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Let's all talk about Lewis?

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    #452
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Gaoth Laidir wrote: »
    If you compare Lewis to Bottas during the latter's Merc career (2017+), Lewis has had only one technical DNF in that time compared to Bottas' eight. Add in Bottas' awful luck on many occasions (Baku puncture, Silverstone puncture a few laps before Lewis, pit fcuk-ups at Sakhir and again last week, etc.). Yes, Lewis is a better driver than Bottas, but damn does he get all the luck going.

    And I could make excuses for Hamilton’s luck in 2007 and 2016. It’s part of racing.

    Bottas isn’t in the same league as Rosberg, never mind Hamilton. On raw speed he isn’t far off, but he just doesn’t have enough fight in him and he’s also clearly suffering right now from a complete lack of confidence and it’s a shame to see.


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    #453
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users Posts: 7,506 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    Faugheen wrote: »
    And I could make excuses for Hamilton’s luck in 2007 and 2016. It’s part of racing.

    Bottas isn’t in the same league as Rosberg, never mind Hamilton. On raw speed he isn’t far off, but he just doesn’t have enough fight in him and he’s also clearly suffering right now from a complete lack of confidence and it’s a shame to see.

    its very easy to end up like that when you have very bad luck and are constantly reminded that you are second fiddle to lewis. valteri its james etc

    i agree he isnt championship winning level


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    #454
    Gaoth Laidir
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Faugheen wrote: »
    And I could make excuses for Hamilton’s luck in 2007 and 2016. It’s part of racing.

    Bottas isn’t in the same league as Rosberg, never mind Hamilton. On raw speed he isn’t far off, but he just doesn’t have enough fight in him and he’s also clearly suffering right now from a complete lack of confidence and it’s a shame to see.

    If he's so bad, how come he's finished second in the championship the past two seasons (with 3 DNFs)? That's to do with the car, is it, whereas with Lewis it's not?


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    #455
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Gaoth Laidir wrote: »
    If he's so bad, how come he's finished second in the championship the past two seasons (with 3 DNFs)? That's to do with the car, is it, whereas with Lewis it's not?

    I guess you clearly missed the part where I said Bottas is very fast.

    I also made the point to highlight how Hamilton has performed against team-mates because there are two drivers in every car. It’s obvious the Mercedes is the fastest car on the grid but it’s up to the other driver to challenge him. He has had Alonso, Kovalainen, Button, Rosberg and Bottas as team-mates - three World Champions.

    Of course the car has helped Hamilton but there’s a reason that except for Rosberg in 2016 that nobody has been able to lay a glove on him. He has a team-mate in the same care since 2014 and has lost once, which you could argue was part in down to bad luck with his engine going in China (or was it Malaysia?).

    Bottas made life difficult for Hamilton in Barcelona. He should have been doing that in 2017/2018, not when his confidence is shot and he’s already accepted his place as Hamilton’s number 2. Like I said, no fight, no bite, everything Rosberg had and everything Rosberg gained after losing to Hamilton.


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    #456
    barryribs
    Registered Users Posts: 712 ✭✭✭barryribs


    I don't follow the race thread but was there any discussion about Sainz reversing onto the track within a couple of feet of Giovinazzi?



    From the Imola thread;


    Are you allowed reverse onto the track?
    They should make a rule where you are not allowed to reverse during a race. During practice it would be fine, but during the race, that's your bad!!
    How was Hamilton not punished for reversing the car back onto the track. There was definitely cars coming through (McLaren)?
    That was my first thought as well, I'm sure there was something about that a few years ago, but I'm also thinking that it might be that your not allowed any reverse movement in the pits
    Oh I am after seeing the footage from Vettels car with Lewis reversing onto the track , that does not look good. I know there are yellow flags but that should be looked at.


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    #457
    Gaoth Laidir
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    It definitely looked very dangerous when he reversed out just as (I think) Mazepin was taking the corner. Surprised he didn't get a penalty for it.


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    #458
    skipper_G
    Registered Users Posts: 14,623 ✭✭✭✭skipper_G


    barryribs wrote: »
    I don't follow the race thread but was there any discussion about Sainz reversing onto the track within a couple of feet of Giovinazzi?



    From the Imola thread;

    I don't believe it was mentioned


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    #459
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    skipper_G wrote: »
    I don't believe it was mentioned

    Of course it wasn’t.


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    #460
    iffandonlyif
    Registered Users Posts: 561 ✭✭✭iffandonlyif


    barryribs wrote: »
    I don't follow the race thread but was there any discussion about Sainz reversing onto the track within a couple of feet of Giovinazzi?
    Faugheen wrote: »
    Of course it wasn’t.

    They are so obviously different, if only because Sainz isn't fighting for the championship.

    I can't wait till Hamilton retires and this insane sensitivity around criticism of him can disappear with him.


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    #461
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,998 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    barryribs wrote: »
    I don't follow the race thread but was there any discussion about Sainz reversing onto the track within a couple of feet of Giovinazzi?



    ...

    I wasn't participating in the race thread but I was watching the race with a friend and we both said it. The commentators also said it. Surprised there wasn't a penalty for it. Seemed dangerous to me.


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    #462
    barryribs
    Registered Users Posts: 712 ✭✭✭barryribs


    iffandonlyif wrote: »
    They are so obviously different, if only because Sainz isn't fighting for the championship.

    I can't wait till Hamilton retires and this insane sensitivity around criticism of him can disappear with him.
    The actions of the drivers in question are not that different at all, in fact the speed at the top hairpin in Imola is much lower than the turn where Sainz went off today. Its just the reaction that one gets on here vs another is very different.


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    #463
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    iffandonlyif wrote: »
    They are so obviously different, if only because Sainz isn't fighting for the championship.

    I can't wait till Hamilton retires and this insane sensitivity around criticism of him can disappear with him.

    So it’s ok for Sainz to do it and not Hamilton because of the fact the latter is fighting for the title?

    That isn’t criticism, that’s literally applying rules to him that don’t exist and letting everyone else away with it.

    All I ask for is those who make such a furore about anything Hamilton does to apply that same anger and shock when other drivers do it.

    You have confirmed that it’s an outrage because it’s Hamilton, not because you actually care about the rules and safety of the sport.


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    #464
    Lawlesz
    Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭Lawlesz


    Faugheen wrote: »
    So it’s ok for Sainz to do it and not Hamilton because of the fact the latter is fighting for the title?

    That isn’t criticism, that’s literally applying rules to him that don’t exist and letting everyone else away with it.

    All I ask for is those who make such a furore about anything Hamilton does to apply that same anger and shock when other drivers do it.

    You have confirmed that it’s an outrage because it’s Hamilton, not because you actually care about the rules and safety of the sport.

    You are literally doing your usual again, and answering a question that wasn't asked.

    The question was: "Was it mentioned"

    Someone else said probably because Sainz isn't battling for the championship..

    You accuse that person of applying different rules to Hamilton and Sainz.

    If the question above was "Should Sainz have received a penalty" and received the reply about not battling for the championship, then your point would stand. But you have twisted it again as you did all the day yesterday. It is just bizarre.

    You seriously need to take off your blinkers, it is literally stifling any kind of rational debate. This forum gets more and more like the football forum every day.

    For what it is worth... It was incredibly dangerous, and worse than Hamilton at Imola. But truth be told, with everything else going on, I had forgotten about it.

    And also, as an example, compare the coverage of Ocons retirement, or Russel not taking the restart (it wasn't even mentioned) to Hamiltons lockup... In general, incidents out front receive more coverage and discussion. If you can't cope with that, then you need to find someone else to follow.


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    #465
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    2011 wrote: »
    So essentially you are saying the years he didn’t win the world championships are the years that he didn’t have the best car?
    You have just made my point.

    How have I made your point?

    You could say he had the best car in 2007 and threw that away as well, he had one of the best in 2010, didn't win. One of the best in 2012, didn't win then either. 2016 springs to mind as well...


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    #466
    barryribs
    Registered Users Posts: 712 ✭✭✭barryribs


    That was an absolutely incredible drive, I didn't see him catching the Ferrari even after bottas letting him through. One of his biggest strengths we've seen time and time again is his ability to recover from bad situations -albeit with luck today with the red flag.

    I'm on the fence about the penalty, max got his elbows out plenty earlier in the lap and I suspect he was going to run wide to hold the position anyway, as he did at turn 1. Both red bull and Mercedes behavior around it is less than ideal. Horner complaining that noboy overtakes into copse and Perez did exactly exactly that about 20 minutes later.



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    #467
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,998 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Daily Mail: Lord Hain accuses Christian Horner of giving 'racists an excuse to let fly' after Hamilton criticism.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-9807807/Lord-Hain-accuses-Christian-Horner-giving-racists-excuse-let-fly-Hamilton-criticism.html

    I disagree with Lord Hain on this. There is room for legitimate criticism of Hamilton and the consequences of his crash with Max. If some racists want to have a go at Lewis about his race, that doesn't mean Christian Horner was in the wrong to criticise Hamilton about the incident which had absolutely nothing to do with his race.

    Every criticism of a black person isn't automatically a racist attack. Nor should horner refrain from criticising Hamilton about a legitimate mistake he made, just in case racists will chime in with racist sentiment.

    You can't account for racists and normal people can't refrain from legitimate criticism of a black man in case racists get involved and make it about race.



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    #468
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117643146#Comment_117643146

    Agree with you on this. It does seem to be a massive leap on Hains part that if you criticise Hamilton you are racist or giving power to racists.

    Racists will be racist regardless of what a team boss says, that is what makes them so repulsive.



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    #469
    MadYaker
    Registered Users Posts: 12,158 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117628596#Comment_117628596

    Wrong. He never said you shouldn't overtake at copse, he said you shouldn't stick a wheel up the inside a copse, especially when the overtake isn't even on.



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    #470
    barryribs
    Registered Users Posts: 712 ✭✭✭barryribs


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729440#Comment_117729440

    Your right, thats what he said. I was recalling it straight after the race. After the 3 weeks, 400 comments and 45 different angles on it, I still think its a racing incident.



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    #471
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,792 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117358100#Comment_117358100

    In my opinion, Bottas is playing it very smart right now. The perfect number 2 driver to Hamilton. Why would Merc risk taking on Russel who might compete with Hamilton, when they have such an ideal 2nd place driver who doesn't interfere with Hamilton's championship charge in any way, in fact seems to compliment it nicely.



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    #472
    flazio
    Registered Users Posts: 12,849 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117732787#Comment_117732787

    Because Red Bull have brought in a more competitive no. 2 in Perez.



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    #473
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,998 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117732790#Comment_117732790

    And they know Russel is so desperate to get Into the Mercedes that he would probably sign a contract saying he has to support Hamilton. He knows he can bank on waiting a couple of seasons and he'll be the no.1 in the team when Hamilton retires.



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    #474
    barryribs
    Registered Users Posts: 712 ✭✭✭barryribs


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117732790#Comment_117732790

    He's been managing the battle with Perez pretty comfortably, despite what the standings show. He always seems to be on the pace and looked to have turned a corner after France, before the brain fade in Hungary. Over the course of the season, I expect him to finish 20-40 points ahead. If I were in Mercedes shoes, I'd be looking to extend for a year and then bring Russell in.



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    #475
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,998 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117733256#Comment_117733256

    It's not a popular opinion but I agree that Bottas has the measure of Perez. But that's not the only consideration. They also have to manage the future and coach their team leader for the future. They might prefer to have a clear no.1 and no.2. and avoid the Rosberg-Hamilton situation. But this is different. That involved 2 drivers who were young and at their peak. Now we have a team leader and a young challenger.

    Mercedes prefer to avoid intrateam battles but in the interest of continuity, they will most likely bite the bullet and bring in Russell for next year- even if that brings some problems with it, it's the right decision for the future.

    Hamilton will advocate for keeping Bottas, as he has Bottas in hand -like the way Vettel famously advocated for kimi when Ferrari wanted to promote Leclerc. It makes sense for the lead driver to protect their lead. But I still think Mercedes will promote Russell.



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    #476
    AMKC
    Registered Users Posts: 15,642 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    So Autosport recon that 2013 was Hamiltons worst year at Mercedes which is to be expected considering he had just joined the team and 2018 was his best year.


    I think his worst year was 2016 and his best year was 2020.

    What do ye think?

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



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    #477
    artanevilla
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭artanevilla


    I think his worst year has to be 2022.



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    #478
    Schorpio
    Registered Users Posts: 1,232 ✭✭✭Schorpio


    I'd also say that his worst year was the season just gone (2022), and his best was 2021. (Ironically neither year he won the Championship.)

    2021; I don't think we have ever before witnesses such a high level of driving performance by two drivers, Lewis being one of them. The standard was just incredible, and I think it will be overlooked as Lewis' "best" year just because he didn't ultimately win the Championship. (Had the last lap in Abu Dhabi gone differently, I reckon people would be clamoring over themselves to proclaim it as Lewis' best year).

    I'm sure some of Lewis' fans would justify 2022 as the car not being good enough, and while there's merit in that, I would equally write off some of his "best" years as the car was so dominant (and his team-mate was a dedicated no.2). The door swings both ways.



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