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Cold Spell - Feb 7th to 13th 2021 - Technical Discussion

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭TheMilkyPirate


    If the GFS came off it would be snowing in the east from Thursday until Monday. Cold air keeps winning against the fronts coming in. Unlikely as that is as of now, I'd expect a warning from Met Eireann tomorrow night for Thursday IF still showing as modelled.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭Neddyusa


    Nqp15hhu wrote: »
    The only issue I have is the wind and cloud. It’s quite difficult to sustain subzero temps in sunshine without snow cover.

    Here today we struggled to get above 2c despite the sunshine, I think that is relatively cold. Yes the minimums could be better, that is down to the wind rather than the airmass intensity.

    An easterly, however, is never going to meet the standards of a good northerly here.



    That applies for most of Ireland (except for East Munster and coastal counties of Leinster)


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,736 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    If tonights GFS comes off, over 100cm of snow is possible in the Wicklow mountains. SE Leinster could see up to 20cm too in places away from high ground. It doesn't show much for Dublin/Meath possibly the Wicklow mountains killing much of our snowfall, possibly taking snow melt into the equation too.

    Looks loads for Donegal as well as western southern parts of Northern Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,485 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    Starting to look incredible for the East Thursday to Sunday
    Heavy snow almost a certain red warning for the East and Northeast
    Those who are saying this Easterly is a sham compared to years gone by. Em sorry I've lived through them and if the snow delivers this weekend it will be on the top 5 over the last 40 years!!

    That IF is too off the mark to even be a probable. I think you're way off. And this Easterly is not in the top 10 in my 60+ years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,779 ✭✭✭snowgal


    Jim_Hodge wrote: »
    That IF is too off the mark to even be a probable. I think you're way off. And this Easterly is not in the top 10 in my 60+ years.

    That if is model watching, what else can we do...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 303 ✭✭gimpotronitus


    Gonzo wrote: »
    If tonights GFS comes off, over 100cm of snow is possible in the Wicklow mountains. SE Leinster could see up to 20cm too in places away from high ground. It doesn't show much for Dublin/Meath possibly the Wicklow mountains killing much of our snowfall, possibly taking snow melt into the equation too.

    Looks loads for Donegal as well as western southern parts of Northern Ireland.

    With the exception of higher ground in South Dublin, usually does well in this kind of setup.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭TheMilkyPirate


    GEM has the warmer air in on Saturday but not before two snow events Thursday and Friday night into Saturday


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    Copied this over from the chat thread because it will quickly go back in the thread there:
    A reliable answer to the Thursday snow potential won't really be available until closer to the time (Friday morning? jk) ... but there's no particular trend towards or away from good snow potential in the most recent guidance. The basic concept of that potential is that milder air will meet enough resistance from cold air to be forced over top for long enough that there's a decent period of snowfall before the inevitable time where the front pushes through and there's no more over-running. A second warm front is likely to be embedded in the flow which would lead to a secondary maximum of precip later, all rain (but this applied with greater confidence to the western two-thirds of Ireland, there are still options where the cold air is so resistant that it never actually leaves before the over-running moves away to the north, to be followed by a second boundary event of some kind around Monday).

    This can all change if the models pick up on either (a) less resistance, the cold high moving away to the east too far to offer much resistance), or (b) less warm air advection, the cold air winning out more decisively and keeping the milder air at bay. I don't think there's much chance of (b) but there is a significant chance of (a).

    Also snow rates can be greater or lesser depending on the dynamics, maybe some would fall but not very much, with adequate time but rates too low, the outcome is not as good.

    I am seeing a tendency for the cold block to start sliding south more to the east of Britain which we'll need to assess, part of the thinking about snow potential involves how cold it remains in Britain because by then, with a southeast flow established, the cold air being maintained in eastern Ireland needs to be reinforced by deeper cold in western Britain, otherwise, western Britain becomes the more ideal location for the snowfall.

    Just a general note, if anything, the small amounts of snow being reported so far are a bit ahead of median expectations from model guidance, as I was hoping might be the case, so certainly on a good trend since tomorrow was always looking better than today.

    I was following reports fairly closely in southeast England and the details there are interesting. Snow amounts have varied considerably, two areas seemed to do particularly well, one being east Kent (10-20 cm amounts) and the other being a coastal to 20 km inland stretch of east Anglia from Norfolk to Essex, 20-30 cm amounts reported locally there. Into parts of west Kent, east London and east Surrey, 5 cms about the best amounts reported, and gradually down to trace-2 cm coatings further west into Oxfordshire.

    Results in the U.K. midlands and Yorkshire somewhat hit or miss, but some reports of thundersnow which could become the case in the Dublin area at times tomorrow, we shall see. Not that I'm saying thundersnow plus massive amounts of snow in this case, just thunder with whatever smaller amounts you might see. Local maxima tomorrow could be 10-15 cm in a few lucky spots. Average might be a lot closer to 2 cms.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,656 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    A sober update by M.T. I wish i had given him some whiskey before he wrote it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Nqp15hhu


    I’m not convinced the mild air will win out.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭kerrycork13


    Nqp15hhu wrote: »
    I’m not convinced the mild air will win out.

    Probability says it will. We probably needed a longer spell on colder weather to be in place and the low coming from the south more so than the south west.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,351 ✭✭✭Cloudio9


    Michelle Dillon on with Claire Byrne there favouring the cold winning


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭piplip87


    Michelle Dillon was on with Clare Byrne there, she said that its looking like the cold could win and we could have the battle continuing into next week.

    Warnings will be issued on Wednesday


  • Registered Users Posts: 718 ✭✭✭Kunta Kinte


    piplip87 wrote: »
    Michelle Dillon was on with Clare Byrne there, she said that its looking like the cold could win and we could have the battle continuing into next week.

    Warnings will be issued on Wednesday

    For where? The whole country or just the east and north?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    For where? The whole country or just the east and north?

    East and North.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭piplip87


    For where? The whole country or just the east and north?

    I don't know. I'd imagine a Yellow nationwide id say all areas will see snow. South and west could see rain fairly quickly after it. and maybe Orange above Dublin/Galway line for eastern half. Just a wild guess my chart reading wouldnt be great


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Nqp15hhu wrote: »
    I’m not convinced the mild air will win out.

    I'm not either,not for a few days anyway and even then,the cold might only be off for a smoke break
    I've seen this before in the 80s a few times


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    The way things are at the moment, we could see a 24-hour period of continuous snow through northern Leinster and Ulster from Thursday evening.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    piplip87 wrote: »
    I don't know. I'd imagine a Yellow nationwide id say all areas will see snow. South and west could see rain fairly quickly after it. and maybe Orange above Dublin/Galway line for eastern half. Just a wild guess my chart reading wouldnt be great

    In a SE flow,I'd imagine the cold UK surface air would advect into wexford also and kilkenny and carlow


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    The 18z GFS is trending towards ECM. The cold is briefly displaced Sunday, uppers climb to -1c generally but drop to -10c again Monday.

    GFSOPUK18_159_25.png

    Monday morning ^


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭Slashermcguirk


    That was a very encouraging update from Michelle on Claire Byrne, things could get very interesting from Wednesday night!


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    Mod Note: Moved some posts, if your post has disappeared, look on the Chat thread for it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Arduach


    Very happy with the first day of the cold spell. Reminded me of the Thursday before snow came on Friday 8th February 1991. Not as cold as the Monday in January 1987 of that deep Siberian easterly. That was some synoptic setup. I could never understand how it was shifted so quickly by the Atlantic the following Saturday.

    Anyway we had an ice day today on the Laois/Carlow/Kilkenny border. At 336m ask the temp never rose above -0.5C.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    Arduach wrote: »
    Anyway we had an ice day today on the Laois/Carlow/Kilkenny border. At 336m ask the temp never rose above -0.5C.

    What station have you? :confused:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Nqp15hhu


    AuntySnow wrote: »
    In a SE flow,I'd imagine the cold UK surface air would advect into wexford also and kilkenny and carlow

    Only if the wind is from the east.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Arduach


    12 January 2010 brought serious frontal snow to us.

    I think this Thursday and Friday has greater potential for larger swathes of the country, and lower altitudes. Really think the cold will have digged in nicely. In my 40 plus years experience this could be a real humdinger.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Arduach


    Danno wrote: »
    What station have you? :confused:

    Old Stevenson screen including a thermometer which has proven very accurate when compared to my neighbours' Davis.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Arduach


    Danno wrote: »
    What station have you? :confused:

    I was driving in the Crettyard, Laois area and, as it turns out, the car thermometer corresponds well with the neighbours' Davis.

    It was 1.5c there at 2pm. I'd expect a little drop each day to Wednesday. Think the Midlands/east/north east will do well.

    I think people saying this easterly isn't as good as others are being a bit nostalgic.

    The hands were always froze off us in wintry weather as children! We're a bit hardier now and don't feel as cold as kids and old people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,355 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    Verbatim, the 18z GFS holds out a strong prospect of an almost nationwide snow event, but when I check its snow and precip panels, I see signs of underestimation of potential there, so would take the snowfall panels with some caution as they may be underdone (in central counties in particular, they seem to be assigning a much larger snow shield effect to the southeastern hills which I don't think would be valid given the frontal dynamics in play).

    The scenario on offer is this -- cold air is only pushed back very slowly, to about a Waterford to Mayo line, late afternoon Thursday, then it pushes back and regains about a county-wide advantage for most of the evening and overnight, is then pushed back slowly into Friday at which point the event begins to taper off anyway (energy rotating further north for a time) so the cold air is never pushed very far east before it begins to ooze back to the west for another boundary event Sunday night into Monday. Then there's a more rapid breakdown event for later in the week but with the progressive bias of the GFS in mind, that could be just another boundary skirmish and not a total bye-bye to cold as depicted.

    With this first event, potential appears to be well into the 10-20 cm range and could end up 20-30 cm closer to the event. Cold is very well entrenched and the surface flow would be from the southeast across 8 C ocean surfaces all the way back to the Channel so you would think the lower mid-level atmosphere would be juiced up nicely as the Atlantic front tries to push in against it all. The snow changing to rain scenario probably applies more to West Munster and southwest Connacht than other regions. If this model depiction is anywhere near accurate it will be a very significant snowfall and fairly prolonged, it could go for 24-36 hours in some places.

    Another feature worth tracking is that now there's a more robust push of very cold uppers into Ulster by Wednesday that (with short sea crossing in northeast low level flow) could push temperatures down to -3 to -5 C in Ulster, and almost that cold spreading into parts of the midlands and Leinster as a result, especially if there's any snow cover laid down on Tuesday prior to this starting. (-13 C 850s are shown intruding from Scotland into east Ulster by Wednesday 12z).

    Certainly some similarity to the dynamics of the Jan 1982 snowfall event in play here.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Nqp15hhu


    It was <-10c 850hPa here today and we still rose to 2c, so I am not convinced -13c would deliver anything lower than 0c during the day. Unless cloudy

    It will be interesting to see what we max out at tomorrow due to the lower minimums.


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