2020 EV Scrappage scheme

Muahahaha · 17-06-2019 12:12pm #1

Its looking like the Govt. are going to introduce a scrappage scheme (similar to the one in the 1990's) in 2020. If it goes ahead it will apply to petrols and diesels being scrapped in favour of electric.

Its unclear as yet what the financial incentive will be from the Govt. but it will come on top of other incentives already available such as VW offering up to €5k to go electric.

Might be wise for anyone considering buying a new car to hold off until the full details and T&Cs are available. The scheme itself isn't yet confirmed but has been recommended by the climate action committee in the Dail and it is expected it will be acted upon.

biko · 17-06-2019 12:19pm

https://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/new-scrappage-plan-to-lure-motorists-away-from-petrol-and-diesel-cars-37903581.html

March 12 2019 2:30 AM
A scrappage scheme aimed at getting motorists to switch from petrol and diesel cars to electric vehicles should be explored as part of the State's bid to tackle climate change, TDs and Senators says.

A draft report by a cross-party group of politicians has been probing how the Government can encourage people to reduce their carbon footprint.

There has been disagreement over proposals for carbon tax, but a scrappage scheme is believed to have widespread support among members of the Joint Committee on Climate Action.

antodeco · 17-06-2019 4:32pm

In that government report it says "Also on transport, the plan is expected to confirm that the sale of new petrol and diesel cars will be banned from the year 2030. It is also proposing to stop granting NCT certificates for petrol and diesel cars from 2045 effectively removing them from our roads by that date"

Whoever wrote that piece assumes that cars without an NCT dont exist. I wonder what that will mean for any classic car owners at that stage.

Muahahaha · 17-06-2019 5:08pm

antodeco wrote: »

Whoever wrote that piece assumes that cars without an NCT dont exist. I wonder what that will mean for any classic car owners at that stage.

There would have to be a derogation for classic cars, they couldnt just shut down that market overnight.

That said if all diesels and petrols are being phased out then getting petrol to actually run a CC might become fairly difficult as petrol stations close down. That plan is 26 years away though, a long time off.

antodeco · 17-06-2019 5:11pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

There would have to be a derogation for classic cars, they couldnt just shut down that market overnight.

That said if all diesels and petrols are being phased out then getting petrol to actually run a CC might become fairly difficult as petrol stations close down. That plan is 26 years away though, a long time off.

Might be a case of having a home heating tank turned into a normal petrol tank for the hobby! But I agree, 26 years is a long way away. One of mine would be 68 years old by then! Ill probably have to worry about the zombie alien invasion before then!

Nikki Sixx · 17-06-2019 5:11pm

The government ****e on about a lot of things. Including broadband in every home.

Isambard · 17-06-2019 6:16pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

There would have to be a derogation for classic cars, they couldnt just shut down that market overnight.

That said if all diesels and petrols are being phased out then getting petrol to actually run a CC might become fairly difficult as petrol stations close down. That plan is 26 years away though, a long time off.

there already is. Classic cars over 40 years old are exempt. Whether cars survive long enough to become exempt is another matter

Muahahaha · 17-06-2019 6:56pm

antodeco wrote: »

Might be a case of having a home heating tank turned into a normal petrol tank for the hobby! But I agree, 26 years is a long way away. One of mine would be 68 years old by then! Ill probably have to worry about the zombie alien invasion before then!

By 2045 you'll have added wings and a flying kit to your classic car and then you can just land at the airport and fill up with aviation fuel :pac:

As an aside, can anyone remember the value of the 1990s scrapage scheme? iirc it was IR£3,000 off the price of a new car when getting a 10 year old scraped. With inflation and change to the euro we'd need any new scrapage scheme to be at the level of €6,000 or so to make it worthwhile.

Phileas Frog · 17-06-2019 7:52pm

Cars older than 40 years are NCT exempt

antodeco · 17-06-2019 8:53pm

Phileas Frog wrote: »

Cars older than 40 years are NCT exempt

I know (I have several myself). However, in the article it says that NCTs will not be given to petrols or diesels anymore, effectively making them disappear

17-06-2019 9:15pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

....

As an aside, can anyone remember the value of the 1990s scrapage scheme? iirc it was IR£3,000 off the price of a new car when getting a 10 year old scraped. With inflation and change to the euro we'd need any new scrapage scheme to be at the level of €6,000 or so to make it worthwhile.

Was 1k.... Most manufacturers matched it iirc. Except Fiat

Atlantic Dawn · 17-06-2019 9:17pm

Sounds like a dumb idea to scrap perfectly good cars to have a new one built in its place at €30k plus and the cost in emissions and resources to build it.

17-06-2019 9:21pm

Residual values shall be hit....Im glad I bought with the intention of keeping the Sorento 5 to 8 years.

I imagine it'll be harder for garages to shift ICE stuff now too maybe.

Loony really but sure such is life.

Duke O Smiley · 17-06-2019 9:22pm

antodeco wrote: »

I know (I have several myself). However, in the article it says that NCTs will not be given to petrols or diesels anymore, effectively making them disappear

Not even the UK are proposing something that harsh. Never in a million years will little Leo or anyone who follows him subsequently be allowed pull off something like that

Not if the Healy-Rae's can do something about it either

17-06-2019 9:36pm

If you can't buy one new from 2030 no nct from 2045 isn't the end of the world.
Throw in a classic exemption and most will be OK

I wonder will this have an immediate effect.... A scrappage scheme will cost the exchequer a few quid. Whatabout the homeless etc etc.

Muahahaha · 17-06-2019 9:53pm

Augeo wrote: »

I wonder will this have an immediate effect.... A scrappage scheme will cost the exchequer a few quid. Whatabout the homeless etc etc.

I would more see it as them just taking a small hit on the huge taxation they already gather through car sales. Open to correction but between VAT, VRT and excise isnt about 50-55% of the price of a new car taxation for the exchequer? So if they offer a €6k grant on a 30k car they are still taxing it at around the 40%-45% level

17-06-2019 9:59pm

EVs are already low in tax take compared to ICE.

Nikki Sixx · 17-06-2019 10:08pm

Augeo wrote: »

If you can't buy one new from 2030 no nct from 2045 isn't the end of the world.
Throw in a classic exemption and most will be OK

I wonder will this have an immediate effect.... A scrappage scheme will cost the exchequer a few quid. Whatabout the homeless etc etc.

You are right there are bigger issues to tackle like homelessness. But the government will go for the headline grabbing and trendy decision. I can see huge changes made in the next two or three budgets. Politicians are just flying a kite here, seeing what the public mood is like. With the surge in support for the Green Party, Leo sees a chance to jump on the climate change bandwagon.

bazz26 · 17-06-2019 10:08pm

And they already have grants.

bazz26 · 17-06-2019 10:12pm

Climate Change = buzzword for introduction of new taxes. A government's wet dream.

kyote00 · 18-06-2019 12:50am

They have probably stalled the EV market also in the short term....why buy now and not wait until whatever grants are available

The last great green idea they had inflicted fleets of stinking diesels across the country....

Nikki Sixx · 18-06-2019 1:01am

kyote00 wrote: »

They have probably stalled the EV market also in the short term....why buy now and not wait until whatever grants are available

The last great green idea they had inflicted fleets of stinking diesels across the country....

I think a lot of people are holding out for better batteries with a longer range and more charging points. At the moment the country couldn’t sustain even a quarter of the population driving electric vehicles.

Notch000 · 18-06-2019 4:44pm

there is already a massive shortage of precious metals for eV batteries, where they are planning on finding supply for hundreds of millions more in anyones guess (world supply not just Ireland). The EV are totally over priced compared to the IC engines. Batteries aside they are much easier to build & assemble than traditional ICs.

18-06-2019 6:15pm

Notch000 wrote: »

there is already a massive shortage of precious metals for eV batteries, where they are planning on finding supply for hundreds of millions more in anyones guess (world supply not just Ireland). The EV are totally over priced compared to the IC engines. Batteries aside they are much easier to build & assemble than traditional ICs.

There are no precious metals in the batteries and no shortage of materials used. The state of the art Li-ion NCM batteries have 8:1:1 ratio of Nickel, Cobalt, Manganese in their cathode and Lithium salts in their anode in a graphite layer. The rest is mainly made of Aluminium body and some polymer as the separator between the anode and cathode.

The Cobalt is the only mineral there that is potentially short in supply but even that is readily available where other metals like Zinc and Copper are currenlty mined. Just that until now there have been not enough demand to actually process it. This is obviously changing now as demand is suddenly there. "When reserves are getting low just dig out more holes in the ground to find more reserves."

Also the battery chemistries are changing all the time and the latest cells have fraction of Co per kWh compared to old generations and if we really eventually run out the battery makers will just develop a chemistries that don't rely on Co.

Edit: And as my signature confirms I agree with you about the current prices. But this will change soon enough when the electric cars become the norm. The manufacturers will need to compete against each other like now with conventional cars.

Gumbo · 18-06-2019 10:47pm

Nikki Sixx wrote: »

I think a lot of people are holding out for better batteries with a longer range and more charging points. At the moment the country couldn’t sustain even a quarter of the population driving electric vehicles.

Current crop of cars do 450km and you should be charging at home over night in my opinion.

Del2005 · 19-06-2019 1:35am

kceire wrote: »

you should be charging at home over night in my opinion.

Not much use for people who don't have a driveway and paying a premium, compared night rate for people who can charge at home, to use the public network won't incentivise them to buy one.

Gumbo · 19-06-2019 10:03am

Del2005 wrote: »

Not much use for people who don't have a driveway and paying a premium, compared night rate for people who can charge at home, to use the public network won't incentivise them to buy one.

I agree, if you look at my other posts on this, i'm defending people in apartments and town houses.

Apartment developments with basement and designated car parking is possible. Each spot has to to be ran back to the apartment meter, which sometimes is in the basement. Its work alright, but ive had it done before.
Hard part is forcing Management Company approval.

Town houses are possible too, but it involves excavating the ground to lay the cables in order to put a charging post in or close to the spot. It could be streamlined if every spot was done at the same time.

Ive also had to go through the Planning process for some people in this regard.

19-06-2019 10:37am

kceire wrote: »

..............

Apartment developments with ..........designated car parking is possible. ..........

Town houses are possible too, but it involves excavating the ground to lay the cables in order to put a charging post in or close to the spot. It could be streamlined if every spot was done at the same time............

I made the point at our AGM last year that installing charging points for the designated spots is not much more disruptive then what Irish water did to install the water meters in our complex.
Cost would vary house to house of course.......... my spot is about 3m from the my metre so not too bad for me. Some folk would be 3 or 4 times that though.

19-06-2019 10:37am

kceire wrote: »

I agree, if you look at my other posts on this, i'm defending people in apartments and town houses.

Apartment developments with basement and designated car parking is possible. Each spot has to to be ran back to the apartment meter, which sometimes is in the basement. Its work alright, but ive had it done before.
Hard part is forcing Management Company approval.

Town houses are possible too, but it involves excavating the ground to lay the cables in order to put a charging post in or close to the spot. It could be streamlined if every spot was done at the same time.

Ive also had to go through the Planning process for some people in this regard.

Here is where the government will need to work with building and infrastructure experts to bring out legislation guaranteeing access to charging where possible. Not every cable need to termitate to your own meter in the future. It's enough just to have a smart charger connected to power and then authentication and bill sent to the owner. And the owner of the power supply reimbursed for the electricity used.

Ecars originally wanted to bill your public charging with your house electricity bill which would be a great system tbh. Maybe some power company will adopt the idea going forward. Would be great for shared chargers in an apartment or street for example.

Del2005 · 19-06-2019 4:50pm

kceire wrote: »

I agree, if you look at my other posts on this, i'm defending people in apartments and town houses.

Apartment developments with basement and designated car parking is possible. Each spot has to to be ran back to the apartment meter, which sometimes is in the basement. Its work alright, but ive had it done before.
Hard part is forcing Management Company approval.

Town houses are possible too, but it involves excavating the ground to lay the cables in order to put a charging post in or close to the spot. It could be streamlined if every spot was done at the same time.

Ive also had to go through the Planning process for some people in this regard.

What about developments with unassigned parking? Also to do it properly the whole development should be done at once and that would involve agreement at the AGM and then an increased maintenance charge to cover it, the sinking fund isn't for this. How many developments will manage this.

The simple solution would be to allow people in MUDs to use their domestic rates for changing regardless of where they charge, digging up every MUD to run thousands of km of cables isn't very environmentally friendly!, and people not in MUDs pay the premium rate when away from their driveway.

26000 Elephants · 19-06-2019 5:03pm

you should be charging at home over night in my opinion.

Where's all this electricity coming from? Were there detailed plans of how all the extra power is being generated, what carbon impact it will have and where the investment is coming from?

Quick back of envelope calculations on the amount of diesel and petrol used in Ireland every year and the amount of KW/h power required to replace it make unclear how it will be achieved in the time frame given.

ELM327 · 19-06-2019 5:23pm

26000 Elephants wrote: »

Where's all this electricity coming from? Were there detailed plans of how all the extra power is being generated, what carbon impact it will have and where the investment is coming from?

Quick back of envelope calculations on the amount of diesel and petrol used in Ireland every year and the amount of KW/h power required to replace it make unclear how it will be achieved in the time frame given.

The renewables (wind) that are switched off at night due to low demand currently perhaps?

And it's kWh, not KW/h

unkel · 19-06-2019 5:41pm

26000 Elephants wrote: »

Where's all this electricity coming from?

A lot more wind. A lot of solar PV.

26000 Elephants · 19-06-2019 5:41pm

ELM327 wrote: »

And it's kWh, not KW/h

Derp.

26000 Elephants · 19-06-2019 5:47pm

unkel wrote: »

26000 Elephants wrote: »

Where's all this electricity coming from?

A lot more wind. A lot of solar PV.

It a value for"a lot" I'm after. Where are they going to be sited? There's been huge level of objection to these farms at even low densities, I can't imagine how people will react when they figure out just how many windmills you will need to keep the nations EVs running. And then, only when it's windy enough?

unkel · 19-06-2019 5:52pm

Off shore most likely. People wouldn't be able to even see them from land. You need storage too for when it's not windy. Storage as in pumped water, batteries, interconnects with other countries, etc.

EVs are only the start. Use of fossil fuel will be slowly phased out entirely. As in heating houses, running factories, etc.

26000 Elephants · 19-06-2019 6:26pm

unkel wrote: »

Off shore most likely. People wouldn't be able to even see them from land. You need storage too for when it's not windy. Storage as in pumped water, batteries, interconnects with other countries, etc.

EVs are only the start. Use of fossil fuel will be slowly phased out entirely. As in heating houses, running factories, etc.

There are enormous obstacles to replacing fossil fuel sourced energy with renewables. Vague solutions like 'off-shore' and 'pumped water' are really not good enough when a deadline for outlawing ICE vehicles is already on the table. I dont think many people realise the scale of the issue: hense my question:

Is there a document that (even in outline) describes how the extra energy is going to be generated within the timeframe of the ban?

kyote00 · 19-06-2019 7:37pm

http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/#roi

A lot lot more :eek:

unkel wrote: »

A lot more wind. A lot of solar PV.

Irishphotodesk · 19-06-2019 7:42pm

Why not create kinetic roads and ensure cars are adapted to benefit from the kinetic energy created, any surplus could go into the national grid.

Even if we did it for motorways a lot of EVs would be charged while travelling.

We are derailing the original thread... I'm open to a scrappage scheme in 2020 for EVs but it would need to really make the purchase affordable.

26000 Elephants · 19-06-2019 9:11pm

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

Why not create kinetic roads and ensure cars are adapted to benefit from the kinetic energy created, any surplus could go into the national grid.

Even if we did it for motorways a lot of EVs would be charged while travelling.

We are derailing the original thread... I'm open to a scrappage scheme in 2020 for EVs but it would need to really make the purchase affordable.

Are people really this dumb and unquestioning? Just throw a few quid at them and they will accept anything? There is unlikely *ever* to be a charging network of sufficient scale and capacity to serve an EV population at the level of car ownership we currently have. The only long term solution to this issue is the eventual banning of private car ownership for the masses. The discussion then, no doubt, will be the anger at how little the government gives you for scrapping your EV.

Currently 90% of our Energy is sourced from dead dinosaurs. In the last 20 years, the transition towards renewables has hardly made a dent in this. But somehow, in the next 20 that will miraculously turn around. At the moment, renewables are only capable of supplying 28% of our electricity needs - but electricity only meets 20% of our total energy needs!! ( Transport and heat are 66% of our energy needs, but renewables are barely 7% here) Our NDP for 2018- 2027 doesn't even hint at how will expand our electricity network to accommodate such a huge increase in demand - bar some vague idea of a multi-billion Euro extension cable plugged into the French grid. Anyone have any idea of how the French plan to generate our electricity?

Source

But, yeah, I take your point. How much will I get for scrapping my car?

unkel · 19-06-2019 9:19pm

26000 Elephants wrote: »

At the moment, renewables are only capable of supplying 28% of our electricity needs

Incorrect. At the moment the maximum our grid can handle from renewables is 75% (this increases every year). Already our wind production can be much higher than this.

And Ireland has almost zero solar PV. To give you an idea what you can do with solar micro generation alone: I have a modest semi-d house. My attic is converted (3 velux windows) and I have solar thermal. With my PV panels on the roof that I have left, I already generate more electricity than I consume (apart from what my EV consumes)

is_that_so · 19-06-2019 9:21pm

26000 Elephants wrote: »

There are enormous obstacles to replacing fossil fuel sourced energy with renewables. Vague solutions like 'off-shore' and 'pumped water' are really not good enough when a deadline for outlawing ICE vehicles is already on the table. I dont think many people realise the scale of the issue: hense my question:

Is there a document that (even in outline) describes how the extra energy is going to be generated within the timeframe of the ban?

The ban is really effective from 2045 via the NCT with new ICE cars banned from 2030. That is enough time for us to adjust. The average age of cars here is 8.2 years so it's not as if there will be a huge rush , even in the next five years. The energy conundrum includes a lot more renewables along with a push on domestic solar plus options to feed extra into the grid. The whole insulation/ heat pump plans, in theory, will reduce our domestic consumption but there are still many bits that need to be fleshed out. 10-11 years is probably enough for a good bit of it.

elperello · 19-06-2019 9:23pm

The last Government scrappage scheme was for 1.5k.
Given that almost all 10 year old cars are worth more than that they will have to offer a higher incentive to attract the people who have the money to buy a new electric.

is_that_so · 19-06-2019 9:25pm

elperello wrote: »

The last Government scrappage scheme was for 1.5k.
Given that almost all 10 year old cars are worth more than that they will have to offer a higher incentive to attract the people who have the money to buy a new electric.

Increased choices from manufacturers will help a lot and I imagine they'll add their own inducements.

Vote4Napoleon · 19-06-2019 9:32pm

In 2015 I think the government took â‚¬3.2bn in excise from diesel and petrol, how will that money be made up elsewhere

26000 Elephants · 19-06-2019 9:41pm

unkel wrote: »

Incorrect. At the moment the maximum our grid can handle from renewables is 75% (this increases every year). Already our wind production can be much higher than this.

And Ireland has almost zero solar PV. To give you an idea what you can do with solar micro generation alone: I have a modest semi-d house. My attic is converted (3 velux windows) and I have solar thermal. With my PV panels on the roof that I have left, I already generate more electricity than I consume (apart from what my EV consumes)

Incorrect?

From the quoted SEAI document:

Over 500 MW of wind generation was installed
during the year. This saw wind generation account
for 25.2% (normalised) of the electricity generated
making it the second largest source of electricity
generation after natural gas.

You can take up yuur spurious interpretation of figures with the SEAI. Even they recognise that saying wind can "potentially" generate 75% of our needs is puerile: You cannot have electricity one day and none the next.

But you have skillfully avoided addressing my main point; How do we go from renewables providing (28% of 20%) 6% of our current energy needs to supplying nearly all of them? In 20 years? You and I are lucky enough to have private property sufficient to generate some of our energy needs, but what about those who dont?

Do you honestly believe that private car ownership can continue?

bazz26 · 19-06-2019 9:48pm

Should be some good in unwanted diesel and petrol cars over the next few years so as the sheep panic to get rid of them.

mcbert · 19-06-2019 10:15pm

is_that_so wrote: »

The average age of cars here is 8.2 years

I've been wondering about this. Where did you get this number? I'm really wondering the median end-of-life/scrappage age of cars here? Always assumed it was around 10-11yrs but it must be some years longer if the average is 8.2...

unkel · 19-06-2019 10:16pm

26000 Elephants wrote: »

Incorrect?

That's average. There's no denying we need to increase our wind capacity in the near future. Currently the grid is also a limiting factor

See my calculation in the other thread. One wind farm with 400-500 large wind generators off the west coast would generate the same yearly electricity Ireland currently consumes.

26000 Elephants · 19-06-2019 10:33pm

unkel wrote: »

. One wind farm with 400-500 large wind generators off the west coast would generate the same yearly electricity Ireland currently consumes.

Off shore wind generation isnt exactly a new idea, so why arent we doing this now? I dont see any money allocated to off-shore wind generation (its not even mentioned) in the 2018-2027 National Strategy - considering the vast expense required ( its obvious stumbling block to date) you would have thought it was worth a mention in a document created only last year?

Maybe you are still speaking in hypotheticals? Which is fair enough because thats about as realistic as it will get. The logistic problems in managing off-shore farms on such a massive scale will ensure that they will never be a realistic solution to our energy needs.

Considering transport consumes 66% of our energy, dont you think a much more plausible solution would be to simply reduce "transport" to the bare essentials? Dont you believe that is where we are heading?

unkel · 19-06-2019 10:38pm

One farm with 4GW power. In the Atlantic, one of the windiest places (as in having constant wind) in the world. Is all Ireland needs. China added 30GW of wind power just last year. Even the USA already has 100GW in wind power. It will cost of course, billions. But not having to pay hundreds of millions every year in emissions fines alone is worth it.

2020 EV Scrappage scheme

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