Tradesmen and cash jobs

Cyrus · 05-06-2020 9:53am #1

Someone educate me,

a tradesman gives you a price for a job, say 500 euro but says i can do it for cash for 450.

What am i missing, he doesnt need to charge vat, 13.5%, gets him to 440 (450 close enough fine), but nor is he paying any corporation tax or paye.

the savings should be a lot more than him knocking some of the vat off surely?

the beer revolu · 05-06-2020 9:58am

Pay the €500 get a proper receipt, feel like a contributing citizen and feel good about yourself.

Iodine1 · 05-06-2020 10:02am

Cash job, no receipt, no insurance and no comeback. €50 saved could be the most expensive €50 you ever saved.

Padre_Pio · 05-06-2020 10:03am

Cyrus wrote: »

Someone educate me,

a tradesman gives you a price for a job, say 500 euro but says i can do it for cash for 450.

What am i missing, he doesnt need to charge vat, 13.5%, gets him to 440 (450 close enough fine), but nor is he paying any corporation tax or paye.

the savings should be a lot more than him knocking some of the vat off surely?

It should. You save a little money, he makes more money.
You have no comeback should anything go wrong, and usually he's likely a cowboy if he's offering cash jobs in the first place.

Idbatterim · 05-06-2020 10:05am

Ok, you can pay cash and it goes into the workers pocket or you can do it through the books and fifty percent of it gets to be wasted by government , assuming worker earns over marginal rate ...

Who do you your money going too? The rich or poor?

MarkY91 · 05-06-2020 10:08am

Idbatterim wrote: »

Ok, you can pay cash and it goes into the workers pocket or you can do it through the books and fifty percent of it gets to be wasted by government , assuming worker earns over marginal rate ...

Who do you your money going too? The rich or poor?

Don't you mean the economy or the dodgy tradesman?

KaneToad · 05-06-2020 10:09am

Idbatterim wrote: »

Ok, you can pay cash and it goes into the workers pocket or you can do it through the books and fifty percent of it gets to be wasted by government , assuming worker earns over marginal rate ...

Who do you your money going too? The rich or poor?

Over the marginal rate is considered poor?

ExMachina1000 · 05-06-2020 10:10am

That 500 euro job should be 380 cash.

That's what I would charge. I presume its labour only no parts to be purchased

mickdw · 05-06-2020 10:11am

Some tradesmen will not be vat registered while still being legit. In that case, 450 cash would be a reasonable deduction.
A vat registered person should be knocking off vat plus for a cash job.
Its ok to knock tradesmen and call them all cowboys but customer is equally to blame as trades are continually asked for cash prices.

Cyrus · 05-06-2020 10:11am

some of you are misunderstanding the post, im not advocating taking the cash job, im asking why the offered savings are so small.

ExMachina1000 · 05-06-2020 10:13am

Cyrus wrote: »

some of you are misunderstanding the post, im not advocating taking the cash job, im asking why the offered savings are so small.

I get ya. It's not enough of a price reduction that's whi I said is it labour only

Kilboor · 05-06-2020 10:14am

Cyrus wrote: »

some of you are misunderstanding the post, im not advocating taking the cash job, im asking why the offered savings are so small.

Because in general the person will accept it. Why would you not charge a higher price.

Iodine1 · 05-06-2020 10:15am

mickdw wrote: »

Some tradesmen will not be vat registered while still being legit. In that case, 450 cash would be a reasonable deduction.
A vat registered person should be knocking off vat plus for a cash job.
Its ok to knock tradesmen and call them all cowboys but customer is equally to blame as trades are continually asked for cash prices.

If not Vat registered, he should not be charging Vat and he should still give a receipt, and take payment by whatever means.

Ush1 · 05-06-2020 10:16am

Cyrus wrote: »

some of you are misunderstanding the post, im not advocating taking the cash job, im asking why the offered savings are so small.

Well realistically they aren't going to risk tax evasion for nothing.

You get the VAT off the price, they don't have to pay PAYE, PRSI and USC. That's the trade.

No point in them deducting that off the price for you for them to get the same amount they would have if they would have done the job through the books.

05-06-2020 10:17am

Cyrus wrote: »

Someone educate me,

a tradesman gives you a price for a job, say 500 euro but says i can do it for cash for 450.

What am i missing, he doesnt need to charge vat, 13.5%, gets him to 440 (450 close enough fine), but nor is he paying any corporation tax or paye.

the savings should be a lot more than him knocking some of the vat off surely?

He can claim.the vat back on materials,while not paying any on the job

Though personally think its a bad idea,your only saving someone else money

silver2020 · 05-06-2020 10:19am

I would guess the savings are split 50/50.

€100 saving - you get €50 off, he gets extra €50.

Not really worth it unless its something that can't be done wrong and the incentive jumps you up a waiting list and jobs like that you can probably do yourself or get someone from a mens shed to do.

Personally I would always pay direct into a bank account - it takes a few hours in most cases to eb in the account and gives you a record for yourself.

Ush1 · 05-06-2020 10:21am

Deleted User wrote: »

He can claim.the vat back on materials,while not paying any on the job

Though personally think its a bad idea,your only saving someone else money

That would be a risky thing to do, revenue could ask what job were these materials used for and where is the paper work?

Baymax2020 · 05-06-2020 10:22am

Cyrus wrote: »

some of you are misunderstanding the post, im not advocating taking the cash job, im asking why the offered savings are so small.

More than likely because he still has to pay other costs that people who aren't from a trade background don't see, such as tax and insurance on his van basic upkeep and maintenance of his tools or if one of his tools breaks it would have to be replaced.

I wouldn't worry about a tradesman been a cowboy just because he knocks a few quid off for cash as long as he comes with a good reputation or you have seen some previous work.

B.A._Baracus · 05-06-2020 10:23am

Cyrus wrote: »

some of you are misunderstanding the post, im not advocating taking the cash job, im asking why the offered savings are so small.

Simply put he wagered that by giving you 50 euro off for paying cash you would take it.

So he gets his cash in hand.
He doesn't give you a receipt as that's the deal.
He doesn't pay any tax.
It's a nixer.

Cyrus · 05-06-2020 10:29am

Baymax2020 wrote: »

More than likely because he still has to pay other costs that people who aren't from a trade background don't see, such as tax and insurance on his van basic upkeep and maintenance of his tools or if one of his tools breaks it would have to be replaced.

I wouldn't worry about a tradesman been a cowboy just because he knocks a few quid off for cash as long as he comes with a good reputation or you have seen some previous work.

he pays them whether he he charges vat or not, by making it a cash job he makes a lot more, i dont get your point at all.

and i also agree that not all tradesmen that do jobs for cash are cowboys

Ush1 · 05-06-2020 10:30am

Cyrus wrote: »

he pays them whether he he charges vat or not, by making it a cash job he makes a lot more, i dont get your point at all.

and i also agree that not all tradesmen that do jobs for cash are cowboys

He makes more, you pay less. Where's the confusion?

Cyrus · 05-06-2020 10:34am

Ush1 wrote: »

He makes more, you pay less. Where's the confusion?

yes but the hidden costs that were mentioned are there one way or the other. tax on his van tools etc.

also he makes a lot more than i save, just doesnt make sense as a value proposition.

Baymax2020 · 05-06-2020 10:48am

Cyrus wrote: »

yes but the hidden costs that were mentioned are there one way or the other. tax on his van tools etc.

also he makes a lot more than i save, just doesnt make sense as a value proposition.

It's simple if you're not happy with his price go elsewhere or else pay the full amount and get a receipt. He's giving you the opportunity to save a few quid makes no odds to him if you take it or leave it

Ush1 · 05-06-2020 10:50am

Cyrus wrote: »

yes but the hidden costs that were mentioned are there one way or the other. tax on his van tools etc.

also he makes a lot more than i save, just doesnt make sense as a value proposition.

He's the one taking the bigger risk. Haggle the price or pay the VAT, or get someone else.

Cyrus · 05-06-2020 10:50am

Baymax2020 wrote: »

It's simple if you're not happy with his price go elsewhere or else pay the full amount and get a receipt. He's giving you the opportunity to save a few quid makes no odds to him if you take it or leave it

sure thats a given, but your other point made no sense.

and it is odds to him at the rates quoted because he makes a lot more doing it for cash than legit.

Cyrus · 05-06-2020 10:51am

Ush1 wrote: »

He's the one taking the bigger risk. Haggle the price or pay the VAT, or get someone else.

again you are misunderstanding me,

im not paying cash, im paying the full price,

i just find the cash price offered strange and not worth my while going to an atm to be frank!

Ush1 · 05-06-2020 10:52am

Cyrus wrote: »

sure thats a given, but your other point made no sense.

and it is odds to him at the rates quoted because he makes a lot more doing it for cash than legit.

Most tradesmen I've dealt with it doesn't make much odds to them because they will need to put most jobs through the books anyway. A couple of cash jobs or nixors here and there.

Ush1 · 05-06-2020 10:55am

Cyrus wrote: »

again you are misunderstanding me,

im not paying cash, im paying the full price,

i just find the cash price offered strange and not worth my while going to an atm to be frank!

I'm not misunderstanding you, I'm explaining the cash price offered that you find strange. He is taking a bigger risk so while you will save 13.5% on the price, he saves more but you can haggle or be happy with that saving.

If it's a 50 or 60k job, 13.5% is a nice saving.

Cyrus · 05-06-2020 10:56am

Ush1 wrote: »

I'm not misunderstanding you, I'm explaining the cash price offered that you find strange. He is taking a bigger risk so while you will save 13.5% on the price, he saves more but you can haggle or be happy with that saving.

If it's a 50 or 60k job, 13.5% is a nice saving.

it is, not many people paying cash for a 50/60k job.

also, if a tradesman is doing it the 25-30k extra he makes for cash is a very nice saving.

Ush1 · 05-06-2020 10:58am

Cyrus wrote: »

it is, not many people paying cash for a 50/60k job.

also, if a tradesman is doing it the 25-30k extra he makes for cash is a very nice saving.

Yep and if revenue comes a knocking it will be his problem, not yours.

Mad_maxx · 05-06-2020 11:37am

Cyrus wrote: »

Someone educate me,

a tradesman gives you a price for a job, say 500 euro but says i can do it for cash for 450.

What am i missing, he doesnt need to charge vat, 13.5%, gets him to 440 (450 close enough fine), but nor is he paying any corporation tax or paye.

the savings should be a lot more than him knocking some of the vat off surely?

if was quoted 500 for a job , id offer 400 cash , 450 is too high as i can usually write off cost against tax

Mad_maxx · 05-06-2020 11:38am

Padre_Pio wrote: »

It should. You save a little money, he makes more money.
You have no comeback should anything go wrong, and usually he's likely a cowboy if he's offering cash jobs in the first place.

vast majority of tradesmen will try and get cash including the good ones for jobs under 5 k

biko · 05-06-2020 11:42am

Cash = "I don't have to stand over this work as there's no proof"

Mad_maxx · 05-06-2020 11:43am

biko wrote: »

Cash = "I don't have to stand over this work as there's no proof"

if a tradesmen makes a balls of a 500 euro job , the customer is not going to follow them anyway , court is too drawn out and too expensive , the tradesmen have so much work , they dont care about loosing a customer , most tradesmen have a mercenary attitude

Peter File · 05-06-2020 11:44am

Mad_maxx wrote: »

if a tradesmen makes a balls of a 500 euro job , the customer is not going to follow them anyway , court is too drawn out and too expensive

Small claims court is there for cases like that

B.A._Baracus · 05-06-2020 11:45am

I get what you are saying op.
Like, there he is taking off 50 euro if it's cash in hand. You knowing the score and thinking "ok, he's not gonna pay tax"

Yet, on the surface from your aspect that if he is willing to dodge tax why not make the discount a bit higher to you (why not quote 400? 360?)

Thing is, he has to make money too. If the offer is too low for cash in hand why should he do it? He'd make more paying tax and going through the system (quote of 500)

05-06-2020 11:48am

It’s not a great reduction I’d personally be expecting to save much more by doing cash.

I’ll be starting a selfbuild direct labour in the next 6 months or so and I will be paying cash as much as possible to the trades people (which will be most of the major jobs as I already know the people I will use and they all take cash from previous experience) to bring down my build cost. I’d expect to be saving far more than the 10% in the op for paying cash but the figures will be much bigger so more more room to negotiate.

As for tradesmen not standing over cash jobs? Rubbish. A good tradesman will stand over cash jobs the same as any other. Ones who don’t stand over cash jobs are the same ones who would try to get out of obligations on jobs with paper work too.

05-06-2020 5:56pm

Ush1 wrote: »

That would be a risky thing to do, revenue could ask what job were these materials used for and where is the paper work?

In theory yes,

In reality revenue too busy to check too deep,and lads just lump them in,with other jobs....its pointless messing tbh

arybvtcw0eolkf · 05-06-2020 6:35pm

Iodine1 wrote: »

Cash job, no receipt, no insurance and no comeback. €50 saved could be the most expensive €50 you ever saved.

A lesson I learned over the years, thinking I was saving a few quid by paying cash, then the tradesman can't be found if there's any problems with the job.

Now I'd rather pay the extra and know I've some comeback.

05-06-2020 6:57pm

Juliana Wailing Racquet wrote: »

A lesson I learned over the years, thinking I was saving a few quid by paying cash, then the tradesman can't be found if there's any problems with the job.

Now I'd rather pay the extra and know I've some comeback.

Again the problem there is your choice of tradesman not the fact they take cash. I’ve yet to come across a tradesman who doesn’t take cash and the vast majority would be skilled workers who stand over their work.

corner of hells · 05-06-2020 7:39pm

Myra Full Slot wrote: »

Again the problem there is your choice of tradesman not the fact they take cash. I’ve yet to come across a tradesman who doesn’t take cash and the vast majority would be skilled workers who stand over their work.

I've seen a nightmare develop from tradesman agreeing to cash with the client disputing the various agreed cash prices and threatening to call the taxman on all the trades on her housebuild.
I subcontracted on a day rate off a contractor and ended up ok but lots on the build lost due to dealing directly with client building the house.

KaneToad · 05-06-2020 7:41pm

Baymax2020 wrote: »

It's simple if you're not happy with his price go elsewhere or else pay the full amount and get a receipt. He's giving you the opportunity to save a few quid makes no odds to him if you take it or leave it

Or option 3, report him to revenue.

Irish Praetorian · 05-06-2020 8:08pm

KaneToad wrote: »

Or option 3, report him to revenue.

And do what exactly, suggest that a tradesman offered to circumvent VAT when he may not even be VAT registered? Realistically the tradesman could simply say that the client was disgruntled and threatened to complain if he was not given a lower price. Now maybe it will raise a red flag which leads to an audit or more scrutiny and maybe it convinces the tradesman to stop offering nixers, but I wouldn't be so sure of any of those.

mad m · 05-06-2020 8:14pm

Cyrus wrote: »

some of you are misunderstanding the post, im not advocating taking the cash job, im asking why the offered savings are so small.

He was chancing his arm...

JohnnyFlash · 05-06-2020 8:18pm

How does paying a tradesman with a cheque or credit card give you any recourse above and beyond what you'd get by paying cash?

I own a few apartments in town, and had them all done up paying in cash for plumbing, tiling, painting etc. I supplied the materials myself, and they do the labour for cash.

Irish Praetorian · 05-06-2020 8:46pm

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

How does paying a tradesman with a cheque or credit card give you any recourse above and beyond what you'd get by paying cash?

I own a few apartments in town, and had them all done up paying in cash for plumbing, tiling, painting etc. I supplied the materials myself, and they do the labour for cash.

If a tradesman cashes a cheque or receives a bank transfer, the first thing any accountant will ask him when it comes time to file is 'what was that for?' They will ask you the same thing when they see the money leaving the account. A direct transfer to a tradesman is a greater indication of an agreement to do a job than a random cash withdrawal.

JohnnyFlash · 05-06-2020 9:14pm

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

If a tradesman cashes a cheque or receives a bank transfer, the first thing any accountant will ask him when it comes time to file is 'what was that for?' They will ask you the same thing when they see the money leaving the account. A direct transfer to a tradesman is a greater indication of an agreement to do a job than a random cash withdrawal.

I get that there's a money trail. But that means nothing. There's no contract at all.

The reality is most tradesmen are decent sorts, and tend to do a good job. And they've huge problems collecting money as well for work done. So it goes both ways.

tabby aspreme · 06-06-2020 7:32am

Like someone posted earlier, cash doesn't matter to a lot of tradesmen as it will be lodged in the bank either way, and it's a bit of a minefield. One such example I had, was with a very sanctimonious lady, with a highly paid state job , who asked me to price some work in her house, and in the course of the conversation said she would be paying cash, it made no difference to me as It was going in the bank either way, but I didn't say that to her as she thought she was getting a cash price. I did the work, got paid, and then she asked me for a receipt, and the sting in the tail was she wanted the receipt to state the work was done in two rental properties she has, so she could claim it against tax herself.

the beer revolu · 06-06-2020 10:04am

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The reality is most tradesmen are decent sorts, and tend to do a good job.

Joke thread is over there >

Tradesmen and cash jobs

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