Farm science.

pedigree 6 · 06-09-2016 4:56pm #1

Right i'll start off this thread.
So if anyone knows any snippets of information or reads any useful info, put a link to it in here.

Right this is what I know/read about urea and spreading.

You should spread urea ideally max 2 days before rain. 10 -15 mm of rain is ideal for this. Care should also be taken on waterlogged soils to avoid losses.

The process is urea when spread combines with moisture and the soil and turns to ammonia (gas). Ammonia will likely escape to the atmosphere unless it reacts with water to form ammonium. Ammonium is the plant available source of nitrogen while ammonia is not. Rain will turn ammonia into ammonium and wash it into the soil.
High ph soils will change urea quicker into ammonia (gas) so more need to be washed in faster.

Organic matter requires ammonia to rot/break down. So when applying dung or slurry, apply those first and then apply urea.
The two are perfect partners. The dung traps the ammonia and all/most of the nitrogen is saved from the urea.

Anyway that's the way I understand it. But this is a public resource so am open to correction and I hope the mods don't mind as I open this thread.:pac:

merryberry · 06-09-2016 6:06pm

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Right i'll start off this thread.
So if anyone knows any snippets of information or reads any useful info, put a link to it in here.

Right this is what I know/read about urea and spreading.

You should spread urea ideally max 2 days before rain. 10 -15 mm of rain is ideal for this. Care should also be taken on waterlogged soils to avoid losses.

The process is urea when spread combines with moisture and the soil and turns to ammonia (gas). Ammonia will likely escape to the atmosphere unless it reacts with water to form ammonium. Ammonium is the plant available source of nitrogen while ammonia is not. Rain will turn ammonia into ammonium and wash it into the soil.
High ph soils will change urea quicker into ammonia (gas) so more need to be washed in faster.

Organic matter requires ammonia to rot/break down. So when applying dung or slurry, apply those first and then apply urea.
The two are perfect partners. The dung traps the ammonia and all/most of the nitrogen is saved from the urea.

Anyway that's the way I understand it. But this is a public resource so am open to correction and I hope the mods don't mind as I open this thread.:pac:

Or you could use urease inhibitor treated urea. More expensive by volume but comparable to CAN on a price per kg of N

freedominacup · 06-09-2016 7:20pm

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Right i'll start off this thread.
So if anyone knows any snippets of information or reads any useful info, put a link to it in here.

Right this is what I know/read about urea and spreading.

You should spread urea ideally max 2 days before rain. 10 -15 mm of rain is ideal for this. Care should also be taken on waterlogged soils to avoid losses.

The process is urea when spread combines with moisture and the soil and turns to ammonia (gas). Ammonia will likely escape to the atmosphere unless it reacts with water to form ammonium. Ammonium is the plant available source of nitrogen while ammonia is not. Rain will turn ammonia into ammonium and wash it into the soil.
High ph soils will change urea quicker into ammonia (gas) so more need to be washed in faster.

Organic matter requires ammonia to rot/break down. So when applying dung or slurry, apply those first and then apply urea.
The two are perfect partners. The dung traps the ammonia and all/most of the nitrogen is saved from the urea.

Anyway that's the way I understand it. But this is a public resource so am open to correction and I hope the mods don't mind as I open this thread.:pac:

Virtually all of the N we spread here is urea and I wouldn't spread unless it was about to or just after raining. You don't need anything like 10-15mm of rain to get a full response as long as you aren't in a moisture defecit before spreading. A drizzly evening will do more than enough.

For the rest I wouldn't question you at all. I'm starting to price up the cost of building enough storage to cover our entire housing period as I think it could be very cost effective with the better response to slurry applied in warm weather on dry soils.

Sam Kade · 06-09-2016 7:24pm

I spread urea for a man one time in June 20 degrees in dry weather on a reasonable cover of grass. 2 weeks later and no rain the grass was after jumping out of the ground. I'd say with the cover of grass and a reasonable dew it will work.

freedominacup · 06-09-2016 7:27pm

Sam Kade wrote: »

I spread urea for a man one time in June 20 degrees in dry weather on a reasonable cover of grass. 2 weeks later and no rain the grass was after jumping out of the ground. I'd say with the cover of grass and a reasonable dew it will work.

You don't really want to be there though. All fert is too pricey to be chancing it. If there's plenty of moisture in the soil the dew will get it washed in on a reasonable cover and the soil moisture will get it activated.

Sam Kade · 06-09-2016 7:32pm

freedominacup wrote: »

You don't really want to be there though. All fert is too pricey to be chancing it. If there's plenty of moisture in the soil the dew will get it washed in on a reasonable cover and the soil moisture will get it activated.

At the time I thought he was mad as they say you have losses with urea when tempt goes over 20.

pedigree 6 · 06-09-2016 8:16pm

merryberry wrote: »

Or you could use urease inhibitor treated urea. More expensive by volume but comparable to CAN on a price per kg of N

I hear good reports about this.
Mind you it was the salesman.
It is urea and the same processes apply however it gives off ammonia at a slower rate and a longer time period. So losses will/should be lower and be some favourable conditions at times to take it in. Although the opposite will happen too, there will be sunny windy days as well when the gas that it produces that day when the grass is short will go to waste.

However it would be good for corn crops and I think it would be perfect for the 14th of Sept.:)

kevthegaff · 06-09-2016 9:05pm

Should there always be a cover with urea?

pedigree 6 · 06-09-2016 9:12pm

kevthegaff wrote: »

Should there always be a cover with urea?

A cover of grass?
Yes it will help reduce losses.
But I have seen in the spring when spreading on skint ground and then a downpour of rain came and I thought it was all wasted and I got a great response.
But it is perfect with dung/slurry.

Mooooo · 06-09-2016 9:24pm

Can is as cheap now than the treated urea. Spread urea all summer till August and only stopped as can in the yard already to be used.
They say the process of the n in urea becoming available to the plant takes 5 days, is it any faster in warmer conditions I wonder. And does the treated urea slow this down further?

Brown Podzol · 06-09-2016 9:24pm

freedominacup wrote: »

Virtually all of the N we spread here is urea and I wouldn't spread unless it was about to or just after raining. You don't need anything like 10-15mm of rain to get a full response as long as you aren't in a moisture defecit before spreading. A drizzly evening will do more than enough.

For the rest I wouldn't question you at all. I'm starting to price up the cost of building enough storage to cover our entire housing period as I think it could be very cost effective with the better response to slurry applied in warm weather on dry soils.

I wonder is the response to dirty water/dilute slurry in warm weather the fact that a portion of the nutrients are foliar absorbed instead of through the soil and roots. Tillage lads might know more about this method of applying fert.

pedigree 6 · 06-09-2016 9:35pm

Mooooo wrote: »

Can is as cheap now than the treated urea. Spread urea all summer till August and only stopped as can in the yard already to be used.
They say the process of the n in urea becoming available to the plant takes 5 days, is it any faster in warmer conditions I wonder. And does the treated urea slow this down further?

Urease is naturally occurring in the soil and it's the first step with urea coming into contact with it and turning into ammonia (gas).
A bit of info here about the urease inhibiter used now and the slowing down of the process.

https://www.ipni.net/publication/nss.nsf/0/EA265C5FE184D4F285257C8300753585/$FILE/NSS-25%20Urease%20Inhibitors.pdf

Waffletraktor · 06-09-2016 9:46pm

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Urease is naturally occurring in the soil and it's the first step with urea coming into contact with it and turning into ammonia (gas).
A bit of info here about the urease inhibiter used now and the slowing down of the process.

https://www.ipni.net/publication/nss.nsf/0/EA265C5FE184D4F285257C8300753585/$FILE/NSS-25%20Urease%20Inhibitors.pdf

Must admit, would be of the opinion most of these products are a marketing success over actual real world realities.
Little and often will get your N efficiency into the mid 50%s for us mere mortals and the lucky/ocd types who pick exact weather to go might touch 60%.

pedigree 6 · 06-09-2016 10:02pm

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Must admit, would be of the opinion most of these products are a marketing success over actual real world realities.
Little and often will get your N efficiency into the mid 50%s for us mere mortals and the lucky/ocd types who pick exact weather to go might touch 60%.

They are going to gain ground though. Although according to that article it will work over 7-10 days where as if conditions were right or wrong for use, ordinary urea would be converted (I think) in a few hours.

Agree though not going to dump your N requirement for your crop all in the one application.

Waffletraktor · 06-09-2016 10:24pm

pedigree 6 wrote: »

They are going to gain ground though. Although according to that article it will work over 7-10 days where as if conditions were right or wrong for use, ordinary urea would be converted (I think) in a few hours.

Agree though not going to dump your N requirement for your crop all in the one application.

Sure its not Ammonium Nitrate being refered to? (illegal over there, dicks like to use AMFO bombs) That is fairly instant vs urea needing a week to do anything normally. Common practice would be go with An first then urea once everything starts growing but being careful of extended dry spells. Urea is cheapest kg/n, just yet to see any real convincing reason for fancy coatings on it yet. On wide tramlines so would never even try spread it in solid form as like trying to apply polystyrine beads.
4/5 splits on milling wheat if a head spray is needed.

Mooooo · 06-09-2016 10:38pm

Uncle spread the version called GEN, said it didn't travel as far as even standard urea. Dunno what conditions he was spreading it in but ended up with a few strips up and down the field

Waffletraktor · 06-09-2016 10:57pm

Mooooo wrote: »

Uncle spread the version called GEN, said it didn't travel as far as even standard urea. Dunno what conditions he was spreading it in but ended up with a few strips up and down the field

Know someone with issues spreading the ?Koch? protected urea i think its called, had a green paste which gummed up the vanes/agitator area effecting flow and spread pattern.
Would ye have to get spreaders tested for BBia/Assurance schemes yet?

pedigree 6 · 06-09-2016 10:58pm

This is all I can get on it in Ireland.

https://www.teagasc.ie/news--events/news/2016/balancing-greenhouse-gas.php

http://www.advancedfertilizers.ie/koch-advanced-nitrogen-fertiliser-creates-a-triple-win-for-irish-agriculture/

And a fertilizer presentation up in NI.
http://www.fertilizer-assoc.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Fertiliser-Association-of-Ireland-Watson.pdf

freedominacup · 06-09-2016 11:10pm

kevthegaff wrote: »

Should there always be a cover with urea?

Makes no odds at all. We blanket spread once a month roughly. Once conditions are right overhead from mid Apr on there's no issue.

Dawggone · 07-09-2016 6:09am

Science...

Fall onto your knees in the parcel destined for urea....after a minute if your knees are damp/wet...spread away.

Likewise a highly scientific way to know if soil temps are good enough to plant beet or maize...drop the pants and sit bare ass on the ground for a minute...

Works.

merryberry · 07-09-2016 9:39am

pedigree 6 wrote: »

This is all I can get on it in Ireland.

https://www.teagasc.ie/news--events/news/2016/balancing-greenhouse-gas.php

http://www.advancedfertilizers.ie/koch-advanced-nitrogen-fertiliser-creates-a-triple-win-for-irish-agriculture/

And a fertilizer presentation up in NI.
http://www.fertilizer-assoc.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Fertiliser-Association-of-Ireland-Watson.pdf

Pedigree this may be if interest

www.yara.com/doc/33521_Nitrate_-_Pure_Nutrient.pdf

Don't work for yara. Diagram on nitrogen transformations is interesting

davidk1394 · 07-09-2016 9:58am

I've learned more here in 10 mins for free than 3 years of college. I think the colleges do need to have a good chat with themselves

pedigree 6 · 07-09-2016 10:57am

merryberry wrote: »

Pedigree this may be if interest

www.yara.com/doc/33521_Nitrate_-_Pure_Nutrient.pdf

Don't work for yara. Diagram on nitrogen transformations is interesting

Good find.
Yara share a lot on their website. They even have an energy and protein competition for grass for british and irish farmers if anyone is interested.

riffmongous · 07-09-2016 2:16pm

Dawggone wrote: »

Science...

Fall onto your knees in the parcel destined for urea....after a minute if your knees are damp/wet...spread away.

Likewise a highly scientific way to know if soil temps are good enough to plant beet or maize...drop the pants and sit bare ass on the ground for a minute...

Works.

You should really do it in a few places though to get an average, by the end of it you'll have to get the power hose out

pedigree 6 · 07-09-2016 3:31pm

Just for laughs. Coming to a pub near you soon.:P

http://phys.org/news/2016-08-partner-brewery-urine-fertilizer.html

pedigree 6 · 07-09-2016 3:43pm

Finding out how legumes are able to extract their own nitrogen from the air.

http://phys.org/news/2016-01-interact-beneficial-microbes-soil.html

Mooooo · 07-09-2016 3:53pm

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Mooooo wrote: »

Uncle spread the version called GEN, said it didn't travel as far as even standard urea. Dunno what conditions he was spreading it in but ended up with a few strips up and down the field

Know someone with issues spreading the ?Koch? protected urea i think its called, had a green paste which gummed up the vanes/agitator area effecting flow and spread pattern.
Would ye have to get spreaders tested for BBia/Assurance schemes yet?

Not yet, no doubt it'll come down the line. At some stage ill get gps and set the spinner to spread wider, so would be no harm to test every season anyway esp as the days of throwing in a few small bags and see how she goes are gone from here anyway. Seeing the contractor go up and down the silage field in 6 runs when it would take me at least 12 showed the savings in time and diesel alone would cover the gps

pedigree 6 · 07-09-2016 8:43pm

The science of composting and the roles of
Psychrophilic bacteria
Mesophilic bacteria
Thermophilic bacteria

and their need for aerobic conditions and nitrogen.
Explains why when posters here were wondering how to speed up rotting up of a dungheap and the answer was to add urea/nitrogen.
As naturally it is taken from the air as ammonia or whatever is used for the compost.

https://web.extension.illinois.edu/homecompost/science.cfm

And then other macro organisms like insects, worms, flies, etc.

yosemitesam1 · 08-09-2016 9:58am

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1465-7287.1992.tb00235.x/full

Should probably be in the cows saving the planet thread but the gist of it is ruminant methane emissions contribution to climate change are overestimated by as much as 800%

pedigree 6 · 12-09-2016 8:01pm

Right so is anyone going to this?:P

http://fsr.osu.edu/

Click on exhibitors and go to events and schedule.
Maybe the ploughing could learn a thing or twenty from this show.

Mooooo · 14-09-2016 12:30pm

http://www.ted.com/talks/mohamed_hijri_a_simple_solution_to_the_coming_phosphorus_crisis#t-238493

pedigree 6 · 28-09-2016 11:43am

I'll leave this here.
Very well balanced article on microbe and soil and crop interaction and then the failure of researchers to get this information to farmers and then about the problems of mass producing products and whether it does what it says on the tin.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/microbes-help-grow-better-crops/

yosemitesam1 · 10-10-2016 6:25pm

Bit on soil as more than a place to just dump carbon

davidk1394 · 10-10-2016 7:11pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Bit on soil as more than a place to just dump carbon

Handy bit of info for one of my modules. Thanks

Buford T. Justice XIX · 14-10-2016 9:42pm

An unusual bit on growing crops by worms.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2109058-worms-seen-farming-plants-to-be-eaten-later-for-the-first-time/

pedigree 6 · 14-10-2016 9:55pm

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

An unusual bit on growing crops by worms.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2109058-worms-seen-farming-plants-to-be-eaten-later-for-the-first-time/

Fekken worms taking our jobs.;)

pedigree 6 · 22-10-2016 10:58pm

Right this looks an interesting concept.
It's a free online site (question and answer moderated) by penn state university about all agricultural and food crops.
Open to everyone around the world.

https://www.plantvillage.org/en/crops

Buford T. Justice XIX · 23-10-2016 2:19pm

The Effects of Residue Return on Soil Microbial Biomass – A 30 Year Study

https://legumelaboratory.wordpress.com/2016/07/21/the-effects-of-residue-return-on-soil-microbial-biomass-a-30-year-study/

pedigree 6 · 23-10-2016 3:30pm

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

The Effects of Residue Return on Soil Microbial Biomass – A 30 Year Study

https://legumelaboratory.wordpress.com/2016/07/21/the-effects-of-residue-return-on-soil-microbial-biomass-a-30-year-study/

There was a time (before my time) when advisors in this country said to forget about dung and slurry and just spread fertiliser.
Now that didn't last long before they copped on a bit.

You shouldn't have put that up Buford.
Now teagasc will be telling everyone to get the topper out.:P
Good article though.

pedigree 6 · 23-10-2016 3:59pm

Buford when you put that article up and it mentioned nitrogen reducing soil ph.
I had to look it up and found this article.

http://www.grow-it-organically.com/changing-soil-ph.html

Buford T. Justice XIX · 23-10-2016 4:17pm

Last one today, I will have to go and do some bit of work today:D

Livestock’s Contributions to Climate Change: Facts and Fiction

http://www.afia.org/rc_files/801/livestocks_contribution_to_climate_change_facts_and_fiction.pdf

An interesting pdf showing that Agriculture is not the major cause of GHGs as is commonly said in the mainstream press but a tiny fraction in comparison to transport and energy sectors.

yosemitesam1 · 02-11-2016 9:51am

More to do with food than farming but very interesting bit on what the victorian diet was like compared to our own

bogman_bass · 03-11-2016 8:44pm

something for the dairy boys here

https://dairyscienceblog.wordpress.com/2016/10/13/is-a2-milk-going-to-make-us-healthy/

pedigree 6 · 03-11-2016 9:50pm

This could go in the farming and asthma thread started by buford.
But there's seemingly proven science to it now.
Women that grow up on farms have a good set of lungs.
(If ye didn't know that already):P:D

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/rural-life/its-official-growing-up-on-a-farm-is-good-for-you-35170433.html

yosemitesam1 · 12-11-2016 1:17pm

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2656316?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Compared to bent grass and Yorkshire fog, ryegrass had a negative effect on the total microbial populations present.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1942106?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Under fertilization plants reduce carbohydrate supplies to root micro-organisms, this favours the micro-organisms who are parasitic and will have an increased negative effect on wild grasses compared to ryegrass.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1890/07-1394.1/abstract

Heavily fertilized grass responds by allocating a much greater proportion of biomass to above the ground, the 'losers' who decline at high fertilization do so because they are not as good at restricting their root inputs to soil life and reducing root biomass.

These sort of explain why old pasture doesn't respond in the way reseeds do to fert, but its worth thinking about whether this is sustainable for the soil not to be getting those inputs from roots and microbe biomass. Are yield increases simply coming from not having to 'pay' microbes and roots to do the work of getting nutrients as maximum rates of photosynthesis are no higher between wild grasses and these new 'improved' ones...

Buford T. Justice XIX · 20-11-2016 3:12pm

Scientists tweak photosynthesis to boost crop yield

http://phys.org/news/2016-11-scientists-tweak-photosynthesis-boost-crop.html

Buford T. Justice XIX · 24-11-2016 5:15pm

Finally, a perfect solution to CO2 levels may have been found.

Scientists Accidentally Discover Efficient Process to Turn CO2 Into Ethanol

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/green-tech/a23417/convert-co2-into-ethanol/?linkId=31295074

I'll drink to that:D

Buford T. Justice XIX · 30-11-2016 10:10pm

A rather frightening look at antibiotic use in animals in the USA.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-drug-resistant-bacteria-travel-from-the-farm-to-your-table/?WT.mc_id=SA_TW_HLTH_FEAT

Buford T. Justice XIX · 10-12-2016 8:11pm

Gene editing yields tomatoes that flower and ripen weeks earlier

A little piece about CRISPR gene editing and what can be achieved but it will probably be opposed as well.

http://www.cshl.edu/news-and-features/gene-editing-yields-tomatoes-that-flower-and-ripen-weeks-earlier.html

yosemitesam1 · 25-12-2016 12:02pm

https://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S28/82/75G17/

Mooooo · 29-12-2016 12:43pm

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/scientists-develop-system-to-remove-phosphorus-from-slurry/

Farm science.

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