Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

Pixel Eater · 26-01-2021 11:44am

jumpinsheep wrote: »

One of the latest Dublin Commuter Coalition tweet (23rd Jan 21):
"Metrolink will begin Construction next Summer. BusConnects will begin implementation this year. The Public want to have a say in these projects. Public consultation is a good thing."

I'm not convinced that public consultations is necessarily a good thing. Great in theory but in practice they slow the whole process down massively and can be used to dilute or even scupper entire projects. At least how they are done here.

p_haugh · 26-01-2021 8:36pm

Bit of an update (see full thread):

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1354105330167382017?s=20

Rulmeq · 02-02-2021 7:25am

Out of interest have they said if they are going to use overhead wires, or 3rd rail for this?

1huge1 · 02-02-2021 9:51am

Rulmeq wrote: »

Out of interest have they said if they are going to use overhead wires, or 3rd rail for this?

Is it normal to see overhead wires in underground sections?

LXFlyer · 02-02-2021 10:53am

Rulmeq wrote: »

Out of interest have they said if they are going to use overhead wires, or 3rd rail for this?

Overhead wires.

1huge1 wrote: »

Is it normal to see overhead wires in underground sections?

Perfectly normal - plenty of examples.

Rulmeq · 02-02-2021 3:34pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Overhead wires.

Cool, I think they look better.

1huge1 · 02-02-2021 3:42pm

Cool, I've never seen overhead wires in an underground station/tunnel before.

Definitely a plus from a safety aspect too.

tallaghtfornia · 02-02-2021 4:55pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Overhead wires.

Perfectly normal - plenty of examples.

City Hall Sydney Australia would be a perfect example of this.

Amirani · 02-02-2021 5:11pm

https://www.thejournal.ie/sinkhole-phibsborough-road-5341330-Feb2021/

Tunnel portal in place at Crossguns Bridge. Ahead of schedule and not even in the original plans...

Pete_Cavan · 02-02-2021 8:29pm

They better not decide that they need another ground investigation after that!

cgcsb · 02-02-2021 9:23pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

They better not decide that they need another ground investigation after that!

Surely not, at least not without a further round of consultation, this time Castletownbere residents will get to give their views.

Sam Russell · 02-02-2021 9:27pm

Rulmeq wrote: »

Out of interest have they said if they are going to use overhead wires, or 3rd rail for this?

O/H @ 1500 VDC as per Dart.

BonnieSituation · 02-02-2021 11:58pm

1huge1 wrote: »

Cool, I've never seen overhead wires in an underground station/tunnel before.

Definitely a plus from a safety aspect too.

Happens in Hannover where the trams go straight under the city centre,

jumpinsheep · 04-02-2021 3:53pm

p_haugh wrote: »

Bit of an update (see full thread):

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1354105330167382017?s=20

Would be nice to know why hasn't that drawing been first published by TII in their official Metrolink website > Artist's Impression page.

The tweet mention "rarely seen" (where before?) but that drawing doesn't seem to be included in any other existing public document in the Reports page (unless I missed it and I'll be happy to be pointed to).

Also interesting, are these other recent tweets from the Dublin Commuter Coalition (link: twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1356722117870510080?s=20). While it is for BusConnect (and I'm well aware that BusConnect is not a topic for this thread), I'd like to highlight the following:

We have confirmation that the new BusConnects network implementation will not start in March as planned before COVID. [...] They didn't publicly announce a March 2021 rollout. The timetables above are from the May 2020 implementation strategy which we received through freedom of information. The September 2020 report said it would be launched in "early 2021".[...]

Thanks to a FOI request, they were able to publicly share that BusConnect project is experiencing delay - wonder if there would be ground to submit a FOI request about Metrolink, with the aim to obtain a similar and accurate project status?

Last official update in the Metrolink website was in Dec 2020; they refer to an update made in October (2020 I guess?) but the News page in their website only shows an update in Feb and Dec 2020 - does anyone know more about that Oct update they mention or where to find it?

Here's the reference and screenshots attached:

TII continues to develop the MetroLink scheme in preparation for the Railway Order application which it anticipates will be made in June 2021. Preparation of the Preliminary Business Case is also well advanced in accordance with the summary timetable issued with the October update.

yascaoimhin · 02-03-2021 2:48pm

I wish Metrolink would throw us a crumb of info to wet our appetites.

So many people think the project isn't going forwards after the debacle in Ranelagh 2 years ago.

marno21 · 02-03-2021 7:24pm

yascaoimhin wrote: »

I wish Metrolink would throw us a crumb of info to wet our appetites.

So many people think the project isn't going forwards after the debacle in Ranelagh 2 years ago.

No news is good news in this instance. Project is currently being prepared for submission for planning

We should see a submission to ABP and the commencement of the procurement process of MetroLink in the next 6 months.

Going by Metrolink’s own plans, this thread is a sleeping giant atm that will really take off shortly.

cgcsb · 03-03-2021 2:22pm

marno21 wrote: »

No news is good news in this instance. Project is currently being prepared for submission for planning

We should see a submission to ABP and the commencement of the procurement process of MetroLink in the next 6 months.

Going by Metrolink’s own plans, this thread is a sleeping giant atm that will really take off shortly.

Hope you're right. So long overdue already. Need to see some digging

hinfeyg2 · 03-03-2021 5:55pm

Any idea/speculation on how covid will affect this? Budget wise?

CatInABox · 03-03-2021 6:02pm

hinfeyg2 wrote: »

Any idea/speculation on how covid will affect this? Budget wise?

I doubt that this will be affected by the budget, it seems that most central banks and the ECB are preaching that you can't spend enough money right now.

Also, there's a sense that the irish economy will recover pretty fast, what with the amount of savings that Irish people have, which should reduce any perceived covid deficit.

Sam Russell · 03-03-2021 7:05pm

CatInABox wrote: »

I doubt that this will be affected by the budget, it seems that most central banks and the ECB are preaching that you can't spend enough money right now.

Also, there's a sense that the irish economy will recover pretty fast, what with the amount of savings that Irish people have, which should reduce any perceived covid deficit.

The Gov could offer some form of Metrolink Bond that would soak up some of this huge stash of cash sitting in bank earning zero interest. A five year bond earning a low few percent tax free might do it. The ESB used to offer bonds at one time, I think.

marno21 · 03-03-2021 11:52pm

https://twitter.com/dublincommuters/status/1367227493766340613?s=21

Pete_Cavan · 04-03-2021 8:15am

Fantastic. Hopefully BIM utilisation will ensure a more comprehensive design which is also easily adaptable, smoothing the planning process and thereafter allowing them progress to construction.

noelfirl · 04-03-2021 10:48am

marno21 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/dublincommuters/status/1367227493766340613?s=21

*Grinds teeth loudly*

I flinch slightly at the statement that Metrolink's main goal is to "deliver an integrated public transport system" when the station on St. Stephen's Green is on the opposite side of the Green to the Luas stop (and yes, I know there are longer interchange distances at multiple other points on the planet, just still)...

Sam Russell · 04-03-2021 10:50am

noelfirl wrote: »

*Grinds teeth loudly*

I flinch slightly at the statement that Metrolink's main goal is to "deliver an integrated public transport system" when the station on St. Stephen's Green is on the opposite side of the Green to the Luas stop...

But it is at the same place at Charlemont.

noelfirl · 04-03-2021 10:58am

Sam Russell wrote: »

But it is at the same place at Charlemont.

Fair point.

(I guess I'm just delusionally holding out the final hope of Stephen's Green as a proper multi-modal-including-DART interchange. And yes, I know that's even more of a delusion since DART+ plonked a surface station at Spencer Dock)

Amirani · 04-03-2021 11:47am

Sam Russell wrote: »

But it is at the same place at Charlemont.

And same place as the Dart at Tara (close to Luas here also).

With Dart Underground being shelved, perhaps indefinitely, making a Dart interchange at Tara instead of Stephen's Green made much more sense.

AngryLips · 04-03-2021 12:12pm

noelfirl wrote: »

*Grinds teeth loudly*

I flinch slightly at the statement that Metrolink's main goal is to "deliver an integrated public transport system" when the station on St. Stephen's Green is on the opposite side of the Green to the Luas stop (and yes, I know there are longer interchange distances at multiple other points on the planet, just still)...

Why improve on the very high standard set by the interchange between Green and Red Luas lines? :rolleyes:

roadmaster · 04-03-2021 12:45pm

maybe its common with modern undergrounds but like the safety system in the video where the track cant be encroached on from the platform

p_haugh · 04-03-2021 1:09pm

I could be wrong here, but isn't the reason that the Stephens green station isn't linked up to the tram stop due to a sewer being in the way and also a stop in that location wouldnt suit the alignment needed to get from Tara to charlemont?

MJohnston · 04-03-2021 1:17pm

roadmaster wrote: »

maybe its common with modern undergrounds but like the safety system in the video where the track cant be encroached on from the platform

That is specifically because Metro is designed to be a driverless system. The above-ground stations will have some automated barriers too.

cgcsb · 04-03-2021 1:30pm

A 400m walk through a park is a decent interchange. If DART U is built I'm sure an underground link between the two will also be possible.

riddlinrussell · 04-03-2021 1:47pm

cgcsb wrote: »

A 400m walk through a park is a decent interchange. If DART U is built I'm sure an underground link between the two will also be possible.

If DART U still takes the Stephen's Green routing then that station would basically open to the Luas at one end and the Metro at the other, given the length of the platforms. That said depending on curves etc Tara/Trinity interchange might be more likely (and has been discussed previously)

The Automated doors are definitely for Automated trains, but are definitely a modern metro thing generally, the Jubilee line in London has them in places like Canary Wharf.

Pete_Cavan · 04-03-2021 1:47pm

p_haugh wrote: »

I could be wrong here, but isn't the reason that the Stephens green station isn't linked up to the tram stop due to a sewer being in the way and also a stop in that location wouldnt suit the alignment needed to get from Tara to charlemont?

The sewer is along the canal limiting the vertical alignment and preventing Metro surfacing at Charlemont. It doesn't affect the horizontal alignment at SSG so having the station on the other side of the Green is in theory possible but doing so would require digging up part of the Green and/or disruption to the existing Green Line. As others have said, the proposed interchange is not that big an issue and the change could happen one stop further north or south if people preferred. The current location is also on a straighter line between Tara and Charlemont, the previous station was based on the next station north being at OCB and no station further south so that station location may not fit with the new curvature.

AngryLips · 04-03-2021 2:05pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The sewer is along the canal limiting the vertical alignment and preventing Metro surfacing at Charlemont. It doesn't affect the horizontal alignment at SSG so having the station on the other side of the Green is in theory possible but doing so would require digging up part of the Green and/or disruption to the existing Green Line. As others have said, the proposed interchange is not that big an issue and the change could happen one stop further north or south if people preferred. The current location is also on a straighter line between Tara and Charlemont, the previous station was based on the next station north being at OCB and no station further south so that station location may not fit with the new curvature.

It's still a shame that it's on the wrong side of the green compared to previous plans. Catchment is key here and a distance like that will deter shorter journeys on MN within the city core. For example, who is put off using Luas to hop to the other side of the city centre when traveling south? The same disincentive doesn't really happen for the same journey traveling north ...the reason? Marlborough Luas stop is on the wrong side of Henry Street if you're looking to go south whereas OCS stop is smack bang where you want to get off.

Pete_Cavan · 04-03-2021 2:25pm

AngryLips wrote: »

It's still a shame that it's on the wrong side of the green compared to previous plans. Catchment is key here and a distance like that will deter shorter journeys on MN within the city core. For example, who is put off using Luas to hop to the other side of the city centre when traveling south? The same disincentive doesn't really happen for the same journey traveling north ...the reason? Marlborough Luas stop is on the wrong side of Henry Street if you're looking to go south whereas OCS stop is smack bang where you want to get off.

I wouldn't consider it the wrong side of the Green, the station is to serve the entire south city centre and would do that equally well from any side of SSG. One side might be a bit more convenient for some people but that will equally be less convenient for others. A 5 minute walk isn't an issue really. You can't compare Metro journeys, which intended for longer distances, to people using Luas for short hops within the city centre. Between SSG and north OCS, there are 3 Luas stops but will only be 3 Metro stops, that is just the nature of the different systems. Metro is intended to facilitate longer journeys quicker, i.e. airport to city centre, the trade off for that fast journey is having to walk a bit further when you get off compared to a tram system.

LXFlyer · 04-03-2021 2:39pm

AngryLips wrote: »

It's still a shame that it's on the wrong side of the green compared to previous plans. Catchment is key here and a distance like that will deter shorter journeys on MN within the city core. For example, who is put off using Luas to hop to the other side of the city centre when traveling south? The same disincentive doesn't really happen for the same journey traveling north ...the reason? Marlborough Luas stop is on the wrong side of Henry Street if you're looking to go south whereas OCS stop is smack bang where you want to get off.

This is a bit daft.

People have managed to walk to Kildare St and St Stephen’s Green East to catch Stillorgan Road buses and to the George’s Street corridor for Rathmines & the SCR for years.

Around O’Connell Street people manage to walk to Lower Abbey St to get their Howth Road bus home, and Eden Quay for the Malahide Road.

Are you seriously suggesting that LUAS users cannot cope with a *shorter* walk than bus users?

SSG East will also provide a more direct connection with bus routes post-BusConnects, with three spines using that side of the Green, serving southeast, south and southwest Dublin.

MJohnston · 04-03-2021 5:00pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The sewer is along the canal limiting the vertical alignment and preventing Metro surfacing at Charlemont. It doesn't affect the horizontal alignment at SSG so having the station on the other side of the Green is in theory possible but doing so would require digging up part of the Green and/or disruption to the existing Green Line. As others have said, the proposed interchange is not that big an issue and the change could happen one stop further north or south if people preferred. The current location is also on a straighter line between Tara and Charlemont, the previous station was based on the next station north being at OCB and no station further south so that station location may not fit with the new curvature.

No, if you look at the Preferred Route report they *do* mention a major sewer as a reason why they moved the SSG slightly from the Emerging Preferred Route location. So there is definitely one in the SSG vicinity too.

VonLuck · 04-03-2021 5:27pm

It's a 350m walk through the park. 4 minutes to get from one side to the other. There are longer travel times between platforms in the same station for the London underground. A non-issue in my opinion.

Sam Russell · 04-03-2021 5:59pm

VonLuck wrote: »

It's a 350m walk through the park. 4 minutes to get from one side to the other. There are longer travel times between platforms in the same station for the London underground. A non-issue in my opinion.

It is a non issue if they build it - anyway but soon.

Sam Russell · 04-03-2021 6:00pm

VonLuck wrote: »

It's a 350m walk through the park. 4 minutes to get from one side to the other. There are longer travel times between platforms in the same station for the London underground. A non-issue in my opinion.

It is a non issue if they build it - anyway but soon.

BonnieSituation · 04-03-2021 7:38pm

Well it wouldn't be a bad Idea to have an underpass to at least "psychologically" link them when then time comes.

But as with everything, let's get it built first and we can fix it after.

donvito99 · 04-03-2021 9:23pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Well it wouldn't be a bad Idea to have an underpass to at least "psychologically" link them when then time comes.

But as with everything, let's get it built first and we can fix it after.

It would probably be easier and cheaper to scrap the existing SSG Luas stop and bring the line the other way around the Green and back to Harcourt St from Stephen's Green South.

Pete_Cavan · 04-03-2021 9:46pm

MJohnston wrote: »

No, if you look at the Preferred Route report they *do* mention a major sewer as a reason why they moved the SSG slightly from the Emerging Preferred Route location. So there is definitely one in the SSG vicinity too.

Are you talking about this in the Preferred Route report;

7.16. St Stephen’s Green
This station will be located as previously proposed at St Stephen’s Green East.
We’re moving the station back slightly from Merrion Row to allow Hume Street
to remain open during construction easing the impact on traffic. We’re also
moving it further west under St Stephen’s Green to avoid closing the road during construction and avoid a major sewer that would otherwise require diversion. We are consulting closely with Dublin City Council and the Office Of Public Works on this proposal.

That relates to its specific positioning on SSG East, not a reason why the station isn't to be located closer to the existing SSG Luas stop, which is what I was replying to.

yascaoimhin · 04-03-2021 10:17pm

Amirani wrote: »

With Dart Underground being shelved, perhaps indefinitely

Sorry what? It's still part of the Strategy and literally, every major party wants it to be expedited. We could even get it before 2035

BonnieSituation · 04-03-2021 11:00pm

donvito99 wrote: »

It would probably be easier and cheaper to scrap the existing SSG Luas stop and bring the line the other way around the Green and back to Harcourt St from Stephen's Green South.

It would be cheaper to build that than to build a cut and cover tunnel in a park?

Nah, it wouldn't.

LXFlyer · 04-03-2021 11:23pm

There is no need to change the LUAS around at all - it will link with Metrolink at Charlemont.

People can easily walk around the Green if necessary as they do for the bus service as it is.

BonnieSituation · 05-03-2021 12:44am

LXFlyer wrote: »

There is no need to change the LUAS around at all - it will link with Metrolink at Charlemont.

People can easily walk around the Green if necessary as they do for the bus service as it is.

Absolutely.

As I have posted on here before, I worked on the mapping for the initial preferred route report. It's a no brainer to have the SSG East Station where it is.

salmocab · 05-03-2021 9:06am

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Absolutely.

As I have posted on here before, I worked on the mapping for the initial preferred route report. It's a no brainer to have the SSG East Station where it is.

I would have thought that the east side is closer to a greater concentration of office anyway, not that it’s a particularly big deal anyway.
I work on hatch street and I take the luas to work from the south side normally so this doesn’t affect me but my pal in work live in NCD so he can drive to the P&R get the metro to charlemont and come back one stop on the luas or walk.

Amirani · 05-03-2021 11:27am

yascaoimhin wrote: »

Sorry what? It's still part of the Strategy and literally, every major party wants it to be expedited. We could even get it before 2035

Shelved means it's not currently happening. Are you suggesting otherwise and that work is actually ongoing?

We all know it's in the strategy. Lots of things have been in lots of strategies and yet have never happened. Until there's actual movement on it, then excuse me for not having the same optimism as you do about getting Dart Underground before 2035.

Sam Russell · 05-03-2021 11:45am

Mod: Dart Underground is off topic for this thread. There are other threads to discuss it in.

Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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