College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

CatInABox · 07-06-2019 9:59am

Zipppy wrote: »

How would we solve this?
Beside building the badly needed extensive Metro?

Reducing the priority we give to cars would be a great start. When the bus gate at College Green opened, less traffic went through, but more people used it. It's a great example of the principle of Reduced Demand. The College Green Plaza done right, could reduce car usage, and boost public transport usage at the same time.

KD345 · 07-06-2019 10:40am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

For the first time in a long time I was on Dame Street about 5.30pm today.

OMG it was just mayhem. No room for pedestrians on the footpaths AT ALL, some had to dip onto the street. Dangerous... So many bus stops with the queues that impede on foot traffic. Maybe I lead a sheltered life, but I was honestly gobsmacked at the amount of car/bus/ped traffic there. Totally choking the place really.

I would wonder if the City Councillors ever have a wander around at all.

The problem is if you were to pedestrianise College Green you don’t solve that problem, you simply move it onto the quays, which are already equally as busy. Aston Quay, Bachelors Walk and Wellington Quay can be awful for pedestrians, and adding a lot of high frequency bus routes into the mix would be a disaster in my opinion. Every bus through College Green at peak time is carrying about 90 passengers. They’re not the problem here. Imagine how much better it would be if they had priority and faster boarding times. If you base it on road space per vehicle, it’s the taxis and private motorists which are the problem. Last week, I watched a taxi block a yellow box which prevented a tram pass a junction, which in turn, held up 7 full buses. That’s 600 bus passengers and over 300 tram passengers delayed because of one taxi.

There needs to be better traffic management between O’Connell Bridge and Dame Street with priority given to buses and trams. There is no enforcement of the yellow boxes and I’m seeing more and more private motorists are using the area daily.

Zipppy · 07-06-2019 10:59am

CatInABox wrote: »

Reducing the priority we give to cars would be a great start. When the bus gate at College Green opened, less traffic went through, but more people used it. It's a great example of the principle of Reduced Demand. The College Green Plaza done right, could reduce car usage, and boost public transport usage at the same time.

but this wouldn't solve the thousands of pedestrians, spilling onto the road whilst waiting for hundreds of buses.
There's no cars in college green during the day anyhow so they are not clogging up the area..too many buses..build a metro...
Or maybe just pedestrianise the core city centre...no cars buses trams or cyclists..it would be lovely and calm then.

cgcsb · 07-06-2019 11:02am

KD345 wrote: »

The problem is if you were to pedestrianise College Green you don’t solve that problem, you simply move it onto the quays, which are already equally as busy. Aston Quay, Bachelors Walk and Wellington Quay can be awful for pedestrians, and adding a lot of high frequency bus routes into the mix would be a disaster in my opinion. Every bus through College Green at peak time is carrying about 90 passengers. They’re not the problem here. Imagine how much better it would be if they had priority and faster boarding times. If you base it on road space per vehicle, it’s the taxis and private motorists which are the problem. Last week, I watched a taxi block a yellow box which prevented a tram pass a junction, which in turn, held up 7 full buses. That’s 600 bus passengers and over 300 tram passengers delayed because of one taxi.

There needs to be better traffic management between O’Connell Bridge and Dame Street with priority given to buses and trams. There is no enforcement of the yellow boxes and I’m seeing more and more private motorists are using the area daily.

A car ban on Bachelors walk was needed 2 years ago. But DCC wilted like a house flower.

They seem to be bringing in such a can by stealth though. With Liffey street being pedestrianised and Inns quay will be down to one lane for cars, with all parking removed. I agree these changes are far to slow, needed to be finished 3 years ago at least.

Qrt · 07-06-2019 11:11am

KD345 wrote: »

There needs to be better traffic management between O’Connell Bridge and Dame Street with priority given to buses and trams. There is no enforcement of the yellow boxes and I’m seeing more and more private motorists are using the area daily.

I’d actually argue that we need traffic wardens directing traffic in the city centre. The lights being automatic and not-human, they just get ignored, and can’t adapt to the situations around them. Pyongyang comes to mind (a city with a beautiful metro system).

wakka12 · 07-06-2019 11:25am

CatInABox wrote: »

Reducing the priority we give to cars would be a great start. When the bus gate at College Green opened, less traffic went through, but more people used it. It's a great example of the principle of Reduced Demand. The College Green Plaza done right, could reduce car usage, and boost public transport usage at the same time.

I feel as though Dublin is nearly at peak public transport usage though.The infrastructure simply needs to improve to accomodate more people now. I dont know many people who would willingly drive into the city centre, if theyve the luas, dart or bus as viable altneratives where they live

It really does depress me walking through college green though. It has so much potential to feel like the true heart of Dublin and do so much for the civic life of the entire city but its just completely wasted and destroyed by cars, its a thoroughly unpleasant place to walk through, same story with the quays. Its a pity Dublin has been so badly planned throughout almost its entire history

loyatemu · 07-06-2019 11:29am

wakka12 wrote: »

I feel as though Dublin is nearly at peak public transport usage though.The infrastructure simply needs to improve to accomodate more people now. I dont know many people who would willingly drive into the city centre, if theyve the luas, dart or bus as viable altneratives where they live

It really does depress me walking through college green though. It has so much potential to feel like the true heart of Dublin and do so much for the civic life of the entire city but its just completely wasted and destroyed by cars, its a thoroughly unpleasant place to walk through

I know plenty of people who drive into the city when they could get the Dart or bus. Why, because they can, because the Dart doesn't stop outside their front door and outside the door of their office, and they have free parking and it costs them nothing extra to drive into the city, take up road space and spew out diesel fumes.

cgcsb · 07-06-2019 11:32am

Qrt wrote: »

Pyongyang comes to mind (a city with a beautiful metro system).

:pac:

cgcsb · 07-06-2019 11:35am

wakka12 wrote: »

I dont know many people who would willingly drive into the city centre, if theyve the luas, dart or bus as viable altneratives where they live

Basically if you have free workplace parking, modelling shows that you'll drive, because public transport will cost more and often will be slower with current infrastructure.

Eric Cartman · 07-06-2019 7:38pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You think that what we need is people being able to drive up and down Grafton St?

What problem does that solve?

Makes deliveries easier, easier to get taxis, shortens journeys, if you could go from college green straight up to the stephens green carpark / drury street at night it would help a lot. Not talking 2pm on a saturday , but 1am on a saturday yes

cgcsb · 08-06-2019 10:34am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Makes deliveries easier

I'm honestly curious how you think the shops get deliveries now

Eric Cartman · 08-06-2019 11:36am

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm honestly curious how you think the shops get deliveries now

An awkward process of trying to get there super early in the morning or using the 2 available loading bays on one of the side streets and carting your wares down the street hundreds of meters past the homeless drug addicts. Some units have rear accessoble yards but not most.

Duckjob · 08-06-2019 12:03pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

An awkward process of trying to get there super early in the morning or using the 2 available loading bays on one of the side streets and carting your wares down the street hundreds of meters past the homeless drug addicts. Some units have rear accessoble yards but not most.

So there's 2 options there to pick from

IE 222 · 08-06-2019 12:03pm

What is the obsession with creating the plaza at College Green. Surely O'Connell street would offer more benefit and buses ect can easily be rerouted around it.

L1011 · 08-06-2019 1:01pm

O Connell Street has a Luas running down the entire length of it, in the middle too.

College Green is the only suitable space

Muahahaha · 08-06-2019 1:11pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

For the first time in a long time I was on Dame Street about 5.30pm today.

OMG it was just mayhem. No room for pedestrians on the footpaths AT ALL, some had to dip onto the street. Dangerous... So many bus stops with the queues that impede on foot traffic. Maybe I lead a sheltered life, but I was honestly gobsmacked at the amount of car/bus/ped traffic there. Totally choking the place really.

I would wonder if the City Councillors ever have a wander around at all.

Its been that way during peak tourist season for a good few years now. Just so many tourists walking around slowly on narrow footpaths, there is literally no more space for people.

p_haugh · 08-06-2019 1:17pm

L1011 wrote: »

O Connell Street has a Luas running down the entire length of it, in the middle too.

College Green is the only suitable space

College Green also has a luas going through it, and so will Dame Street if the luas line to Lucan comes to fruition.

MJohnston · 08-06-2019 1:21pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

An awkward process of trying to get there super early in the morning or using the 2 available loading bays on one of the side streets and carting your wares down the street hundreds of meters past the homeless drug addicts. Some units have rear accessoble yards but not most.

Except, take a walk up Grafton Street any weekday at 10am and you'll find two lines of delivery vans parked the whole length of it. They're already doing exactly what you're clamouring for (much to the detriment of the street, it has to be said).

Muahahaha · 08-06-2019 1:27pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Makes deliveries easier, easier to get taxis, shortens journeys, if you could go from college green straight up to the stephens green carpark / drury street at night it would help a lot. Not talking 2pm on a saturday , but 1am on a saturday yes

Grafton St is pretty packed at 1am on a Saturday, its a main route for people to walk to the nightclubs of Harcourt St. Even at 3 or 4am there is still a lot of pedestrians on it.

IE 222 · 08-06-2019 1:43pm

L1011 wrote: »

O Connell Street has a Luas running down the entire length of it, in the middle too.

College Green is the only suitable space

So to does College Green. A luas line running along it length rather than across 2 of 3 points of entry is a much better alternative in my view. College Green will remain flanked by bus routes and terminus at all points of entry and still have a large volume of cyclists travelling through it.

College Green is a relatively small space to gain for all the issues it's going to create. I can't see it been able to host any major gatherings or events in the area either. There is very little in the area to attract footfall from elsewhere as well. O'Connell street at least has numerous amounts of retail footfall and tourists/hotels.

It has nothing of significant to offer from a historical point of view other than trinity college where as O'Connell street has the GPO which we supposedly treasure and numerous monuments and statues along with a plentiful supply of food outlets and retail options.

cgcsb · 08-06-2019 7:05pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

An awkward process of trying to get there super early in the morning or using the 2 available loading bays on one of the side streets and carting your wares down the street hundreds of meters past the homeless drug addicts. Some units have rear accessoble yards but not most.

In ancipation of your answer I 100% thought, 'ok well there's no way he's gonna mention junkies in this post' but then boom, there it was.

Qrt · 08-06-2019 7:23pm

The southbound carriageway of O’Connell Street could be pedestrianised, with the northbound carriageway’s two lanes changed to opposing Bus Lanes. Introduce some bike lanes and you’d have a nice street*

*best wait until the Metro and proposed redevelopments happen tho.

cgcsb · 08-06-2019 8:02pm

Qrt wrote: »

The southbound carriageway of O’Connell Street could be pedestrianised, with the northbound carriageway’s two lanes changed to opposing Bus Lanes. Introduce some bike lanes and you’d have a nice street*

*best wait until the Metro and proposed redevelopments happen tho.

I like this but would plough on with college green and bus connects first rather than overcomplicating them at this stage.

Metro won't have an impact really because the station box is to be on the Carlton site

Zebra3 · 09-06-2019 8:05am

Muahahaha wrote: »

Grafton St is pretty packed at 1am on a Saturday, its a main route for people to walk to the nightclubs of Harcourt St. Even at 3 or 4am there is still a lot of pedestrians on it.

You need to put on your 1970s goggles.

If we reopen Grafton Street to cars we can accommodate a small number of people at the expense of a much larger number of people and add more pollution in to the city air.

Duckjob · 09-06-2019 9:13am

Zebra3 wrote: »

You need to put on your 1970s goggles.

If we reopen Grafton Street to cars we can accommodate a small number of people at the expense of a much larger number of people and add more pollution in to the city air.

The really ironic thing about it is that if we were mad enough to actually do this, it wouldn't even accommodate that small number of people. The street would immediately fill up permanently with cars, bottleneck at the top, and car drivers would be left sitting in their own fumes complaining about the traffic and how they could get out and walk quicker. Yay, let's do that :pac:

MJohnston · 09-06-2019 10:55am

Where would they be going anyway? Can't go south on SSG, and east on SSG just brings you to the exact same place that Kildare Street would. I mean, this is clearly just trolling, right?

Muahahaha · 09-06-2019 12:01pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

You need to put on your 1970s goggles.

If we reopen Grafton Street to cars we can accommodate a small number of people at the expense of a much larger number of people and add more pollution in to the city air.

Agree completely. In fact we should make Grafton Street into a 24 hour HGV only lane. And just to make things fair pedestrians can have access to it on Christmas Day and Good Fridays.

Zebra3 · 09-06-2019 7:05pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Agree completely. In fact we should make Grafton Street into a 24 hour HGV only lane. And just to make things fair pedestrians can have access to it on Christmas Day and Good Fridays.

Might tweet that to the moronic DCC cllr that RTÉ love having on “for balance”.

MJohnston · 09-06-2019 7:16pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Might tweet that to the moronic DCC cllr that RTÉ love having on “for balance”.

You're going to have to narrow it down

leshamry · 24-06-2019 9:32am

MJohnston wrote: »

You're going to have to narrow it down

Well we all know which website to find the real designs

*hint* *hint* :P

cgcsb · 24-06-2019 9:38am

The trial dates are out, last 2 Sundays of July and first Sunday of August.

The pace of progress in Dublin/Ireland, remains infuriating.

leshamry · 28-06-2019 9:45am

cgcsb wrote: »

The trial dates are out, last 2 Sundays of July and first Sunday of August.

The pace of progress in Dublin/Ireland, remains infuriating.

on the heavy drink...

https://i.imgur.com/4Yd5f8F.jpg

Qrt · 28-06-2019 11:54am

I assume buses will be going through College Green..? Or not?

MJohnston · 28-06-2019 12:12pm

Might just be north-south, as the plaza plan intends.

If they're able to use the whole thing, then there's not much point in these Sunday closures, as it would demonstrate nothing.

cgcsb · 28-06-2019 12:15pm

Qrt wrote: »

I assume buses will be going through College Green..? Or not?

No, that's the whole point, it's pedestrianisation.

Qrt · 28-06-2019 2:04pm

cgcsb wrote: »

No, that's the whole point, it's pedestrianisation.

...I thought that, but I’ve heard nothing from DB about it? I guess they’ll usually do a week’s notice but still. Any idea where the buses are going?

cgcsb · 28-06-2019 4:32pm

Qrt wrote: »

...I thought that, but I’ve heard nothing from DB about it? I guess they’ll usually do a week’s notice but still. Any idea where the buses are going?

Northbound buses coming up George's st will turn left onto Dame St and continue onto Winetavern st, where they'll continue on the north quays.

Southbound buses will cross O'Connell Bridge and go: D'Olier St, College St., Westmoreland St., Aston Quay, Turn left onto Parliament St., left again onto Dame St. and right onto George's Street

Qrt · 28-06-2019 5:40pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Northbound buses coming up George's st will turn left onto Dame St and continue onto Winetavern st, where they'll continue on the north quays.

Southbound buses will cross O'Connell Bridge and go: D'Olier St, College St., Westmoreland St., Aston Quay, Turn left onto Parliament St., left again onto Dame St. and right onto George's Street

I didn’t know double deckers could deal with Christchurch arch, thanks. I take it buses coming from Cork Street/James Street will use winetavern street too?

is_that_so · 28-06-2019 5:43pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Northbound buses coming up George's st will turn left onto Dame St and continue onto Winetavern st, where they'll continue on the north quays.

Southbound buses will cross O'Connell Bridge and go: D'Olier St, College St., Westmoreland St., Aston Quay, Turn left onto Parliament St., left again onto Dame St. and right onto George's Street

Wasn't the rejection of the original plan the question of 600 buses a day (both ways) on Parliament Street?

Spanish Eyes · 28-06-2019 5:46pm

I am glad they are at least giving it a go. But Sundays are no reflection on weekday rush hours either, for diversion of buses full time I mean.

But hope it goes well anyway, will be great to get a little bit of the city back from traffic.

is_that_so · 28-06-2019 5:47pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I am glad they are at least giving it a go. But Sundays are no reflection on weekday rush hours either, for diversion of buses full time I mean.

But hope it goes well anyway, will be great to get a little bit of the city back from traffic.

Just as long as you can get into the city using some of that traffic.

alentejo · 28-06-2019 7:21pm

I thought it was illegal to turn left from the quays on to parliament street

Spanish Eyes · 28-06-2019 7:27pm

alentejo wrote: »

I thought it was illegal to turn left from the quays on to parliament street

It is. But that's easily changed for bus only.

Spanish Eyes · 28-06-2019 7:31pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Just as long as you can get into the city using some of that traffic.

I doubt it will be a problem, even long term. Has to be tried, and then sort out the glitches. In fairness it isn't far from North Quays or Dame/Georges Street to the Plaza is it?

The one concern I do have is the choc a bloc nature of buses pulling into Bachelor's Walk, the long distance buses and people unloading their luggage, the skinny pavement there near the chapel. It is a bit crowded alright.

But there is nothing to prevent DB from having some West to East bound buses from stopping near the Winding Stair, that stretch. I thought it was mooted some time back, but I don't think anything happened. It's a no brainer. Spread out the stops.

StreetLight · 28-06-2019 8:50pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Southbound buses will cross O'Connell Bridge and go: D'Olier St, College St., Westmoreland St., Aston Quay, Turn left onto Parliament St., left again onto Dame St. and right onto George's Street

Such a turn is not currently possible for any traffic, legally. The sequencing will have to be changed.

Spanish Eyes · 28-06-2019 8:52pm

StreetLight wrote: »

Such a turn is not currently possible for any traffic, legally. The sequencing will have to be changed.

Easily done. DCC Traffic Management or something can do it. If they wish.

But maybe taking traffic up Nicholas Street/Patrick Street (as an experiment) would be worth trying.

is_that_so · 29-06-2019 4:40pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I doubt it will be a problem, even long term. Has to be tried, and then sort out the glitches. In fairness it isn't far from North Quays or Dame/Georges Street to the Plaza is it?

The one concern I do have is the choc a bloc nature of buses pulling into Bachelor's Walk, the long distance buses and people unloading their luggage, the skinny pavement there near the chapel. It is a bit crowded alright.

But there is nothing to prevent DB from having some West to East bound buses from stopping near the Winding Stair, that stretch. I thought it was mooted some time back, but I don't think anything happened. It's a no brainer. Spread out the stops.

I'm actually glad it's DB/TFI testing this and not DCC. Had they considered the "glitches" in the first place the vision would have had more hope of being passed. That said there's nothing going on here that could not have been modelled on computer.

Peregrine · 29-06-2019 5:07pm

is_that_so wrote: »

I'm actually glad it's DB/TFI testing this and not DCC. Had they considered the "glitches" in the first place the vision would have had more hope of being passed. That said there's nothing going on here that could not have been modelled on computer.

Neither Dublin Bus nor TFI has statutory powers to introduce traffic restrictions.

CatInABox · 29-06-2019 10:20pm

is_that_so wrote: »

I'm actually glad it's DB/TFI testing this and not DCC. Had they considered the "glitches" in the first place the vision would have had more hope of being passed. That said there's nothing going on here that could not have been modelled on computer.

They actually conducted modelling, based on average times on multiple trips at different times on multiple days. Hilariously, ABP walked out and conducted one trip, compared that one trip to the average, and said that the modelling was insufficient because it didn't match the single trip they did.

prinzeugen · 30-06-2019 2:47am

CatInABox wrote: »

They actually conducted modelling, based on average times on multiple trips at different times on multiple days. Hilariously, ABP walked out and conducted one trip, compared that one trip to the average, and said that the modelling was insufficient because it didn't match the single trip they did.

The problem with computer modelling is that it does not work. I have said this here many times.

A computer, AI or whatever, cannot predict human behaviour. Its why we binned it! Bollox!

College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

Comments