Sweden v Ireland healthcare

13-12-2019 1:47am

MadYaker wrote: »

Just get health insurance and you'll be fine.

And there lies the problem. Those that can afford health insurance and those that cannot. It's a corrupt system.

4068ac1elhodqr · 13-12-2019 1:56am

Deleted User wrote: »

And there lies the problem. Those that can afford health insurance and those that cannot. It's a corrupt system.

Or pay higher 3-way taxes like those Nordics, (Corp/Emp/Personal-Income):
And there lies the problem, people want big, big tvs and shinny cars.
Not to mention world leading obesity, junk food, drinkes and a smoke.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_in_Europe#/media/File:Payroll_and_income_tax_by_country.png

TuringBot47 · 13-12-2019 2:12pm

Deleted User wrote: »

And there lies the problem. Those that can afford health insurance and those that cannot. It's a corrupt system.

It's not corrupt.
Everyone gets access to the public health system.

In fact an awful lot of people who pay for private health insurance end up getting exactly the same treatment, put in public wards when they paid for semi-private/private room cover.

Then only potential benefit is those swiftcare clinics for basic stuff like fractures, etc. Where you avoid the A&E wards, if you are fortunately to live near them.

pablo128 · 13-12-2019 3:40pm

TuringBot47 wrote: »

It's not corrupt.
Everyone gets access to the public health system.

In fact an awful lot of people who pay for private health insurance end up getting exactly the same treatment, put in public wards when they paid for semi-private/private room cover.

Then only potential benefit is those swiftcare clinics for basic stuff like fractures, etc. Where you avoid the A&E wards, if you are fortunately to live near them.

If you're private you get seen to straight away. If you're not, you can be waiting years to be seen to. BY THE SAME SURGEON IN THE SAME HOSPITAL!

How is that not corrupt?

ILoveYourVibes · 13-12-2019 3:41pm

Greentopia wrote: »

So been weighing my options lately as to whether I should stay on our little isle or move back to Sweden. The main (and really only) issue that's making me think about leaving is the healthcare system here... quite frankly it scares the bejezus out of me, especially as I'm middle aged now. Far better in Sweden, no question. I love this country and am happy here, but worried about what the future might bring if I or my partner were to need medical care...which will happen sooner rather than later I'm sure as we're both middle aged now.

What say ye...would you consider a move there if you had the chance? I'm not going to base my decision on the responses I get in AH , have to have a serious discussion over Christmas with the other half over about it, just wanted to see what ye think.

Would you leave Ireland for Sweden or any other affluent country just because our healthcare system is substandard? how important is it really to you?

No way. Its a long hard winter during which a lot of things just stop. Factories shut down etc.

ILoveYourVibes · 13-12-2019 3:41pm

Spain or south of france.

Maybe Italy.

2lazytogetup · 13-12-2019 3:42pm

no brainer, Ireland's a kip. anywhere is better.

corner of hells · 13-12-2019 3:54pm

2lazytogetup wrote: »

no brainer, Ireland's a kip. anywhere is better.

Syria, you should be fone there or maybe South Sudan.

TuringBot47 · 13-12-2019 4:23pm

pablo128 wrote: »

If you're private you get seen to straight away. If you're not, you can be waiting years to be seen to. BY THE SAME SURGEON IN THE SAME HOSPITAL!

How is that not corrupt?

A good GP will write and chase up referrals to specialists especially when it's something life threatening.

So you'll have to give a good example of someone "waiting for years" and what condition they had. I imagine you're thinking of things like hip replacements or back operations.

Corrupt is certainly not the right term.
Although on some level, I'm okay with private patients getting priority.
It makes sense for people who earn more money and contribute significantly more income to society to be given preferential treatment. Get them better and they'll continue to pay for the health service that everyone benefits from.

2lazytogetup · 13-12-2019 4:25pm

corner of hells wrote: »

Syria, you should be fone there or maybe South Sudan.

weather is better, and im sure when you get on a bus you dont get some scumbag hassling you for a smoke or playing their scanger dance music.

pablo128 · 13-12-2019 4:36pm

pablo128 wrote: »

I had a hernia operation 2 weeks ago. 3 and a half years waiting on it. Having said that, once I was actually in Tallaght hospital getting done, the staff there were fantastic.

TuringBot47 wrote: »

A good GP will write and chase up referrals to specialists especially when it's something life threatening.

So you'll have to give a good example of someone "waiting for years" and what condition they had. I imagine you're thinking of things like hip replacements or back operations.

Corrupt is certainly not the right term.
Although on some level, I'm okay with private patients getting priority.
It makes sense for people who earn more money and contribute significantly more income to society to be given preferential treatment. Get them better and they'll continue to pay for the health service that everyone benefits from.

There's your example above. I have worked all my life so I do 'pay for the health service that everyone benefits from'.

topper75 · 13-12-2019 4:45pm

I'm really surprise how huge a priority the health system thing is for people on this thread.

I mean, if that is your pole star in evaluating life in a country - why don't we say sorry for that whole 1916 misunderstanding and subsequent unpleasantness and get the old NHS in here?

Yeah don't get me wrong - I see how it would go into the equation as a decision factor right enough, but it wouldn't outweigh the price of biting elongated winters, mass introversion, or an authoritarian left political system. Definitely a no for me if it is just a simple IRE v SWE dichotomy.

Greentopia · 13-12-2019 8:04pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

No way. Its a long hard winter during which a lot of things just stop. Factories shut down etc.

Because of the cold weather?? you must be joking. Sweden couldn't be better prepared for their cold Winters. Factories don't close down in Winter. Where did you hear that?? I've seen paper mills in Piteå and Kiruna in the very far North in deepest Winter operating and in fact they use secondary heat from the mills for district heating for local residents.

Maybe you're thinking of the Summer?? things definitely slow down in Summer with earlier closing hours and some businesses shutting down for the Summer completely in July and August because everyone gets 25 days paid holiday leave and they like to take it as a block and leave for their Summer houses in the countryside. Well plus another 16 days paid national holidays but they're spread throughout the year as here.

My ex worked for a few years in a factory-a local brewery in Gothenburg and I can promise you they never closed down in Winter

Greentopia · 13-12-2019 8:23pm

Omari Enough Photocopier wrote: »

Suggest title be changed to 'Swedish Healthcare' or maybe 'Swe vs Ire (Healthcare only)' rather than anything else vague (as it is currently).
As to ignore all other contextual matters, or claim they not even a factor in such a move, is akin to painting some sort of false state of u-topia (by Green-topia).

Yeah I posted the title in a rush, I can change that for better clarification NP.

I don't say they're not a factor for other people perhaps, but I was asking for opinions based solely on healthcare because I already know how Sweden works and what it's like to live there. If anyone seriously wants to know more about the country with an honest and open mind they can ask Swedes themselves, read books on the country or check out English language sources of Swedish media, or travel there and see it for themselves.

Of course every country has positives and negatives, but it just gets boring and repetitive to hear the same negative talking points being made about the country by people many of whom have never set foot in the country, and also are eager and willing to lap up and propagate fake news and half truths about criminal immigrunts, how feminists are taking over the country, gender quotas, no-go areas everywhere, and whatever the latest far right bloggers story is about how bonkers Librul those crazy Swedes are.

Greentopia · 13-12-2019 8:27pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Spain or south of france.

Maybe Italy.

Spain too hot in Summer, likewise France now. Especially the South. And Ze Lad wouldn't move to the land of the frogs.

Italy is beautiful with amazing food, but only for an off season holiday, too corrupt to live there and I prefer cooler countries. I fry within 10 minutes in Mediterranean sun.

Greentopia · 13-12-2019 8:42pm

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Although on some level, I'm okay with private patients getting priority.
It makes sense for people who earn more money and contribute significantly more income to society to be given preferential treatment. Get them better and they'll continue to pay for the health service that everyone benefits from.

And what about people who through no fault of their own can't afford private insurance? those on disability, OAP's -housewives perhaps on state pensions who've worked all their lives? why should money dictate level of care and access? that sounds like the kind of argument the Republicans in the US make for their system and look at how that has shut out millions of their citizens and caused misery and death. Many die there without proper affordable healthcare, go bankrupt or have to set up gofundme pages for life saving treatment. Is that what we want here? That's barbaric.

In civilised countries in Europe everyone pays into the healthcare system through direct taxes or social contributions and everyone benefits equally so you have the most health benefits for the whole of society.

Apart from the moral aspect do you think there are no knock effects to the economy in lost productivity, more demands on health services like mental health, GP services, emergency A&E visits and so on as well as social welfare claims-disability, unemployment...if someone can't be seen when they need medical care and they're put down a list where others are given priority simply because they can pay for their treatment privately?

MadYaker · 13-12-2019 9:11pm

pablo128 wrote: »

If you're private you get seen to straight away. If you're not, you can be waiting years to be seen to. BY THE SAME SURGEON IN THE SAME HOSPITAL!

How is that not corrupt?

I have private health insurance and I never get seen right away. You still have to wait, just not as long. I've been in hospital once but I was treated in the public system the same as everyone who have no insurance and the care I recieved was excellent. Its only 100 euro a month or something.

Greentopia · 13-12-2019 9:19pm

topper75 wrote: »

I'm really surprise how huge a priority the health system thing is for people on this thread.

How old are you? if you're middle aged like me you might understand better, facing into the prospect of getting old in this country and perhaps ending up as just another one of many news stories of being an elderly patient waiting 22 hours on a hospital trolley in A&E. That's not the care I want in years to come and it's certainly not what I want for my partner.

Decent public healthcare is one of the most important things to have in any country and a basic human right...else why are we paying taxes and PRSI?? Why wouldn't it be so important for most people?

topper75 wrote: »

I mean, if that is your pole star in evaluating life in a country - why don't we say sorry for that whole 1916 misunderstanding and subsequent unpleasantness and get the old NHS in here?

If there is a united Ireland I'd gladly say yes to reforming the HSE to be more like the universal system that is the NHS where you don't need to pay through the nose for private care.

topper75 wrote: »

Yeah don't get me wrong - I see how it would go into the equation as a decision factor right enough, but it wouldn't outweigh the price of biting elongated winters, mass introversion, or an authoritarian left political system. Definitely a no for me if it is just a simple IRE v SWE dichotomy.

I found Swedish Winters easier to deal with than Irish. All you have to do there is put extra layers on and you're ok as there's no driving rain and winds like here that freeze your bones. It's just cold still weather and snow, low humidity. They have a saying: "there's no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing".

The long dark evenings can take getting used to, that's true, but I grew to like it and the Swedes know how to make the best of it.

"Mass introversion" :pac: okay well considering both myself and my partner are also introverts I don't see that as being a problem. And they're not all introverts of course. But what's the matter with being introverted? many of the greatest scientific minds in history have been introverts -Einstein, Isaac Newton, Darwin.

I hate loud, excitable, attention seeking people and love the calm and quiet of countries like the Nordic countries and Germany-also a nation of introverts btw.

Sweden is a moderate liberal social democracy, not authoritarian left :rolleyes:
Tell my German fiancee who grew up in an actual authoritarian left country -the Marxist-Leninist GDR, that Sweden is anything like that and he'd laugh in your face. Yes he's been to Sweden many times. We met there.

I haven't gotten any answer from others on this thread who write nonsense about the country so I don't expect it from you either but I'll ask anyway...have you been there to see it for yourself? where have you gotten these ideas about the country from?

fits · 13-12-2019 10:22pm

I only visited Sweden but I lived in Finland for four years. I loved it and We seriously considered moving there but husband would have found it difficult to get a job without the language. So we decided to settle in Ireland. Our families and support networks are here and that’s hugely important.

Have since had children and one has a rare disease. Some aspects of his care are excellent and others severely lacking. The health system here does give me anxiety for the future but in the end I’d still prefer to be at home with our support network than in Finland with none.

pinkyeye · 13-12-2019 10:31pm

Didn't want to quote your whole post OP cause it was so large but I get what you're saying about the language but honestly some people have real difficulty with other languages, me included.

I've actually taught English for years in Spain and I've done beginners Spanish FOUR times here in Ireland and I can speak the basics but if a Spanish person speaks to me quickly that's it, I'm lost, it's different parts of the brain. Some people understand other languages easily, some don't.

Greentopia · 14-12-2019 5:23pm

pinkyeye wrote: »

Didn't want to quote your whole post OP cause it was so large but I get what you're saying about the language but honestly some people have real difficulty with other languages, me included.

I've actually taught English for years in Spain and I've done beginners Spanish FOUR times here in Ireland and I can speak the basics but if a Spanish person speaks to me quickly that's it, I'm lost, it's different parts of the brain. Some people understand other languages easily, some don't.

That's fair enough, sorry if the point I made came across too strongly.

I do know it can be difficult to learn a new language. I've been learning German for the past few years and I'm still no-where near proficient despite having lived there.

I just meant I think Swedish is one of the easier languages to learn of any. It's like German lite

I wouldn't say Spanish is that easy though. My partner is good at learning languages and apart from his mother tongue of German speaks English pretty well and has some Russian too from having to learn it in high school in East Germany; but he tried some Spanish classes a few years ago and said he gave it up as he couldn't learn it.

riclad · 14-12-2019 5:45pm

It depends on your income and savings.
if you are on 30k per year it would be better to just pay for private health insurance .
Sweden has a great healthcare system and welfare system ,but tax,s there
are higher than ireland.
go for a health check up every year .
i presume if you have private health care you won,t be waiting 20 hours on a trolley,
there are private emergency clinics .
My experience is once you get a hospital bed the health care in ireland is pretty good.
every year there,s articles about people waiting on trolleys in hospital,
even if you have private health insurance ,your tax,s still pay for
public hospitals .
I think sweden is leagues ahead of india in terms of the healthcare and education
it provides its citizens.
india has lots of minoritys of different religions , with a caste system
i find it very hard to think of things that india has in common with sweden.
Uptil 10 years ago sweden was mostly populated by white christian
people ,now there are more non nationals of different race,s living there
.

Rodin · 14-12-2019 5:53pm

bunderoon wrote: »

I'm 3 years waiting for an MRI appointment. Any day now. Any day...

Can't be that important if you've waited 3 years.
Most MRIs cost less than a grand.
Even Jobseekers provides 40k over 3 years

People crying about waiting 4 years for an appt.
A private appt is less than 200 and available quickly.

People always want something for free.

Greentopia · 15-12-2019 2:07am

riclad wrote: »

It depends on your income and savings.
if you are on 30k per year it would be better to just pay for private health insurance . Sweden has a great healthcare system and welfare system ,but tax,s there
are higher than ireland.

I shall see next year what we come up with. If I stay here I'd definitely want back in the private system, as much as I'm ideologically opposed to private healthcare.

Taxes are higher there but you get way more for them than here. Clean, well cared for streets and parks, good public transport, good public healthcare, low cost or free municipal childcare, best cradle to grave social welfare system in the world, affordable third level and continuing education, municipal waste disposal services... I'd be paying at least 50% tax rate if I continued my self employment there, but it's honestly worth it.

riclad wrote: »

go for a health check up every year .

I do that already on the public system.

Greentopia · 15-12-2019 2:11am

Rodin wrote: »

Can't be that important if you've waited 3 years.
Most MRIs cost less than a grand.
Even Jobseekers provides 40k over 3 years

People crying about waiting 4 years for an appt.
A private appt is less than 200 and available quickly.

People always want something for free.

I'd definitely pay the €200 or whatever the MRI costs privately, but it doesn't usually stop there. Follow on appointments and treatment cost a lot if you continue paying out of pocket.

Would still cut months or even years off the waiting time to pay for that initial consultation though, that's true.

MadYaker · 15-12-2019 9:53am

Health insurance is essential in Ireland imo. I would like to see the two tier system abolished and an NHS style service brought in though.

Rodin · 15-12-2019 12:31pm

MadYaker wrote: »

Health insurance is essential in Ireland imo. I would like to see the two tier system abolished and an NHS style service brought in though.

Private health contributions prop up the public system here. It's the great ugly truth about the health system.

Ireland can't afford an NHS system.
The UK can't really either

riclad · 15-12-2019 3:07pm

Do they not have private hospitals in the uk,
i don,t think millionaires have to wait 3 years to see a consultant.
if you are single,over 30, education and childcare don,t effect you ,
sweden has long cold winters .
i,m sure the swedes are nice if you speak the language.
most of the time the weather is mild here,
we don,t get extremely cold winters with heavy snow and ice .The nhs works for most people,
its, not perfect.

Greentopia · 15-12-2019 11:04pm

Rodin wrote: »

Private health contributions prop up the public system here. It's the great ugly truth about the health system.

Ireland can't afford an NHS system.
The UK can't really either

We can't afford not to with lost productivity, more taxes having to be paid out on sickness and disability benefits, deterioration in health for a lot of people from not getting prompt and adequate treatment and languishing on waiting lists and working poor being unable to afford to go to their dentist and GPs as often as they should; and 300 deaths annually caused by deficiencies in the public system as it currently operates.

You have to take all those extra costs into account when calculating a true cost benefit analysis. And the Government with cross party support have committed to it over the next 10 years anyway with Slaintecare. €200 million extra is being spent this year already.

pinkyeye · 15-12-2019 11:48pm

riclad wrote: »

Do they not have private hospitals in the uk,
i don,t think millionaires have to wait 3 years to see a consultant.
if you are single,over 30, education and childcare don,t effect you ,
sweden has long cold winters .
i,m sure the swedes are nice if you speak the language.
most of the time the weather is mild here,
we don,t get extremely cold winters with heavy snow and ice .The nhs works for most people,
its, not perfect.

Are you actually from Ireland?

NHS is not in Ireland?

topper75 · 16-12-2019 6:12pm

Greentopia wrote: »

How old are you? if you're middle aged like me you might understand better, facing into the prospect of getting old in this country and perhaps ending up as just another one of many news stories of being an elderly patient waiting 22 hours on a hospital trolley in A&E. That's not the care I want in years to come and it's certainly not what I want for my partner.

I haven't gotten any answer from others on this thread who write nonsense about the country so I don't expect it from you either but I'll ask anyway...have you been there to see it for yourself? where have you gotten these ideas about the country from?

I'm in my 40s. My parents are getting on. They use the Irish system extensively and it has been mixed but mainly OK. None of us go around evaluating Ireland in its entirety purely on the basis of the health system.

I visited Sweden 3 times (work in Lund and Gothenburg, leisure in Stockholm) I have been close friends with a Swedish girl (Karlstad) and a Swedish lad (Stockholm) here in Ireland. I have experienced driving rain in December in Stockholm. I had miserable day in Gothenburg too but that was summer. It is a lot worse than Ireland and a lot colder. I enjoyed my trip but there is an undeniable grimness that has to be endured. And that is saying something as an Irish person :pac: They do have better summers, short as they are.

The introversion is excruciating. I am not demanding that people scream and shout in the streets with constant parties and limbo dancing - but still - you get on a bus and sit down and the next person on sits at the furthest point from you as though you had a disease. Just weird. Yes I appreciate the whole 'when you get to know them' take. But life is short. They could loosen up and meet the outside world half way.

Check out this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifascistisk_Aktion
Attacking an immigration judge! No equivalent in the Irish nutcase brigade, yet. Pretty extreme left to me - but this is subjective. On the plus side the Swedes are starting to turn against that mindset electorally.

4068ac1elhodqr · 16-12-2019 7:17pm

When comparing the two healthcare systems, do also compare taxes (Personal, Corporate, VAT etc).
AFAIK the Swedes pay very, very high taxes for any public service privlidges such as an actual functional healthcare system.

riclad · 16-12-2019 9:39pm

i ,d prefer to pay high tax,s in ireland, and pay for private health insurance .
Than go to a very cold country and pay 50 per cent tax ,The swede,s are nice people, but they don,t sound very friendly .
its easy to make friends in ireland.
The weather is moderate most of the time .
In some countrys it takes a long time to meet people or make friends
especially if you are no fluent in the language

pablo128 · 16-12-2019 9:44pm

It's a different type of cold over there. A dry cold, and they're prepared for it. My brother in law has lived there for 25 years but comes back every Christmas. Every year without fail he has a cold or flu or something else within days of landing here.

kowloon · 16-12-2019 9:53pm

Deleted User wrote: »

In before the Infowars experts who've never set foot on Swedish soil.

'Reliable sources have told me Sweden is a no go area. They'll harvest your organs and give them to the Muslim immigrants'

Greentopia · 18-12-2019 7:40pm

topper75 wrote: »

I enjoyed my trip but there is an undeniable grimness that has to be endured. And that is saying something as an Irish person :pac: They do have better summers, short as they are.

The introversion is excruciating. I am not demanding that people scream and shout in the streets with constant parties and limbo dancing - but still - you get on a bus and sit down and the next person on sits at the furthest point from you as though you had a disease. Just weird. Yes I appreciate the whole 'when you get to know them' take. But life is short. They could loosen up and meet the outside world half way.

Check out this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifascistisk_Aktion
Attacking an immigration judge! No equivalent in the Irish nutcase brigade, yet. Pretty extreme left to me - but this is subjective. On the plus side the Swedes are starting to turn against that mindset electorally.

"Ok" is very far from good enough IMO. Why settle for just ok when we could and should be in the top 5 countries in the world for healthcare if we restructured and financed it properly?

I'm not evaluating Ireland based solely on it's healthcare system, but it's a huge issue and consideration for me on if I shall stay here.
Like I said previously-I don't want my partner or I to become just another statistic of a dysfunctional system which can have life threatening consequences. Three hundred people die prematurely in this country every year because they're left languishing on waiting lists and can't have the care needed when they need it. I have no intention of us becoming a figure in that awful statistic if I can in any way help it.

Of course you'll find rainy days there too, same as all over Europe Western and Northern. I'm talking about mean averages which are higher than here and you don't get the kind of storms we see today with accompanying heavy winds, gales and storms. In Winter rain turns more to sleet and snow when it gets very cold there and is a dry cold. Different continental climate.
I didn't find it a "lot worse" because all I had to do was put on more clothing to deal with the cold there and I loved the snow in winter...but that's me. Swedes say "there's no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing". I concur.

Grimness? lol. If you're talking about weather conditions go anywhere this time of year in North/West Europe and you'll see grey heavy skies and bad weather. Why should Sweden be any different?

If you mean the country itself then I don't know where you've seen but the city and towns there are far from grim I can assure you. Stockholm is called the Venice of the North for a reason and is beautiful with it's archipelago of islands and beautifully preserved old town any time of year but really shines in Summer. Gothenburg is lovely too. Calm, well organised and efficient.

And the Summer in Gothenburg lasts nearly 4 months where there is a far better chance of good weather than here. I don't mind Irish summers but they're not nearly as reliable for having good weather as in the Nordic countries.

As for the "excruciating" introversion... yes people will always sit on their own there because they need greater personal space than anywhere else in the world...studies have been done on this. Their personal bubble is bigger.

They also see it as a privacy matter. They consider it polite to leave people alone and not intrude on their personal space. This means being considerate of others and not making unnecessary noise or calling attention to oneself. I love it. No screaming kids, no shouting and shrieking teenagers causing problems for others, far less anti-social behaviour tolerated. The only ones who are louder there are non-nationals who stick out a mile from the quiet reserved Swedes.

I don't see anything excruciating about their behaviour. I like to be left alone when I'm on public transport here to read or listen to a podcast or just sit and relax in peace and quiet. I don't want noise and disruption. If older people like to sit and chat beside me that's no problem as they can be lonely, and I will gladly have a nice chat with them, but otherwise no thanks.

Too many idiots out there who think I need to hear their BS. Men in particular seem to think I'm just dying to listen to them and sit down beside me and start yakking even though it's usually clear I don't want to be disturbed. :rolleyes:

ANTIFA is in a lot of countries throughout Europe and is not representative of mainstream politics there which is centre-left social democratic and centre-right parties. It's also not an example of authoritarianism as your previous post was referring to. Did you not read that Wiki link you posted? they're libertarian socialists-the very furthest away on the political spectrum to authoritarianism. :pac: see that red and black flag? that means anarchism.. a libertarian political philosophy.

What is an example of authoritarianism is the fascist Sweden Democrats. A party that poses a far greater danger to Swedish democracy than a handful of ANTIFA activists.

Sweden v Ireland healthcare

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