Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

jmlfc · 16-03-2021 9:04am

https://vivarail.co.uk/
Here is an option for a battery powered train which would be eco friendly to run the WRC
Plus much less expensive than laying heavy rail and the other option of electrification.

L1011 · 16-03-2021 9:14am

Those will never be available in Irish gauge - they are an as cheap as possible conversion of 40+ year old tube stock (with a limited supply thereof).

They would require as heavy rail as DMUs

They would not have the range for the full length even one way

eastwest · 16-03-2021 12:58pm

jmlfc wrote: »

https://vivarail.co.uk/
Here is an option for a battery powered train which would be eco friendly to run the WRC
Plus much less expensive than laying heavy rail and the other option of electrification.

Does it hover? ;-)

eastwest · 16-03-2021 2:59pm

I see the rail lobby has made their submission to the Mayo County Development Plan

Sam Russell · 16-03-2021 3:05pm

eastwest wrote: »

I see the rail lobby has made their submission to the Mayo County Development Plan

The writer could get even more nostalgia from a properly constructed greenway. I think children playing next to a live railway is just a no-no in tis day and age.

Trespassing on a railway line is taken very seriously by IR.

Isambard · 16-03-2021 4:30pm

eastwest wrote: »

I see the rail lobby has made their submission to the Mayo County Development Plan

taking the p....mickey...

eastwest · 16-03-2021 4:48pm

Isambard wrote: »

taking the p....mickey...

It has to be.
Good one though.

westtip · 17-03-2021 10:57am

Whilst we talk away in this vacuum, it is worth noting that it looks like well over 600 submissions supporting greenway on the closed railway from Charlestown to Claremorris have been received by Mayo County Council.

People and public bodies have had their say, none more so than Irish Rail who have at long last put it in writing to Mayo County Council what is achievable north of Claremorris. They have mixed their words up a bit on the Velorail project but at last we don’t have to listen to some folk telling us it is “illegal” to have a greenway on this route. Thank you Irish Rail, north of Claremorris is now officially, game over.

8. Greenway Development: Iarnród Éireann notes that the Council aim to support and facilitate the EuroVelo rail project on the Western Rail Corridor as an interim use for the rail line pending its reopening for passenger and rail freight. Iarnród Éireann will continue to provide conditional support for the development of a greenways in locations where the railway does not have a short to medium term viable business case for reintroduction of services. In terms of the Western Rail Corridor, this conditional support is subject to the section north of Claremorris. Greenways help to keep the asset in state ownership and keep the asset utilised, and then if there is a decision at some time in the future that it should go back to railway use, the licensing arrangement is such that it can do so

https://consult.mayo.ie/en/submission/myo-c11-696

Isambard · 17-03-2021 11:10am

westtip wrote: »

Whilst we talk away in this vacuum, it is worth noting that it looks like well over 600 submissions supporting greenway on the closed railway from Charlestown to Claremorris have been received by Mayo County Council.

People and public bodies have had their say, none more so than Irish Rail who have at long last put it in writing to Mayo County Council what is achievable north of Claremorris. They have mixed their words up a bit on the Velorail project but at last we don’t have to listen to some folk telling us it is “illegal” to have a greenway on this route. Thank you Irish Rail, north of Claremorris is now officially, game over.

https://consult.mayo.ie/en/submission/myo-c11-696

my layman interpretation of that is that IE note the Councils Velorail aim and dismisses it in favour of a Greenway

eastwest · 17-03-2021 11:17am

The velorail supporters broke cover this week and showed that they are just the railway lobby in a clown's suit. They are now talking about battery powered carts, and extending the project towards the sligo border.
Oh look! It's a train!

westtip · 17-03-2021 11:19am

Isambard wrote: »

my layman interpretation of that is that IE note the Councils Velorail aim and dismisses it in favour of a Greenway

As they say in the police force "no sh1t sherlock" Indeed and the problem the velorail has is called the N5 the velorail can go no further north of Kiltimagh than it has permission for, total lack of public support in Swinford and Charlestown, not that it has much support in Kiltimagh, They can't get their hands on anymore money for more capex with Ring not in dept of community affairs anymore and MCC will finally see it as a millstone around their neck financially, the project is already a financial embarrassment and concern for MCC.

That's it in a nutshell really!

Isambard · 17-03-2021 12:08pm

westtip wrote: »

As they say in the police force "no sh1t sherlock" Indeed and the problem the velorail has is called the N5 the velorail can go no further north of Kiltimagh than it has permission for, total lack of public support in Swinford and Charlestown, not that it has much support in Kiltimagh, They can't get their hands on anymore money for more capex with Ring not in dept of community affairs anymore and MCC will finally see it as a millstone around their neck financially, the project is already a financial embarrassment and concern for MCC.

That's it in a nutshell really!

when you resort to sarcasm aimed at people with a slightly different point if view, you don't gain much cred in my eyes.

Sam Russell · 17-03-2021 12:09pm

eastwest wrote: »

The velorail supporters broke cover this week and showed that they are just the railway lobby in a clown's suit. They are now talking about battery powered carts, and extending the project towards the sligo border.
Oh look! It's a train!

It is a single track line. How do the Velorail vehicles pass each other? If they do not pass each other, what is the point?

If they are battery powered, they will be heavy. This has not been thought out very well.

17-03-2021 12:13pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

This has not been thought out very well.

The velorail in one sentence

westtip · 17-03-2021 12:50pm

Isambard wrote: »

when you resort to sarcasm aimed at people with a slightly different point if view, you don't gain much cred in my eyes.

Holy moly man I was agreeing with your interpretation, I use that line all the time with folk, it is hardly sarcasm, it is just saying yes you are right in what you say, and yes you are right, Irish Rail are effectively saying stick a greenway down on the route....apologies if I offended you in the way I responded!!

eastwest · 17-03-2021 2:26pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is a single track line. How do the Velorail vehicles pass each other? If they do not pass each other, what is the point?

If they are battery powered, they will be heavy. This has not been thought out very well.

Some hovering definitely part of the plan.

westtip · 17-03-2021 4:27pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is a single track line. How do the Velorail vehicles pass each other? If they do not pass each other, what is the point?

If they are battery powered, they will be heavy. This has not been thought out very well.

SR you gotta understand the velorail was about stop the greenway at all costs. It has completely backfired on Mayo coco, as Irish Rail clearly has a preference for Greenway. There is not much public sentiment that supports Velorail in East Mayo, the sponsors, IRD have wound up so many people in that town, they have split the town in two, and yet they still seem to be able to charm money out of MCC. MCC giving an unconditional support to Velorail in county plan are committing to a project the public don't support and is going to be a drain on resources, finally the money will stop flowing and the VR will fall flat on its face. These crazy off the wall suggestions should be fired in the bin but in truth the way things work with the WOT influence on MCC you just never know....Nothing would surprise me with MCC.

Sam Russell · 17-03-2021 7:03pm

I understand the motive behind Velorail, just not the logic.

By the way, I am not the Sam Mayo are seeking.

eastwest · 17-03-2021 7:35pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I understand the motive behind Velorail, just not the logic.

By the way, I am not the Sam Mayo are seeking.

I think a lot of decisions made in that part of the world are based on 'wouldnt it be great to have a'........ thinking.
Insert 'rail corridor,' 'velorail,' 'link to knock airport,' 'freight train with woo-hoo whistle,' etc.

Sam Russell · 17-03-2021 7:52pm

eastwest wrote: »

I think a lot of decisions made in that part of the world are based on 'wouldnt it be great to have a'........ thinking.
Insert 'rail corridor,' 'velorail,' 'link to knock airport,' 'freight train with woo-hoo whistle,' etc.

'But who is going to feed the Gondolas Velorails?'

Rather than the Velorail vehicles that cannot pass each other, and so are useless on a single track railway. why not use four wheel buggies that can work very well on a greenway?

This has not been thought through.

mayo.mick · 17-03-2021 8:45pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

'But who is going to feed the Gondolas Velorails?'

Rather than the Velorail vehicles that cannot pass each other, and so are useless on a single track railway. why not use four wheel buggies that can work very well on a greenway?

This has not been thought through.

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Sam Russell · 17-03-2021 8:56pm

mayo.mick wrote: »

Yea that is what I had in mind - but perhaps with four wheels and two doing the bit with the pedals.

CrabRevolution · 18-03-2021 12:12am

eastwest wrote: »

I think a lot of decisions made in that part of the world are based on 'wouldnt it be great to have a'........ thinking.
Insert 'rail corridor,' 'velorail,' 'link to knock airport,' 'freight train with woo-hoo whistle,' etc.

What's stranger is that EU/T-ENT funding is sometimes mentioned, under the bizarre impression that EU funding is distributed based on the same "I don't care about business cases and returns on investment, we deserve an X in the west" philosophy common in county councils.

westtip · 18-03-2021 11:50am

CrabRevolution wrote: »

What's stranger is that EU/T-ENT funding is sometimes mentioned, under the bizarre impression that EU funding is distributed based on the same "I don't care about business cases and returns on investment, we deserve an X in the west" philosophy common in county councils.

Exactly CR, The EY reports and Jaspers (in particular this one) have been dismissed because west on track don't like them, but they are sitting there as the definitive reports on this whole debacle, they need to be the point of reference when it comes to the "sure we will get money from Europe" idea....Just to remind those folks who think that is the case, lets just look at what Jaspers said, it is this kind of reality those folks are burying their head in the sand over.

Even as part of the Comprehensive Network, the European added value of the current project would still need to be demonstrated, which would require an elaboration of its strategic role in providing connectivity to nodes of the Core Network. It is noted that the award of grants through CEF is subject to a competitive evaluation, and traditionally there is a significant oversubscription of available funding. As such, the probability of being selected
in a competitive call cannot be considered as high in the absence of such a case.
10.5 In the context of lending from EU Financing Institutions (most notably EIB), the project selection process is subject to technical reviews of the project documentation, examining the financial and economic case, as well as general project need, scope, risks and impacts. It is likely that during such review that the issues noted throughout this note would be highlighted, and would influence the final decision. We consider that that gaining support for
project financing of the proposal in its current form would be a challenge.

eastwest · 18-03-2021 2:36pm

CrabRevolution wrote: »

What's stranger is that EU/T-ENT funding is sometimes mentioned, under the bizarre impression that EU funding is distributed based on the same "I don't care about business cases and returns on investment, we deserve an X in the west" philosophy common in county councils.

There is a view, based on nothing, that politicians can 'get' funding where others cannot. Daft as it seems, it has elected many of them.

Captain Lugger · 20-03-2021 10:54am

eastwest wrote: »

I see the rail lobby has made their submission to the Mayo County Development Plan

Reads like the writer(s) of that well-known FB page, West-on-Crack. A bit like farting in a crowded room and shouting out, “Joe! Ya smelly bastid! I toul ye to ease back on the Guinness”. Everyone then knows who really dealt it...

westtip · 22-03-2021 11:44am

It is going to be interesting to see the response of Mayo coco to the submissions they have received on the county plan this time around, looks like they might hit a thousand submissions demanding a greenway this time around, nearly all of them from the East Mayo Towns that the greenway will link......Let's see their response this time around.

Greaney · 22-03-2021 1:49pm

westtip wrote: »

looks like they might hit a thousand submissions demanding a greenway this time around

Was there an official 'call' for greenway submissions from Mayo County Council?

mayo.mick · 22-03-2021 2:24pm

Greaney wrote: »

Was there an official 'call' for greenway submissions from Mayo County Council?

Mayo Co Co *Official* call for submissions.

#HaveYourSay

https://twitter.com/MayoDotIE/status/1370031821736542210

eastwest · 22-03-2021 2:45pm

westtip wrote: »

looks like they might hit a thousand submissions demanding a greenway this time around.

That's a phenomenal response from the community, I'd almost say 'unprecedented.'
Has any CDP anywhere ever attracted this volume of submissions? Certainly it will be a record number for Mayo, I would say.
Although I doubt the Council will pay any attention. The submissions process is largely seen as a box-ticking exercise in democratic tokenism. They don't mind letting the common people let off steam, but they rarely depart from a pre-agreed agenda when it comes to the CDP. Didn't they completely ignore almost 300 submissions last time around on this topic, and get away with it? They know there's no kind of penalty to pay for doing the same thing again.
If they want change in East Mayo, the best way to get it is through the ballot box, by running their own candidates in a very strategic way.

ShaneC1600 · 22-03-2021 8:52pm

Would the 1000 submissions include the pre printed free postcards which were handed out on the side of the road?

eastwest · 22-03-2021 9:19pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Would the 1000 submissions include the pre printed free postcards which were handed out on the side of the road?

The ones individually signed, stamped and posted by concerned citizens?
Probably.
They also included one from the department of transport that strongly advised mayo county council to utilise the route as a greenway. Among others.

ezstreet5 · 22-03-2021 9:22pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Would the 1000 submissions include the pre printed free postcards which were handed out on the side of the road?

I looked at a lot of the "submissions" and they were just postcards saying, "I want a greenway." But there was no substance or content or anything. Just postcards.

westtip · 22-03-2021 9:53pm

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I looked at a lot of the "submissions" and they were just postcards saying, "I want a greenway." But there was no substance or content or anything. Just postcards.

Scoff as you may the front of the postcard was written with 4 very deliberate points of discussion, which by the way the planners are obliged to consider. There is quite reasoned argument substance and content written on the front of those cards, and People also made short comment on the back. I don't see the words "I want a greenway" on the front of the cards, so when you find them on the front of the cards please do come back to me. Making these submissions is all part of democratic process, people taking the time and effort to take part; take a close look at the submission from the department of transport, go read what it says.

https://consult.mayo.ie/en/submission/myo-c11-1027/observation/dept-transport-submission#attachments

Read it then come back with more precious comments about "submissions", perhaps you should have written to the department asking them to defend the WRC against the evils of a greenway and to make a submission to MCC on the subject, maybe someone wrote to the minister asking him to intervene, oh as if!

eastwest · 22-03-2021 10:05pm

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I looked at a lot of the "submissions" and they were just postcards saying, "I want a greenway." But there was no substance or content or anything. Just postcards.

Yes, just people saying what they wanted to see done with the route. So simplistic.
How dare they! Don't they understand that their elders and betters know better?

22-03-2021 10:07pm

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I looked at a lot of the "submissions" and they were just postcards saying, "I want a greenway." But there was no substance or content or anything. Just postcards.

Why complicate it, people want a greenway, its simple really

ezstreet5 · 22-03-2021 10:15pm

westtip wrote: »

Scoff as you may the front of the postcard was written with 4 very deliberate points of discussion, which by the way the planners are obliged to consider. There is quite reasoned argument substance and content written on the front of those cards, and People also made short comment on the back. I don't see the words "I want a greenway" on the front of the cards, so when you find them on the front of the cards please do come back to me. Making these submissions is all part of democratic process, people taking the time and effort to take part; take a close look at the submission from the department of transport, go read what it says.

https://consult.mayo.ie/en/submission/myo-c11-1027/observation/dept-transport-submission#attachments

Read it then come back with more precious comments.

I am genuinely not scoffing. It's just that with any public participation process, the receivers are acutely aware of duplicative submissions, and group them as such-basically as simplistic 'votes.' I don't doubt our discount the fact that everyone who submitted a postcard honestly believes that the line should be converted to a greenway, based on their own level of knowledge. I would question whether they were goaded to that belief, or whether they fully considered the benefits of a less sexy, but far more utilitarian railway serving their community.

eastwest · 22-03-2021 11:07pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Why complicate it, people want a greenway, its simple really

Sure they only think they do. What would ordinary people know about what they want?
'Them that knows' know better.
And the department, sure what would they know? They only give out the money.
And Irish Rail? Don't get me started.

ShaneC1600 · 22-03-2021 11:19pm

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I looked at a lot of the "submissions" and they were just postcards saying, "I want a greenway." But there was no substance or content or anything. Just postcards.

I was thinking that would be the case. I know they have to consider them but imagine having to review each and every copy and paste submission sent in because one person has the time to put in the effort in and the rest don't even have to pay a stamp.

eastwest · 23-03-2021 10:01am

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I am genuinely not scoffing. It's just that with any public participation process, the receivers are acutely aware of duplicative submissions, and group them as such-basically as simplistic 'votes.' I don't doubt our discount the fact that everyone who submitted a postcard honestly believes that the line should be converted to a greenway, based on their own level of knowledge. I would question whether they were goaded to that belief, or whether they fully considered the benefits of a less sexy, but far more utilitarian railway serving their community.

Most people are well aware that the wrc, particularly North of Claremorris, is not part of any railway plan by anybody except a rapidly dwindling rail lobby. Of course people would like a railway if there was one going, but they understand the reality that it's not going to happen. The rail reports into the southern section just confirmed that view.
The upswelling of local support, in the now visible form of the huge numbers who took the trouble to fill in and post postcards, and the groups and individuals who made online and postal submissions, shows public frustration with the councillors who persist in blocking all other interim options for this public asset. They see all the money going to West Mayo and nothing coming to their towns, and they have firmly, politely and emphatically asked for that to change.
Clearly, given the submissions by both bodies, Irish Rail and DTTAS agree with them. Furthermore, the DTTAS submission clearly marks the cards of Mayo County Council. The imbalance in amenity funding between East and West is noted by the funding department. I'd say they'll ignore that little hint at their peril.

westtip · 23-03-2021 10:50am

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

I was thinking that would be the case. I know they have to consider them but imagine having to review each and every copy and paste submission sent in because one person has the time to put in the effort in and the rest don't even have to pay a stamp.

I think you will find in East Mayo its a team of people making the effort to motivate their fellow citizens to become active not just "one person", I know for a fact that this particular one person has not been to Swinford, KM, Charlestown or Claremorris in the past 3 month, Duhhh.....I wonder why that is. The simple facts are: Irish Rail has no problem with the greenway, The department has no problem with a greenway, nearly 1,000 people in East Mayo have asked for a greenway, even the blady school children are asking for it now. I don't know what more to say. Perhaps the greenway campaign is just better at community grassroots marketing, or perhap no one in East Mayo takes a blind bit of notice of West on Track anymore apart from a few cllrs on the intercounty committee.

westtip · 23-03-2021 11:27am

ezstreet5 wrote: »

group them as such-basically as simplistic 'votes.' .

Votes yep, interesting concept in a democratic process. Nearly a thousand East Mayo votes asking for a greenway and the cllrs can see every person who voted as it is not a secret ballot. This voting idea might catch on.

eastwest · 23-03-2021 11:49am

westtip wrote: »

The department has no problem with a greenway.

It's much more than that. Not only has the Department no problem with a greenway, they have told Mayo County Council in no uncertain terms that they need to re-balance greenway development by investing in the east of the county, and they have specifically pointed out where that investment must be made.
If Mayo wants greenway funding of any kind, they have to target it at the western transport corridor.

westtip · 25-03-2021 10:23am

eastwest wrote: »

It's much more than that. Not only has the Department no problem with a greenway, they have told Mayo County Council in no uncertain terms that they need to re-balance greenway development by investing in the east of the county, and they have specifically pointed out where that investment must be made.
If Mayo wants greenway funding of any kind, they have to target it at the western transport corridor.

Looks like MCC have a lot of re writing to do to accommodate

the "Transport Corridor" rather than solely as a railway line in the goals laid out in the previous paragraph.

Its looking like there could be 1,000 "votes" for a greenway on the county plan, amazing expression of public opinion.

eastwest · 25-03-2021 12:45pm

Given the request by the DTTAS to Mayo County Council to refer to the closed railway route through that county as the 'Western Transport Corridor, maybe we should do the same with the title of this thread?
After all, if the policy-making and funding authority for pretty much any development on this land prefers to recognise the reality that there are more transport options than trains, maybe we should respect that reality?

westtip · 06-04-2021 3:35pm

eastwest wrote: »

Given the request by the DTTAS to Mayo County Council to refer to the closed railway route through that county as the 'Western Transport Corridor, maybe we should do the same with the title of this thread?
After all, if the policy-making and funding authority for pretty much any development on this land prefers to recognise the reality that there are more transport options than trains, maybe we should respect that reality?

Just for the doubters here are the links to those two submissions from Irish Rail and DOT.

Direct link to submission to Mayo county council from Irish Rail which clearly identifies route as potential greenway route.

https://consult.mayo.ie/en/submission/myo-c11-696

Direct link to Department of Transport submission to Mayo County Council in which the DOT redefines the route previously known as the Western Rail Corridor as a “Transport Corridor” rather than solely as a railway line.

https://consult.mayo.ie/en/submission/myo-c11-1027

Who knows MCC might actually listen this time around

MayoForSam · 06-04-2021 7:10pm

Anyone else catch our former great leader Enda on RTE1 last night on 'Iarnrod Enda' (although my EPG had it down as 'Iarnrod Edna'

)?

He was down for a few days travelling along the Waterford-Dungarvan greenway and despite Enda channeling Alan Partridge and displaying the worst lockdown haircut yet (according to the Irish Times), it was quiet enjoyable and harmless enough. It did a nice job of portraying the excellent job they're done down there to promote tourism and also to provide an amenity for locals.

Next week he'll be over in Achill and Westport on the Great Western Greenway (no doubt Mr. Ring will show up at some stage). I somehow doubt Enda will make an appearance in the east of Co. Mayo on the WRC, despite the fact the program is meant to look at not just existing greenways but potential greenways along disused rail lines, but you never know.

It will definitely make people think more about the benefits of greenways though.

eastwest · 07-04-2021 5:59pm

It's a lot of people, no matter how you look at it.

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2021/04/07/1000-submissions-in-support-of-east-mayo-greenway/

Decades · 11-04-2021 9:51am

Heartening to hear West on Track speaking on MWR radio about the Western Transport Corridor over the last few days, highlighting the need for greeways in all the towns along the route and a need for balance in investment between Dublin and the West.

mayo.mick · 11-04-2021 11:16pm

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

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