wouldnt have but the jogging refs are farcical

I think refs should be making the decisions tho.. and dont think returning to that should be the way forward. TMO should be more open to saying exactly what they want

sydthebeat wrote: »

any competition where you are essentially competing against teams that you dont actually play, is a farcical tournament.

however the RC wasnt the first of this type and wont be the last.
for what it was, it was acceptable.

Thornley is fine to criticise it, but offers absolutely no alternative.
His assertion that the RC was a 'risible joke' due to the Pro14 being cut short... well sorry Gerry but the Pro14 was much more a risible non competition joke than the RC was. It was actually disgraceful how non competitive the welsh, italian and scots were.

and also about the small screen for the ref being "amateurish".....
hope you never watch a top level game of soccer then, your head will explode.

agree with lot of that.... but i dont totally agree that any tournament you play without playing all sides is farcical.

Jerry Attrick · 10-06-2021 12:40pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

any competition where you are essentially competing against teams that you dont actually play, is a farcical tournament.

Like the European Champions Cup?

sydthebeat · 10-06-2021 1:06pm

Jerry Attrick wrote: »

Like the European Champions Cup?

the last bastardisation version, absolutely.

i dont particularly like the 20 team 5 pool version, though i can see why it exists.
the fact that only 3 of the 5 pool second placed teams get through is the problem, especially when they had a guaranteed spot for the italians

the last HC iteration was an abomination

the sooner they either restrict it to 16 teams of 4 x 4 and straight OFs.... or expend to 24 teams and do 8 x 3s with only top team qualifying, the better.

Caranica · 10-06-2021 4:12pm

I know why we had the derbies, but the all the same the lack of seeding made this competition a joke from day 1. Benneton have had one of the easiest runs to a final I've ever heard of.

phog · 10-06-2021 4:17pm

Caranica wrote: »

I know why we had the derbies, but the all the same the lack of seeding made this competition a joke from day 1. Benneton have had one of the easiest runs to a final I've ever heard of.

If Benetton were beaten by Glasgow and/or Connacht we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

icdg · 11-06-2021 12:56pm

Lions v Stormers now off too.

https://www.pro14.rugby/latest/news/r6-emirates-lions-v-dhl-stormers-cancelled

sydthebeat · 11-06-2021 3:08pm

I see young gio aplon is still tipping along for the bulls

On the bench for this weekend

Lost Ormond · 12-06-2021 4:45pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

the last bastardisation version, absolutely.

i dont particularly like the 20 team 5 pool version, though i can see why it exists.
the fact that only 3 of the 5 pool second placed teams get through is the problem, especially when they had a guaranteed spot for the italians

the last HC iteration was an abomination

the sooner they either restrict it to 16 teams of 4 x 4 and straight OFs.... or expend to 24 teams and do 8 x 3s with only top team qualifying, the better.

Going to 16 teams shouldnt happen even if you did more to help make the 2nd tier competition stronger as currently far too many sides treat it as an after thought and 16 teams with 2 qualifiers from each group wouldnt be much good IMO
24 teams with 8 groups of 3 wouldnt at all be better as would see too many sides losing their first game and then not bothering for rest.

sydthebeat · 12-06-2021 6:07pm

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Going to 16 teams shouldnt happen even if you did more to help make the 2nd tier competition stronger as currently far too many sides treat it as an after thought and 16 teams with 2 qualifiers from each group wouldnt be much good IMO
24 teams with 8 groups of 3 wouldnt at all be better as would see too many sides losing their first game and then not bothering for rest.

None of makes for any competition better than a straight 16 or 8*3 comp.

As it is (20 team 5 pool) once a team loses first two theyre disinterested...the knockouts on effect being that the 5 second place teams are in direct competition with teams they don't meet, and results against other teams they don't meet dictate their fortunes.

At least with 8 * 3 everyone knows to get out of the group you need to win the group.
The only teams you are in competition with in the group stages are the teams you play

Richie_Rich89 · 12-06-2021 7:22pm

Another possibility would be 8 groups of 4, with pool winners going through to Cup quarter-finals, 2nd place teams going into plate quarters and 3rd place teams into bowl quarters.