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Ongoing religious scandals

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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,722 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Could this cretin's speech be deemed as incitement to hatred or even incitement to murder?

    ..or is it the basis for a plot sequel for "Shaun of the dead", "Ted of the dead" maybe?


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,468 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    A fascinating TedEd lesson exploring the bizarre and gruesome history of European and American witch hunts (essentially the victimisation, torture and murder of innocent women by religious zealots) from the 15th to the 18th century.

    Written by Brian A. Pavlak, narrated by Adrian Dannatt and animated by Lisa LaBracio.



    Well, it was yet another religious scandal.....

    Zero evidence and they murdered what are thought by some estimates to be many millions..


    On a related note, 1980's America and to a much less extend Europe was effected by the Satanic Panic. It ruined many people's lives and resulted in in even one couple being jailed for 21 years using false evidence.

    More listening on the subject
    https://www.stuffyoushouldknow.com/podcasts/the-satanic-panic-of-the-1980s.htm

    Back in 1980's Ireland I remember the local priest going on about devil worshipping in the local graveyard and such nonsense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,081 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,131 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Gotta point out that this isn't really a "religious scandal". While there were accusastions of "satanic" abuse, the supposed religious element was part of the accusation and the accusations were, substantially, baseless. The people or instititutions making and acting on the accusations were not necessarily motivated by religion and in many cases were not religious at all. (And in many cases the people against whom the allegations were made were also not religious at all.) To the extent that religion was a factor in this issue at all it was largely ignorance of/fear of/an animus against religion - specifically, against Satanism.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Archbishop of Westminster put church's reputation before children, says abuse inquiry
    https://news.sky.com/story/archbishop-of-westminster-put-churchs-reputation-before-children-says-abuse-inquiry-11745510

    Well there's a shock.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Not much hesitation here though -
    "An Indianapolis Jesuit high school is standing by a teacher who the Archdiocese of Indianapolis said should not be rehired after the employee’s same-sex marriage became public. As a result, the archdiocese will prohibit Brebeuf Jesuit Preparatory School from calling itself “Catholic,” a decision the school plans to appeal."
    https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2019/06/20/indianapolis-archdiocese-catholic-jesuit-refusing-fire-teacher-same-sex-marriage


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,468 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Worth a watch
    Coming Home - When Dublin Honoured The Magdalenes

    https://www.rte.ie/player/movie/coming-home-when-dublin-honoured-the-magdalenes/104039976316


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,081 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2019/0701/1059531-abuse-confession/

    Vatican says laws cannot force priests to break seal of confession

    The Vatican has today reaffirmed Catholic teaching that priests cannot reveal what they learn in confession, in an apparent response to moves in Australia and elsewhere to force them to do so in cases of sexual abuse.

    A document from the Vatican's Apostolic Penitentiary, which deals with issues of the sacrament of confession, said no government or law could force clergy to violate the seal "because this duty comes directly from God".

    The document, which does not mention any countries or the sexual abuse crisis, complained of a "worrying negative prejudice against the Catholic Church".

    Most countries' legal systems respect the religious right of a Catholic priest not to reveal what he has learned in confession, similar to attorney-client privilege.

    But the sexual abuse crisis that has embroiled the Catholic Church around the world has seen this right challenged more frequently.

    In Australia, an inquiry into child abuse recommended that the country introduce a law forcing religious leaders to report child abuse, including priests told of it during confession.

    So far, two of Australia's eight states have introduced laws making it a crime for priests to withhold information about abuse heard in confession. Others are still considering their response.

    In May, the California state senate passed a bill to require the seal of confession to be broken if a priests learns of or suspects sexual abuse while hearing the confession of a fellow priest or a colleague such as a Church worker.

    Church leaders in both the United States and Australia have opposed such laws and the document backed them up unequivocally.

    "Any political action or legislative initiative aimed at breaking the inviolability of the sacramental seal would constitute an unacceptable offence against the (freedom of the Church)," the document said.

    "(The Church) does not receive its legitimacy from individual States, but from God; it (breaking the seal) would also constitute a violation of religious freedom, legally fundamental to all other freedoms, including the freedom of conscience of individual citizens, both penitents and confessors," it said.

    The document said a priest could not demand that a penitent turn himself or herself in to authorities as a condition for receiving absolution from their sins.

    The penitent also cannot free a priest from his obligation to respect the seal of confession, it said.

    ...and these guys regard themselves as the moral guardians of society? :rolleyes:

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭eire4


    https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2019/0701/1059531-abuse-confession/

    Vatican says laws cannot force priests to break seal of confession




    ...and these guys regard themselves as the moral guardians of society? :rolleyes:

    Not a surprise really. They just do not get it at all and or do not care a jot. Take your pick.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    The Irish Mirror yesterday revealed that Gardai believe they’ve uncovered a paedophile ring run by clerics while investigating a hostel for boys which operated in the 1960s and 1970s
    The half-way house – which opened under the name “The Boys Club” in Eccles Street, Dublin 1 – is the subject of an investigation by the Sexual Crime Management Unit.

    More than 700 vulnerable teenage boys passed through the hostel over the space of a decade and it’s feared most were preyed on by clerics….
    …A man who was was born in a mother and baby home and was sent to the hostel from an industrial school where he was raped from a young age.
    He said: “The abuse that took place in the hostel was an extension of the abuse I suffered in the industrial school but it was far more intense and pressurised.”
    He added priests used the home as a “hunting ground” and “passed boys around like pieces of meat” bribing them with cigarettes and money to keep quiet.
    https://www.broadsheet.ie/2019/07/08/the-boys-club/?fbclid=IwAR3dsGK-bXQ9ZQMiKQdwp0llhu0hiGbWpLT1dqSrjr6KNhJSXvlZWmg6nKQ


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Cardinal Pell's appeal against his conviction fails and unless a subsequent appeal succeeds, will be eligible for parole in October 2022. The pope has yet to defrock him, and Australia has not yet stripped him of his "Order of Australia" medal.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-49416573


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,131 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    robindch wrote: »
    Cardinal Pell's appeal against his conviction fails and unless a subsequent appeal succeeds, will be eligible for parole in October 2022. The pope has yet to defrock him, and Australia has not yet stripped him of his "Order of Australia" medal.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-49416573
    Neither the defrocking nor the stripping were ever going to happen while he maintained his innocence and pursued appeals. And he still has the option of appealing to the High Court of Australia, which he is reportedly considering. Until that appeal fails, or it is announced that he will not pursue it, he will remain frocked and medalled.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,976 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Neither the defrocking nor the stripping were ever going to happen while he maintained his innocence and pursued appeals. And he still has the option of appealing to the High Court of Australia, which he is reportedly considering. Until that appeal fails, or it is announced that he will not pursue it, he will remain frocked and medalled.
    Does that mean the RCC is finally admitting that Canon law doesn't beat state law?


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,131 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Well, I don't know about "finally admitting"; when did they claim the contrary?

    But, yeah, I think they are facing up to this in a way they didn't before. They may take some heat for being slow with their own penal processes, but if they moved quickly they would expose themselves to charge that they are seekign to pre-judge, influence, pre-empt, etc the state processes.

    Key issue is whether they will accept that conviction in civil courts establishes conclusively (or as conclusively as these things can ever be established) that the abuse did happen - they will simply accept this as proven, and not run their own investigation reaching a different conclusion.

    Only similar case at this level of the church has been Theodore McCarrick, Archbishop of Washington from 2000 to 2006, when he retired at the usual age of 75. Some years later, allegations about multiple instances of "inappropriate behaviour" with seminarians became public. These mostly related to adult seminarians, but there was at least one allegation of abuse of a boy of 16, and another by a man who said he was abused at age 11. MCarrick was formally removed from priestly ministry and directed to "observe a life of prayer and penance in seclusion", and his resignation from the College of Cardinals was accepted. This all happened very quickly after he was accused of the abuse of minors.

    Differences from Pell: McCarrick never faced criminal charges, so interface between church and state processes didn't really arise. Also, although he denied abusing anyone under age, he hasn't (SFAIK) denied the bulk of the accusations against him, involving abusive (but not criminal) sexual relations with adults.

    Whereas Pell still maintains his innocence. So his case presents the issue of whether the church will accept Pell's guilt on the basis of the civil conviction, or whether it will make its own, independent investigation and finding. Pell stood aside from his Vatican role (as prefect for the Secretariat for the Economy) when he was charged, and I assume that he either stood aside from or was formally suspended from priestly ministry at the same time, since this is standard practice. He resigned from the Council of Cardinals (a 6-member advisory board on the organsation of the Roman Curia) but not from his role as Prefect of the Secretariat. However he had been appointed to that role for a 5-year term; the term expired during his trial and was not renewed.

    The upshot of all this is that (a) Pell has never been disciplined by the church on the basis that he is guilty of anything, but (b) he's not in active ministry and doesn't occupy any office or position from which he can be dismissed. SFAIK the only two things that could be done at this point are (a) "accept his resignation" from the College of Cardinals, and (b) formally "remove him from the clerical state" (which is more permament and more radical than simply suspending him from priestly ministry). Neither of these would mean much in practical terms, given that he is in prison, but their symbolic signficance would be enormous.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Until that appeal fails, or it is announced that he will not pursue it, he will remain frocked and medalled.
    No doubt, his frock heaves happily with the weight of honorary metal. However, he could have considered, voluntarily, turning in his gongs while investigations and court cases were ongoing on the reasonable expectation that they'd be returned if, and when, he'd been declared innocent of the charges laid against him.

    And given the seriousness of the claims, it's hardly an unreasonable course of action, though it's one which does not seem to have occurred to the technically innocent, and by now, no doubt enormously lonely, figure of George Pell.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,131 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    robindch wrote: »
    No doubt, his frock heaves happily with the weight of honorary metal. However, he could have considered, voluntarily, turning in his gongs while investigations and court cases were ongoing on the reasonable expectation that they'd be returned if, and when, he'd been declared innocent of the charges laid against him.

    And given the seriousness of the claims, it's hardly an unreasonable course of action, though it's one which does not seem to have occurred to the technically innocent, and by now, no doubt enormously lonely, figure of George Pell.
    I think handing back your honours would be seen by some as an admission of guilt and I can how, if someone is maintaining his innocence, it is unrealistic and unreasonable to think he will hand back his honours. If you can find an example of somebody who renounced an honour when under suspicion/investigation and then had it re-awarded to him when he was cleared, point it out. I don't think that's how these things work.

    I can think of a lot of criticisms that I could make of George Pell. But, that he failed to resign his Order of Australia when charged with a crime, of which he maintained his innocence? I'll give him a pass on that one.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,976 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    'This is a knife in the heart' - shock at church tribute on anniversary of paedophile priest Brendan Smyth
    The parish priest for a Co Down Catholic Church which recognised the anniversary of paedophile priest Brendan Smyth has said he has no idea how the tribute found its way into a memorial book and pledged it would be removed immediately.
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/this-is-a-knife-in-the-heart-shock-at-church-tribute-on-anniversary-of-paedophile-priest-brendan-smyth-38450387.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,081 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Shur didn't Osama bin Laden get a mass?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Fr Brendan Hoban, writing for the Association of Catholic Priests, takes a sad view of the future of the church in Ireland:

    Summary - https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/unclear-whether-catholic-church-has-future-in-ireland-priest-1.4009287
    Full article - https://www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2019/08/another-beginning/
    [...] the jury is out on whether the Irish Catholic Church has a discernible future, apart from a ceremonial presence on the official sidelines of Irish life or a refuge for those ill at ease with the modern world. Because its presence as such, apart from being a convenient scapegoat for the ills of Irish society, has virtually disappeared in the media, in public debate, in modern Irish writing, in the lives of the young. Once we mattered too much in too many ways, now we’ve moved beyond antipathy into apathy.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,722 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Reading this
    The focus now had to be “on intellectual rigour; on a communicable theology that connects with the lived experience of people; on a robust commitment to a respectful re-imaging of our church;

    and thinking this;

    ef337f010d3450e595993d70a457c9f3.jpg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,081 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The focus now had to be “on intellectual rigour

    *snigger*

    funny, but not a scandal though :)

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,081 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49667769
    The leaders of a California based-church have been accused of imprisoning homeless people, forcing them to beg all day and taking the money.

    Dozens of victims had their papers taken, their welfare benefits stolen and were punished if they spoke of "things of the world", officials say.

    Imperial Valley Ministries (IVM) operates about 30 affiliate church groups in the US and Mexico.

    A dozen of the group's leaders were arrested on Tuesday.

    The former pastor of Imperial Valley Ministries, Victor Gonzalez, was detained in San Diego.

    Eleven others were held in El Centro, California, and Brownsville, Texas.

    The defendants are facing charges of conspiracy, forced labour, document servitude and benefits fraud.

    The church, which represents its pastors as "missionaries to drug addicts", lured victims by promising them food and shelter and opportunities to get back on their feet at "no cost", federal officials say.

    "The indictment alleges an appalling abuse of power by church officials who preyed on vulnerable homeless people with promises of a warm bed and meals," the lead prosecutor, US Attorney Robert Brewer, said at a news conference after the arrests.

    "These victims were held captive, stripped of their humble financial means, their identification, their freedom and their dignity."

    A statement from the prosecutor added that "windows were nailed shut at some group home locations, leading a desperate 17-year-old victim to break a window, escape, and run to a neighbouring property to call police".

    Victims were allegedly locked in group homes, and forced to beg for nine hours a day, six days a week.

    According to prosecutors, victims were told "the only thing to be read is the holy bible" and "if any of the rules are broken there will be discipline".

    Punishments included the withholding of food, and if they asked to leave they were told their children would be taken away, it is alleged.

    Church leaders refused to allow a diabetic victim with low blood sugar to obtain medicine, said officials. She was able to escape.

    They were also banned from using the telephone, and told to avoid their family because "only God" loved them now, said officials.

    If they did manage to leave, church leaders continued to withhold their money, along with important documents such as immigration paperwork and food benefit cards.

    All of the victims have been identified and are now free, officials say.

    Support services have been made available to them.

    The case highlights the chronic problem of homelessness in California.

    President Donald Trump has reportedly ordered White House officials to launch an initiative to address the issue, though California leaders are sceptical.

    White House officials earlier this week toured districts of Los Angeles and blamed "liberal policies" for the city's high numbers of destitute people.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Can't remember this coming up.


    Sean Ross Abbey in Roscrea Co Tipperary was a Mother & Baby Home, and one of the largest of these institutions in the state.The home was run by the nuns from the Sisters of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary from 1930 until 1970. Thousands of unmarried pregnant women passed through their doors and official figures show that 5,252 babies were born there. In 2011, the order of nuns handed over all their records to the HSE and subsequently Tusla. In these records only one death register exists. It shows the names of 269 babies who died there. However as this RTÉ Investigates reveals the true figure was in fact multiples of this; at least 1000 babies are registered as dying in Sean Ross Abbey. Rita O Reilly reports


    https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2019/0424/1045347-rte-investigates-sean-ross-1000-dead/


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Odhinn wrote: »

    Show me a 'mother and baby' home and I'll show you a cover up.

    At this point they should just fund a few history post-grads to go through the records of every one of them (cheaper than lawyers and even more ocd pedantic) and present their findings.
    Then we will have a written body of work with all the references noted and documents itemised and can take it from there.

    Of course access to the records might be an issue - especially when certain people are insisting they be sealed - but tbh most historians are used to that and are well used to thinking outside the box (or locked away file) when it comes to tracking down primary sources.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,131 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I haven't watched the programme. But if the 1,000 babies "are registered as dying in Sean Ross Abbey", in what sense has their been a cover-up?

    From the summary, it seems that the "nuns' own records", when handed over, included only one death register, which listed only 269 deaths. But this could simply reflect, e.g, the fact that the nuns only kept their own death register for a part of the total period of operation, or possibly that not all of the records made since 1930 time survived until 2011, which wouldn't be astonishing, given that the operation had closed more than 40 years previously. As long as all the deaths were reported to the Registrar-General and recorded on the public register of deaths when they should have been, calling this a "cover up' looks like a bit of a stretch.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I haven't watched the programme. But if the 1,000 babies "are registered as dying in Sean Ross Abbey", in what sense has their been a cover-up?

    From the summary, it seems that the "nuns' own records", when handed over, included only one death register, which listed only 269 deaths. But this could simply reflect, e.g, the fact that the nuns only kept their own death register for a part of the total period of operation, or possibly that not all of the records made since 1930 time survived until 2011, which wouldn't be astonishing, given that the operation had closed more than 40 years previously. As long as all the deaths were reported to the Registrar-General and recorded on the public register of deaths when they should have been, calling this a "cover up' looks like a bit of a stretch.

    A cover up in general terms rather than in this specific instance.

    For example - it should be investigated why, as you suggest, the nuns only recorded some of the deaths in their own records. The nuns were paid per child. Were they claiming for children who were in fact dead by fudging their records?
    If they were then was that not an internal 'cover-up' in order to commit fraud?
    Were they falsifying the records they were sending to the Dept?

    A cross check of death register with the nuns records plus funding per child records would soon shed light on that.

    If the nuns records says they had 100 children and 1 death recorded in 19**.
    They received funding for 100 children, but the death register lists 10 children as having died then that looks decidedly dodgy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,131 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I think it bears investigation, but if the nuns - as seems to have been the case - were registering the deaths with the registrar general, a policy of continuing to claim from the Dept of Health as if the children were still living would look, um, dangerous. You'd be creating irrefutable public evidence of your own fraud; morality aside, why would you do that?

    Also, the nuns' records seem to have been private; the public authorities never saw them until they were handed over in 2011. If so, there's no way those records were falsified as part of a scheme to defraud the Dept of Health; the records couldn't have misled the Dept of Health if the Dept of Health didn't see them.

    There are parsimonious explanation for this - the nuns didn't start keeping their own death register until some time after 1930; or they stopped doing so some time before 1970; or not all of the registers they did keep survived to 2011; or two or more of these things could be true. I'm not saying these are the true explanations, but they are fairly obvious possibilities, and we can't really talk about frauds and cover ups until we rule them out.

    I think there are certainly further questions we could ask - e.g. were the nuns under any public legal obligation, or contractual obligation with the Dept of Health, to keep their own death registers? If they were, and they failed to do so, that would certainly give more grounds for suspicion.

    And of course all of this ignores the huge and obvious question; of 5,200 babies born at Sean Ross Abbey, more than 1,000 died in infancy. What the fûck was going on to cause that kind of death rate? This isn't a question about a cover-up, but about basic standards of health and safety.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I think it bears investigation, but if the nuns - as seems to have been the case - were registering the deaths with the registrar general, a policy of continuing to claim from the Dept of Health as if the children were still living would look, um, dangerous. You'd be creating irrefutable public evidence of your own fraud; morality aside, why would you do that?

    Also, the nuns' records seem to have been private; the public authorities never saw them until they were handed over in 2011. If so, there's no way those records were falsified as part of a scheme to defraud the Dept of Health; the records couldn't have misled the Dept of Health if the Dept of Health didn't see them.

    There are parsimonious explanation for this - the nuns didn't start keeping their own death register until some time after 1930; or they stopped doing so some time before 1970; or not all of the registers they did keep survived to 2011; or two or more of these things could be true. I'm not saying these are the true explanations, but they are fairly obvious possibilities, and we can't really talk about frauds and cover ups until we rule them out.

    I think there are certainly further questions we could ask - e.g. were the nuns under any public legal obligation, or contractual obligation with the Dept of Health, to keep their own death registers? If they were, and they failed to do so, that would certainly give more grounds for suspicion.

    And of course all of this ignores the huge and obvious question; of 5,200 babies born at Sean Ross Abbey, more than 1,000 died in infancy. What the fûck was going on to cause that kind of death rate? This isn't a question about a cover-up, but about basic standards of health and safety.

    Tbh - my cover up comment was more of a throwaway remark with a general dodgy things occured here undertone.

    Everything about the whole running of these homes needs to be investigated.
    Questions like - how did they keep the Dept informed as to how many children they had? Was it a 'roll book'? Were the names of dead children on that roll book?How much funding did they recieve? What was their expenditure on food? etc etc.

    The reason I suggested historians rather than lawyers is because a) it's cheaper, b) would meet with less resistance as it doesn't have that 'it's the law' attachment to it, c) historians would not be bound by legal terms of reference and freer to follow the evidence, d) there is precedence for historians to be granted access to sealed records (even the Vatican! I was allowed a poke around the records in the Tower of London which are normally sealed), e) a properly written 'thesis' would contain minute details of documents, references, sources etc which would provide the 'breadcrumbs' for any later potential criminal investigation (not that that is likely to happen...)


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,081 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    And of course all of this ignores the huge and obvious question; of 5,200 babies born at Sean Ross Abbey, more than 1,000 died in infancy. What the fûck was going on to cause that kind of death rate? This isn't a question about a cover-up, but about basic standards of health and safety.

    Watch the video, especially near the end where the male survivor talks about how once the Adoption Act came in, babies became valuable commodities

    The death rate instantly plummeted

    That's assuming of course that these deaths were all real deaths - some may have been covering up illegal adoptions outside the state - we simply don't know.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,081 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    On a different note, a NI bus firm well known for employing people of a certain religious persuasion has gone into administration with the loss of 1200 jobs.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-49818156

    It was a major donor to a controversial project in Ballymena called "Green Pastures"

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-49824525
    Wrightbus is facing questions over £15m in donations to a religious charity.

    A large number of the company's employees have been made redundant after it was placed into administration.

    The Green Pastures charity, which is led by Wrightbus's majority shareholder Jeff Wright, received the money over six years.

    The donations helped it to develop plans for a huge church and village complex known as Project Gateway.

    Speaking on BBC News NI's Good Morning Ulster programme, Sinn F MLA Conor Murphy said that questions have been raised about the donations.

    "I note there are questions that have been raised about the finances of the firm and where they were spent and I think all these things need to come out in the wash," he said.

    But DUP MP Ian Paisley said that how directors spend their dividends is a private issue.

    "It's up for directors to explain how they spend their dividend," he said.

    "Ultimately for the directors, they will have to consider why and how they did those things but no doubt all of those things will be considered."

    Alastair Hamilton, chief executive of the government-backed job creation agency Invest NI, would not comment on the funds that the company drew out.

    In 2013, Invest NI gave £3.9m in backing for Wrightbus's major £15m research and development project into low-carbon vehicles.

    "On every company whenever we put grant assistance in, we put restrictions on the volume or value of drawings that can be made out of that company," he said.

    "Clearly, we can't say to a company that we can't give you grant assistance you can take nothing out by way of dividend.

    He said that the rules Invest NI put in place in its letter of offer for investment were followed.

    The top company in the Wright business, the Cornerstone Group, showed the firm made a loss of £1.7m in 2017.

    That compared to a pre-tax profit of almost £11m in 2016.

    In 2017, the Cornerstone Group gave £4.15m in charitable donations, according to latest accounts.

    However at the time it made earlier donations, the company was making substantial profits.

    The donations were always reported in the group's audited accounts.

    BBC News NI economics editor John Campbell said that "if a firm has distributable profits it can pay out, shareholders can spend that money on whatever they like".

    He added that "in retrospect it looks like a bad decision" given the cash flow needed to run a big manufacturing firm, but he added that any analysis of why the company has struggled cannot ignore "the lamentable state of the UK bus market".

    He added that an administrator has a statutory duty to report on the events leading up to administration and the conduct of directors.

    "If they find evidence of breaches of the Companies Act they report that to the Department of the Economy."

    A major redevelopment project centred around Green Pastures was approved by councillors in 2015.

    The plan was to build an urban village on the edge of Ballymena, with housing, business parks, a hotel and community facilities.

    Green Pastures said the development would create 100 apprenticeships, 80 safe houses for vulnerable adults and 104 care places for children with special needs.

    However, work at the Project Gateway site appeared to have stalled in recent months.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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