Dublin - Building heights

Dats me · 07-04-2019 12:07pm

Does it not look absolutely awful though? Just an ugly glass box that will be viewable everywhere in the city, at least Capital Dock is far away.

We absolutely need to go up, but is plonking a 22-story building beside Trinity, Dame street etc really the way to do it? Docklands should have all been twice the height, definitely. But the problem with density is that Ranelagh and Phibsborough and anywhere that's a 20 min walk from the city centre is two-story houses and that continues on. We need to triple the height there.

Mind you, I guess I wouldn't mind at all if it looked nice so maybe I'm juts rambling

Idbatterim · 07-04-2019 1:04pm

Dats me wrote: »

Does it not look absolutely awful though? Just an ugly glass box that will be viewable everywhere in the city, at least Capital Dock is far away.

We absolutely need to go up, but is plonking a 22-story building beside Trinity, Dame street etc really the way to do it? Docklands should have all been twice the height, definitely. But the problem with density is that Ranelagh and Phibsborough and anywhere that's a 20 min walk from the city centre is two-story houses and that continues on. We need to triple the height there.

Mind you, I guess I wouldn't mind at all if it looked nice so maybe I'm juts rambling

I’m glad it bring built BUT what kind of morons permit that there and then have the docklands waste of space filled with 6/7 floors buildings, including those lining the quays. It’s absolutely laughable !

prunudo · 07-04-2019 2:11pm

I think half the reason we end up with iffy looking buildings is because when an architect comes up with a contemporary or modern design the likes of an Taisce object and we're left with a horrible compromise. Rather than embracing change and working with modern design and existing buildings they are just a thorn in the side of progress.

gjim · 07-04-2019 5:37pm

I can't say I like this decision. I'm not a fan of the UK-style city planning where density is achieved by having relatively massive buildings randomly dotted around a lowrise city scape. I prefer the "separate new quarter model" for adding high rise to a lowrise city.

No matter what style of building, isolated tall buildings generally end up despised within a few years. Who loves Liberty Hall these days or even the Harp building at O'Connell bridge? The renderings don't inspire any confidence that this building has a different future in the hearts of Dubliners.

I actually love high-rise but only when such buildings are clustered. I'm a fan of the "Manhatten" effect and not the "Coventry" one. This particular building would be very welcome in the Docklands or as part of the cluster of new buildings at Heuston, for example.

It seems particularly mad that we're restricting buildings to 8 stories in the Docklands while allowing 22 stories in a place like this.

Zebra3 · 07-04-2019 8:17pm

South quays should be full of high rise buildings which would mean most of the sun being blocked would fall on the Liffey when people are at home in the evening.

hmmm · 07-04-2019 8:38pm

gjim wrote: »

I can't say I like this decision.

I agree with you re the prefer the clustered approach, but unfortunately the over-the-top opposition to high rise in the city has meant that the floodgates will now be opened as a reaction. The opposition groups have only themselves to blame - a proper debate and identification of a suitable city centre site for a cluster never happened because they never allowed it to happen.

I'm all for this development and hope it leads to many more. We are destroying our countryside with fields of houses owned by people commuting into the city, our public transport system is disgraceful, and the lives of hundreds of thousands of people are worse because of the opposition to proper height and density in the city. Let's hope that we see more residential and commercial towers very soon.

dubhthach · 07-04-2019 9:45pm

I wonder if someone will ever dust down the plans for the 35 story hotel that was proposed for the back of the Convention Center

Of course the original proposal for the area around the Convention Center back in 98/99 was something else! I can't seem to find any of drawings online but there are several of them in Frank McDonald's "The Construction of Dublin" from 2000. The only bit that was actually built was the Convention Center (and perhaps the PWC building)

Here's a quote from RTÉ from circa 2000.

The architect who designed the Spencer Dock development in Dublin has said he does not believe it intrudes on the historic heart of the city. Kevin Roche told the Bord Pleanála hearing he did not believe the buildings were high-rise, which he said began at forty floors. He said the Spencer Dock buildings were low to medium-rise. He added he would be prepared to lower the height of the buildings if they were considered too tall for Dublin. Mr Roche told the hearing that the scheme is meant to be international in order to attract foreign business.

Ciarán Cuffe was just as much a pox in 2000 as he is today.
http://www.ciarancuffe.com/back-to-the-drawing-board-for-spencer-dock-by-ciaran-cuffe-published-in-the-irish-independent-july-2000/

Idbatterim · 07-04-2019 9:54pm

I read during the week that failure ireland said Dublin not having a thousand bed hotel is damaging the conference business. Ronan owns the site of the proposed high rise hotel mentioned above , city block nine. Failte ireland also said they have had discussions with developers about building such a hotel in Dublin. Ronan would be the man for it , reckon they have had discussions

gjim · 07-04-2019 10:00pm

hmmm wrote: »

I agree with you re the prefer the clustered approach, but unfortunately the over-the-top opposition to high rise in the city has meant that the floodgates will now be opened as a reaction. The opposition groups have only themselves to blame - a proper debate and identification of a suitable city centre site for a cluster never happened because they never allowed it to happen.

I'm all for this development and hope it leads to many more. We are destroying our countryside with fields of houses owned by people commuting into the city, our public transport system is disgraceful, and the lives of hundreds of thousands of people are worse because of the opposition to proper height and density in the city. Let's hope that we see more residential and commercial towers very soon.

I'm with you on the lack of density in Dublin being a disgrace and that tackling it must be a priority. And that's why I say "I'm not sure" about my opinion on this
planning decision.

My worry is that buildings like this could queer the pitch for future tall buildings in Dublin and thus hinder the densification of the city.

Opposition to tall buildings in Dublin was until recently a very commonly held position amoung the public. I never agreed with it but accepted that it was based on real negative experiences with tall Dublin buildings: the Ballymun towers, Liberty Hall, Hawkins house, etc.

These developments killed support for building taller in Dublin for a generation. I don't want to see the same happening again and that's why I'm a little uneasy about this building despite being a fan of tall buildings. I don't find it particularly beautiful and suspect the public will not either.

The problem with isolated tall buildings is obvious - they stand out - so every blemish and aesthetic failure screams at you. They become notorious just because they are singular.

Ideally this building should be in the Docklands, Hueston or Sandyford (none of which should have any height restrictions whatsoever). On the other hand, this section of Tara St. has been a disgrace for years and something needs to be done at this corner - and this building is certainly "something" - I just hope it doesn't provoke a new backlash against tall buildings.

Idbatterim · 07-04-2019 10:06pm

This nonsense about ballymun is laughable. They put the dregs of society in them and low and behold it didn’t turn out well. They’d wreck houses too. I wonder if the same thing will happen to capital docks... L!O!L

Thrashssacre · 08-04-2019 12:11pm

It’s great to see the visible change in planing the past 18 months or so but I’d echo the worries above about any of the “tall” buildings being aesthetically pleasing. If we’re really gonna go 30-40 stories somewhere along the quays it damn well better look nice because if it’s anything like some of the atrocious messes we have in the city center at the moment you better believe they’ll be fierce opposition to any more decent sized buildings coming after it.

ToBeFrank123 · 09-04-2019 2:40pm

Pretty pathetic stuff from An Taisce.

Georgian Dublin was great and all that, but its laughably lacking in density for a modern European Capital city.

It had gotten to the stage where not only could you not knock down a crumbling old Georgian building to make way for modern high rise apartment and office block, you couldn't even put a high rise building within sight of a Georgian building.

No issue with preserving the low rise skyline within a small area of Dublin City centre around O'Connell Street, Grafton Street, Merrian Square, Kildare Street and a couple other historic areas like that. Apart from that, we have no choice but to go up, particularly in the Docklands.

22 stories is miniscule by international standards, it wouldn't even be considered a skyscraper. Given how the Dublin population is expanding, anything short of 40 or 50 stories at this stage will be a missed opportunity.

cgcsb · 09-04-2019 3:14pm

Interestingly the comments section of the papers are almost universally pro high rise, a sign of maturing attitudes.

An Taisce should probably be defunded at this stage, the group is meant to preserve heritage. Instead of doing this they have spent ridiculous sums on spurious appeals, claiming that the mere site of modernity is damaging to heritage. We mustn't build modern in sight of Georgian architecture yet we must also watch Georgian architecture crumble and rot because all the money is going on 'preserving vistas' of derelict buildings with no modern use while we're all banished to live in Kildare. If only some of that Taisce money were used on actual preservation of heritage.

ToBeFrank123 · 09-04-2019 3:26pm

There is a direct correlation between Dublin's current housing crisis and the lack of high rise and high density buildings in Dublin. I think we are all agreed on that from the comments I have read on here and elsewhere.

Those who work in the Silicon Docks and the like aren't particularly bothered about living in skyscrapers and would probably prefer that to renting a box room in a semi D.

The debate is over, its high rise all the way from now on for Dublin, with minimum heights of something like 8 stories also being set. The next debate is transport infrastructure, how much above or below ground.

cgcsb · 10-04-2019 10:13am

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

There is a direct correlation between Dublin's current housing crisis and the lack of high rise and high density buildings in Dublin. I think we are all agreed on that from the comments I have read on here and elsewhere.

Those who work in the Silicon Docks and the like aren't particularly bothered about living in skyscrapers and would probably prefer that to renting a box room in a semi D.

The debate is over, its high rise all the way from now on for Dublin, with minimum heights of something like 8 stories also being set. The next debate is transport infrastructure, how much above or below ground.

Dublin's inner suburbs are wedged with 20 something singles sharing family houses, when they'd all much prefer a tidy little studio in a central location for themselves where they don't have to worry about Aisling drinking all their oat milk.

Zebra3 · 10-04-2019 1:02pm

Not just the inner suburbs...

marno21 · 10-04-2019 1:14pm

Indeed. 20 somethings would prefer a centrally located apartment within walking distance of work and good transport links rather than having to live in Coolock in a family home and have to get the bus in and taxis at other times.

crushproof · 10-04-2019 6:22pm

cgcsb wrote: »

We mustn't build modern in sight of Georgian architecture yet we must also watch Georgian architecture crumble and rot because all the money is going on 'preserving vistas' of derelict buildings with no modern use while we're all banished to live in Kildare. If only some of that Taisce money were used on actual preservation of heritage.

Exactly, the state of some listed buildings in the city is deplorable, especially in the North inner city. Yet you rarely hear a peep out of them about this. It's infuriating, if they bothered doing what they were set up to do, preserving heritage, then the city would look a lot better than it does today. Instead they waste thousands on appeals left right and centre.

is_that_so · 10-04-2019 6:27pm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

There is a direct correlation between Dublin's current housing crisis and the lack of high rise and high density buildings in Dublin. I think we are all agreed on that from the comments I have read on here and elsewhere.

Those who work in the Silicon Docks and the like aren't particularly bothered about living in skyscrapers and would probably prefer that to renting a box room in a semi D.

The debate is over, its high rise all the way from now on for Dublin, with minimum heights of something like 8 stories also being set. The next debate is transport infrastructure, how much above or below ground.

It's higher density not just height for the sake of it. With better overall density a lot more benefits accrue, particularly in relation to the kind of transport we can have.

cgcsb · 10-04-2019 8:52pm

crushproof wrote: »

Exactly, the state of some listed buildings in the city is deplorable, especially in the North inner city. Yet you rarely hear a peep out of them about this. It's infuriating, if they bothered doing what they were set up to do, preserving heritage, then the city would look a lot better than it does today. Instead they waste thousands on appeals left right and centre.

I see they've recently delved into critiquing the contents of children's lunch boxes in the name of climate change. A worthy cause may be, but extremely far from their remit

AndrewJRenko · 19-04-2019 9:53pm

dubhthach wrote: »

I wonder if someone will ever dust down the plans for the 35 story hotel that was proposed for the back of the Convention Center

They'd have to leave a tunnel for the Luas line if they tried it now.

marno21 · 22-04-2019 11:59am

Interesting advert in yesterday's Sunday Times.

https://twitter.com/TomLyonsBiz/status/1120006773782528005

L1011 · 22-04-2019 7:19pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

They'd have to leave a tunnel for the Luas line if they tried it now.

The site is still there for it - it was to be very very shallow

JohnC. · 22-04-2019 7:56pm

Who's ad is that in the Times? I assume it must say somewhere on the page, but the image doesn't show the full thing.

marno21 · 22-04-2019 7:58pm

JohnC. wrote: »

Who's ad is that in the Times? I assume it must say somewhere on the page, but the image doesn't show the full thing.

The ad is unsigned - no mention of who put it in there.

22-04-2019 9:30pm

The CEO of Salesforce wanted a Salesforce tower in every hub where they have a large presence. He had to be told that unfortunately in Dublin it wasn’t possible at the time. Hence why the term ‘Tower’ is still being kept but it’s more of a campus type setup.

At least it will get into double digits if Johnny gets the go ahead to increase it from 9 to 11, still far short of a tower.

marno21 · 23-04-2019 11:24am

Some common sense shining through

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/green-light-under-fast-track-planning-for-265-apartments-on-dulux-site-1.3868339

265 apartments beside a Luas stop is what Dublin needs in droves.

cgcsb · 23-04-2019 11:41am

marno21 wrote: »

Some common sense shining through

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/green-light-under-fast-track-planning-for-265-apartments-on-dulux-site-1.3868339

265 apartments beside a Luas stop is what Dublin needs in droves.

Some relief. You'd have to wonder what goes through the objectors heads. The development includes a new cafe and shop, would you not be delighted? Not to mention that about 500 other fellow human beings would have somewhere to live.

Rulmeq · 23-04-2019 12:05pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Some relief. You'd have to wonder what goes through the objectors heads. The development includes a new cafe and shop, would you not be delighted? Not to mention that about 500 other fellow human beings would have somewhere to live.

It does say for rent only though, so that just results in the 500 fellow human beings being transient with no attachement to the area. It's good that they are doing it (I've driven past those empty plots along the canal for the past few years and had to wonder why there's a shortage of housing with that going to waste)

blanch152 · 23-04-2019 12:26pm

marno21 wrote: »

Some common sense shining through

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/green-light-under-fast-track-planning-for-265-apartments-on-dulux-site-1.3868339

265 apartments beside a Luas stop is what Dublin needs in droves.

A number of other sites in that area could do with the same treatment.

markpb · 23-04-2019 12:55pm

Rulmeq wrote: »

It does say for rent only though, so that just results in the 500 fellow human beings being transient with no attachement to the area.

Cities worldwide, including Dublin, have huge numbers of people renting. We've got to stop pretending it's a bad thing or that tenants are any less deserving of housing. Plenty of home owners in cities have little or no involvement in their local area.

cgcsb · 23-04-2019 1:26pm

Rulmeq wrote: »

It does say for rent only though, so that just results in the 500 fellow human beings being transient with no attachement to the area. It's good that they are doing it (I've driven past those empty plots along the canal for the past few years and had to wonder why there's a shortage of housing with that going to waste)

There has to be a space for transient people. You can't buy your forever family home and pick your forever job when you're 22.

Zebra3 · 23-04-2019 1:29pm

markpb wrote: »

Cities worldwide, including Dublin, have huge numbers of people renting. We've got to stop pretending it's a bad thing or that tenants are any less deserving of housing. Plenty of home owners in cities have little or no involvement in their local area.

While that’s true, the rights they have aren’t as good as what’s on offer in a lot of other European cities.

cgcsb · 23-04-2019 1:29pm

markpb wrote: »

local area.

As a complete off topic, I'd love to get to the bottom of the Irishisms that dominate conversations about geography. My faves:

-"local area"
-"rural town"
-Absolute disregard for the names of streets or numbers on doors etc.
:pac:

AndrewJRenko · 23-04-2019 10:20pm

L1011 wrote: »

The site is still there for it - it was to be very very shallow

On the 'patio' area? https://goo.gl/maps/diwduHictmZSbhME6

L1011 · 23-04-2019 10:54pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

On the 'patio' area? https://goo.gl/maps/diwduHictmZSbhME6

Yes. Entirely. Very shallow, full width of the CCD and very tall. The Luas line was already under construction when this was proposed - its open nearly a decade now.

Wouldn't have had any carparking etc - just that already under the CCD

https://www.voltimum.ie/articles/national-conference-centre-hotel-shay

24-04-2019 11:41am

marno21 wrote: »

Interesting advert in yesterday's Sunday Times.

https://twitter.com/TomLyonsBiz/status/1120006773782528005

Wonder who placed the ad :pac:

https://www.thejournal.ie/johnny-ronan-sues-dublin-city-council-4604246-Apr2019/

AndrewJRenko · 27-04-2019 5:51pm

L1011 wrote: »

Yes. Entirely. Very shallow, full width of the CCD and very tall. The Luas line was already under construction when this was proposed - its open nearly a decade now.

Wouldn't have had any carparking etc - just that already under the CCD

https://www.voltimum.ie/articles/national-conference-centre-hotel-shay

That might explain the somewhat 'unfinished' look at the back of the Convention Centre. It looks like they spent all the money on the fancy front, and were left with a massive flat wall of concrete at the back.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 27-04-2019 10:39pm

You can look at these tweets to see what we are up against.

This hysteria in the IT and the Indo that Ireland is becoming a nation of renters because high density.

https://twitter.com/Eamonnmoran/status/1122188061297786880?s=20

https://twitter.com/Orla_Hegarty/status/1122199031181189121?s=20

28-04-2019 12:46am

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

You can look at these tweets to see what we are up against.

This hysteria in the IT and the Indo that Ireland is becoming a nation of renters because high density.

That Mark Keenan article is some wild hyperbole alright, but he is their property editor. It's fairly standard stuff and what the indo was pimping back in the boom right up to the point when it all blew up in our faces.

Repeat after me: "Renting bad, buying good"....."you'll never go wrong with bricks & mortar" etc etc etc

Amirani · 28-04-2019 11:06am

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

That Mark Keenan article is some wild hyperbole alright, but he is their property editor. It's fairly standard stuff and what the indo was pimping back in the boom right up to the point when it all blew up in our faces.

Repeat after me: "Renting bad, buying good"....."you'll never go wrong with bricks & mortar" etc etc etc

It's a shameful article from Mark Keenan. Zero journalistic or editorial integrity to have that published.

I'm critical of much the Irish Times publishes, particularly in relation to infrastructure projects, but in fairness, I don't think their standards are ever that low. The Indo is desperate at times.

Dats me · 28-04-2019 4:16pm

This on The Irish Times. Why aren't any of the parties anti-NIMBY given this is the public mood?

AndrewJRenko · 28-04-2019 5:15pm

Dats me wrote: »

This on The Irish Times. Why aren't any of the parties anti-NIMBY given this is the public mood?

Photo not appearing?

Dats me · 28-04-2019 5:31pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Photo not appearing?

https://imgur.com/a/kn0c2H5

Does that work? It's a screengrab of the Irish Times link to the article on the Glasnevin apartments and the comments complaining about it not being tall enough and that nine stories isn't a tower.

28-04-2019 5:53pm

Amirani wrote: »

It's a shameful article from Mark Keenan. Zero journalistic or editorial integrity to have that published.

Check out his LinkedIn . He's basically spent 80% of his almost 30 year career writing property sections.

He's not a news / investigative / current affairs type journalist, he's mostly just a shill for estate agents....

marno21 · 29-04-2019 1:00am

Whatever about the journalistic side of that article, the comments in that article from politicians are a symptom of the cancer on Irish society that has us with this mess of being unable to build anything of use to anyone for fear of creating minor inconvenience to people.

Lets take this development and examine it fundamentally. This site is located on one of the main thoroughfares into the city centre, already well served by bus services and well within cycling distance of the city centre. However, in 8 years time (which won't be far after its built), it'll be located:

Along TWO core bus corridors
250m walk away from a Metro station and TWO DART line stations, which will be the biggest transport interchange in the country.

Dublin has a shortage of housing, an even bigger shortage of housing with decent transport links and transport infrastructure. This plot of land will be one of the best served in the country by public transport, with two DART lines, the buses and Metros every 90 seconds. No one would even think of driving in this area at peak times.

If land like this can't be developed for apartments; there will be no end to the housing crisis. The opposition parties are constantly criticising the Government for their (lack of/inadequate) housing policy. Lets see what the opposition says:

FF Councillor Paul McAuliffe: "monsterous", “A two-storey building beside nine- storey building, I think it’s shocking.”
SF Seamus McGrattan: "“a dangerous precedent in other areas of the city”.
PBP Andrew Keegan argued on future ownership of the development rather than the development itself (this is not a reason to object in a housing shortage).
Labour Cllr Aine Clancy said it would be "overbearing" on existing buildings in the area alongside the partly completed new one.

If this is the best that we have to offer, there is no end in sight for the ongoing housing problem. 9 storey buildings within (or beside) the canals should be the standard, not something to object to.

holliehobbie · 29-04-2019 2:36am

marno21 wrote: »

Some common sense shining through

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/green-light-under-fast-track-planning-for-265-apartments-on-dulux-site-1.3868339

265 apartments beside a Luas stop is what Dublin needs in droves.

Unless you happen to live very near it and have to worry about the extra people trying to get on the Luas in the morning like I will. Plus my daughter was all excited and said maybe she could buy one of the apartments when they're built. She was fuming when she heard they were all for rental!!

Rulmeq · 29-04-2019 7:56am

marno21 wrote: »

Labour Cllr Aine Clancy said it would be "overbearing" on existing buildings in the area alongside the partly completed new one.

I've a very easy solution to "overbearing" - build several tall blocks there

The most common objection I see to any plans is "out of character with the area", well yeah, the first time you do something of course it is, and the more you prevent it, then nothing will ever change.

marno21 wrote: »

PBP Andrew Keegan argued on future ownership of the development rather than the development itself (this is not a reason to object in a housing shortage).

So he was perfectly fine with Gannon buidling 3bed semi's that cost €1.5million each on the site instead?

29-04-2019 8:23am

holliehobbie wrote: »

Unless you happen to live very near it and have to worry about the extra people trying to get on the Luas in the morning like I will. Plus my daughter was all excited and said maybe she could buy one of the apartments when they're built. She was fuming when she heard they were all for rental!!

People need places to rent. Not everybody wants to buy or needs to buy.

marno21 · 05-05-2019 3:05pm

Johnny Ronan has submitted outline plans for a 44 storey/155m building in the Docklands

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/battle-for-the-dublin-skyline-are-you-ready-for-johnny-ronans-world-class-hanging-gardens-38079925.html

Dublin - Building heights

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