Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

The difference there being the 1.6 with gold wheels and a WRX sticker did the job , effectively and probably more efficently than a genuine sti - it was going to get the lad to work on monday morning and drive around the town with the stereo blasting at the weekend - with less chance of blowing the turbo or needing an expensive tech to tune it - cos it was never going to actually be raced ..

However if the state wants air-policing that wont really cut it, it may not need an f35 or a rafalle but it would need something more than an m346 , fine if thats a step in the programme, but it seems a bit unnecessary

Even disregarding the Microlight example(not that it's irrelevant , it isn't but countering a microlight crosses with the same threat ID, low, slow and likely armed as mini Drones)Ukraine, Nagorno Karabakh, Syria and the rest of the ME have highlighted the need for HMG and small calibre AAA(sub 40mm) in the anti-Drone role.

If you're threat matrix includes drones? A nation would quickly run out of SAM if they didn't have AAA and ideally proximity fused or AHEAD style fuzing available.

Drone swarms and kamikaze drones are a new reality and they cannot be met effectively with high cost SAM. Even the "cheap" stinger, igla and similar manpads are orders of magnitude more expensive than a drone with a 3D printed grenade harness.

Skyranger and other CRAM have a part to play in point defence, but? HMG with appropriate Thermal and NVG will fill the gap between fixed CRAM positions and Gepard/SkyRanger style systems.

The SkyRanger turret and CV90 pair up is one that will do well on international market IMO.

**Edit** I've just realised that the 30mm SkyRanger turret has been adapted for MOWAG Piranha/Stryker hulls. Not that out lot would see that as advantageous.

What other type in service today would you expect the FA50 to defeat in air-to-air combat?

Cos if I were in a Mig-29 or an SU-35 or a J-20, I'd laugh my absolute ass off to see one coming for me.

@Larbre34 There is some merit in what you say. What real defensive bang do you get for your buck with the FA-50 or M346FA? We will spend a billion and comit to maybe 100-150 million a year to maintain the basic intercept capability, but how much more secure will Ireland be for that? Dohvoille and Tippilot make fair points about building up experience, but s a non aviator, is an FA-50 not about 90% of the way to an F16 or Grippen, in terms of learning curve, already?. In a sense, all defence procurement is, for most coutries outside very active zones, a protection against unlikely, but not impossible events. But as it stands at present Bears are NEVER, straying into Irish airspace! Also, as JonnyBW points out, Mig29s and J20s are never in our airspace either. But the truth is, if there was ever a real possibility that Bears might deliberately enter Irish airspace we would be in a scenario where other combat aircraft entering our airspace would be a very real possibility. If we are beginning to get serious about defence, we need to think about this, as the idea that we only need a few jets to ward off Bears that are really interested in probing UK and not Irish airspace seems to me to be us doing the UK's job for them. I think BTW that we do need much better air defences, but we should be doing so in a way that best defends Ireland, and our partners / allies, but with the emphasis on Ireland.

@banie01 I think 16 is a minimum, but I agree with a lot of what you say. At least initially as much should be done by experienced contractors as possible. In time the Air Corps / Air Force, may take on more of thse roles, but initially we need to get up and running on so many fronts, so quickly, there will have to be some expertise bought in.

Not at all. It's a very common means of building capabilities. Fighter sales are big business, Govt to Govt sales. Everything that can be done to facilitate those type of sales and transfers is done.

It's why so many privately contracted maintainers are in Saudi and other gulf states. Prior to that, the USSR was very fond of lending "advisors" along with their Monkey variants and why any nation that got Sov spec, was also awash with technical staff. The US, UK, Russia, France and other airframe exporters all have done similarly.

A fair point on keeping the pilot cadre congruent and qualified, particularly as the entire basis of successful fighter missions is the 2 ship & 4 ship formations. Building comradeship and élan is vital and that's done by keeping crews and squadrons together.

SAAB have put a lot of effort into the Brazilian training programme. It gives a great onward career path for Swedish instructors. Even the UK ETPS has gone private and is now run by Qinetiq. Developing our requirements to align with the fast jet training options available in EU is a means of Ireland ensuring we get best bang for buck.

The pilot and maintainer training is a huge part of any sales pitch that the manufacturers will make. All the main manufacturers will seek to offer either worthwhile training that will develop our own training cadre, or they will try and sell their ground care package alà Saudi, which is I feel the wrong route to set our hat on. If we can provide our maintainers and pilots the challenge of good equipment and more importantly, pay them properly! We can build a service that folks can once again feel proud to join and one that offers a career.

Was that yoke really pulling Mach 1.4 over Lough Swilly and north Donegal?

Breaks apart at Mach 1.2.

Realistically it will top out at 44% the speed of a Typhoon FGR4.

Making it a beyond hilarious suggestion for air policing and QRA.

just saw that myself now... thanks

Right lads, someone on here knows what the craic with this. https://www.oceanfm.ie/2023/10/12/defence-forces-allays-concerns-after-army-jets-spotted-over-sligo/

This 'news story' about "army jets" is clearly missing so much information and makes zero sense.

Several users on twitter reported "fighter jets" over sligo. It's disappointing that there is a huge fear to acknowledge any sort of cooperation with any "imperialist" nation who might tarnish our "neutrality"(if such a thing exists in 2023) by bringing their "war machines" to our sovereign lands. sigh

It's like Fr Ted.

edit: actually my mind is racing now :) a eurofighter can land in 500-700m. The runway at Strandhill is 1000m long. Hardly doing a touch and go?

Oh man... if journalists and the public identify pc12s as 'fighter jets' with one person on twitter commenting "I thought a plane was coming down"... it doesn't really bode well for actually acquiring jets... People would have a breakdown. lol

Poland are seemingly intent on buying more fighters. The local press is calling for superlative air-air performance and in particular performance capable of counter-air in the face of Sukhoi Su35.

Oddly, the article attached seems to think that capability only exists in 2 current airframes. The f15-EX and the Eurofighter. On a top trumps basis, that does appear true, but? In reality apart from outright speed and ceiling the Rafale and Gripen are also well able for the role and can do it with far greater range thanks to Metor BVR.

One crucial factor to consider for anyone buying airframes to counter Russian aircraft? Is that despite them all being large and hugely visible on radar, they carry missile systems that can likely hit western aircraft outside of current max AIM120 range, well at least 120C.

R37 is now carried by Su35 as well as the MiG31, its very long range is a threat. A bigger threat is the R77 which outranges most common AIM120 versions. Meaning Western fighters would have to enter well within Russian missile range to fire anything below an AIM120-C8.

Now the reason I write about this on the "Fighter jets for Ireland Thread", is that as more and more western countries reassess their own defence needs? There will be a tighter than ever supply of new and 2nd hand airframes for Ireland to consider.

The current supply of F16-MLU that were becoming available as NATO members moved to new airframes? Well between Ukraine and the recently arranged deal for Argentina to take over 24 Danish F16s means years are again being added to any possible Irish acquisitions.

True that there are no plans even apparently long term for Irish acquisitions. I see no issue though in highlighting both the changes in aircraft availability due to a dramatic change in geopolitical circumstances and the rapidly diminishing supply of even 2nd airframes.

Not to rehash the conversation that was had after the publication of the commission report, but I'm sure most of us regular (ish) posters on this sub-forum would agree that the report itself became outdated as soon as Russia invaded Ukraine. We are no longer in a world where saying LOA2 is acceptable as a realistic defence posture.

The UK has a small but high end Air combat capability that is far too small for them to be able to support high tempo, high threat operations in face of a near peer adversary. We have to accept that as NATO and UK in particular refocus on threats in the East, that the UK's capacity and indeed willingness to fly Typhoons along with the necessary tankers out west to police Ireland's air defence/policing gap is decreasing.

RAF is now smaller than France, Germany, Italy and approaching parity with Spain, those Services are all actively expanding whilst the RAF is still cutting. Their F35 joint force that was planned as 138 aircraft? May yet stall out at 72. Where other countries have committed to more Eurofighters, Spain & Italy, the RAF is still not even committed to a like for like replacement of their retired tranche 1s.

We in Ireland are in the unenviable position of relying solely on the RAF to pick up our slack, when the RAF is running out of capacity to ensure it can manage its current commitments at home and overseas.

Considering European NATO members have just committed even more airborne patrol squadrons of all types to the Baltic and tankerage to support them, I'd have serious doubts about that.

They have had units in Eastern Europe operating almost to a wartime level of operations or nearly two years now. We know that these tankers are relatively few and many quite old.

My point is, when are some of these scarce and aged assets going to have to be withdrawn for major overhaul and where is the capacity coming from to replace them?

My theory is, that the Western European coast is not nearly as well protected, in depth, as NATO might like.