GE2020: Kildare North

hero001 · 30-01-2020 10:50am

Orion wrote: »

He said that about FG last time too - they did split the vote but transfers from Lawless got Durkan elected. There's little doubt Murphy will top the poll. Most likely a distributable surplus on 1st count. How 1st are shared will decide the rest - Not many come back from a large deficit (some notable exceptions). But I'll be shocked if FG don't have 1 seat in NK.
Likely outcome is SD, FF, FG, 1 from Green/FF/FG - in that order.

The danger for FG is that Lawlor may do slightly better this time, meaning that Durkan and Lawlor will end up in 5th and 6th place at the final count. Green's may be transfer friendly, so they could have a real chance here.

ghostdancer · 30-01-2020 10:55am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Hah, Really wish he wasn't part of that religiously aligned ilk. Thats a brilliant reply.

brilliantly moronic, yes.

ghostdancer · 30-01-2020 11:14am

WishUWereHere wrote: »

I read on KFM that O’Rourke is looking to have a bus lane on the M4. So, he wants no hard shoulder? I have. Driven all over Europe and cannot recall any Mway ever having a Bus lane.

lots of newer motorways (sometimes older ones with the space too) have them as an extra lane during rush hours.
hard shoulders are essentially dead space 99.99% of the time, so being used as a bus lane is a no-brainer where possible.

the M4 is being widened to facilitate it anyway, as mentioned it has f- all to do with O'Rourke.
it makes sense as it can then merge with the N4 bus lane/2 lanes at Lucan.

https://www.dublinlive.ie/bus-lanes-considered-motorway-maynooth-15810030

Unfortunately most buses will still be picking up in Leixlip/Celbridge anyway, so I'm not sure how much impact it will really have. Good for the Bus Eireann buses I guess, and maybe it'll inspire a few more direct buses from Kilcock/Maynooth.

Seth Brundle · 30-01-2020 11:18am

ghostdancer wrote: »

the M4 is being widened to facilitate it anyway, as mentioned it has f- all to do with O'Rourke.
it makes sense as it can then merge with the N4 bus lane/2 lanes at Lucan.

Adding another lane to the M4 is only going to mean more cars will choose to use the motorway which in turn will help encourage more urban sprawl which in turn will lead to longer commuting times and even crappier lives for those commuters.
...and O'Rourke wants to take credit for this?

L1011 · 30-01-2020 11:22am

ghostdancer wrote: »

Unfortunately most buses will still be picking up in Leixlip/Celbridge anyway, so I'm not sure how much impact it will really have. Good for the Bus Eireann buses I guess, and maybe it'll inspire a few more direct buses from Kilcock/Maynooth.

I could easily see Eirebus (Swords Express/Fingal Express) or similar jumping in with a direct service - there's no point doing one when the train would beat it with current congestion; but with a bus lane it'd be quicker to the core city centre than by rail.

ghostdancer · 30-01-2020 11:23am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Adding another lane to the M4 is only going to mean more cars will choose to use the motorway which in turn will help encourage more urban sprawl which in turn will lead to longer commuting times and even crappier lives for those commuters.
...and O'Rourke wants to take credit for this?

it's not adding another lane though, it's (possibly) widening the hard shoulder to use safely as a bus lane.
Cars will still be in their 2 lanes AFAIK, so there's no reason why more cars will be using it.

L1011 · 30-01-2020 11:25am

ghostdancer wrote: »

it's not adding another lane though, it's (possibly) widening the hard shoulder to use safely as a bus lane.
Cars will still be in their 2 lanes AFAIK, so there's no reason why more cars will be using it.

Unless the plans have completely changed - or Frank has completely mangled what he was told in a rush to get something in the Champion before print deadline - the plan is for an additional lane each side AND an inbound bus lane.

ghostdancer · 30-01-2020 11:49am

I haven't seen the plans, just going off what I've seen reported, eg. my link above. I wouldn't have thought there's space for 3 lanes+hard shoulder/bus lane, on both sides, without significant works?
there's definitely parts that it isn't possible, like at the Water Treatment plant bridge, or several overpasses and off ramps, without enormous construction works/costs.

in fact, looking at the overpasses on Google Streetview, I don't see how it's possible any of them could accommodate 4 "lanes"?

L1011 · 30-01-2020 11:51am

Ove Arup were appointed to do the design work for the widening 6 weeks ago. There would not be a hard shoulder and a bus lane.

The inbound span of the Liffey bridge may need widening regardless though.

ghostdancer · 30-01-2020 12:03pm

ah right, I think these are 2 different things so.

Re-surfacing supposed to be happening in the next few months, with talk of the existing hard shoulder potentially being turned into a bus lane at the same time. Again looking at the overpasses, I don't think that will be a go-er, as it looks too tight in sections to allow buses/coaches IMO. Plus surely it would have had to have had assessments and confirmation finished by now?

Widening to 3 lanes proper is a few years down the road at least.

L1011 · 30-01-2020 12:05pm

No, I think Frank has just mangled absolutely everything and its all the one process.

The resurfacing was meant to be done in October and was kicked out due to the widening, so as not to be seen to be wasting money tearing it up again a short time later

ghostdancer · 30-01-2020 12:08pm

yes, the bus lane and widening to 3 lanes appear to be the same process, and Frank is talking nonsense.
so basically in a few years time, there'll be a slightly wider M4, which may be used as 3 lanes, or Bus Lane + 2 lanes.

https://www.leinsterleader.ie/news/home/512496/upgrade-of-m4-motorway-could-start-as-early-as-march.html

The resurfacing of the M4 motorway between Kilcock and Lucan could start as early as March.
Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII) said a Low Noise Surface will be installed to reduce traffic sound levels for nearby residents and businesses.
The issue of noise from the motorway has been raised with local politicians in recent years.
The TII also said bus lane is now being considered between Maynooth and Lucan.

Local Fianna Fail TD Frank O'Rourke said: “The TII has informed me that phase one of the resurfacing works, with a low noise surface, between Kilcock and Maynooth is set to commence in March/April which is very positive news.

"The TII are now considering my proposal to provide a Bus Lane between Maynooth and Lucan, which would improve the travel time for our bus service. This bus lane could be included in the next phase of the M4 resurfacing works.”

He added: “We should provide a bus lane from Maynooth to the city centre. This will improve the bus service for Maynooth and Kilcock Bus Commuters. I am delighted that my proposal is now being considered by the TII and Kildare Co Council."

L1011 · 30-01-2020 12:10pm

ghostdancer wrote: »

https://www.leinsterleader.ie/news/home/512496/upgrade-of-m4-motorway-could-start-as-early-as-march.html

Yeah, he's mangled stuff. There is no next stage of resurfacing works; its all what comes from the Arup design process.

Desperation to get his name in the papers the week before election; that's all

buffalo · 30-01-2020 12:49pm

Orion wrote: »

Appears Lawless is also Band 1 (>25Km and <60Km) and claims it. 25K a year. So this thing about claiming the Leap card only is wrong.

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/members/parliamentaryAllowances/psa/2020/2020-01-01_parliamentary-standard-allowance-payments-to-deputies-for-november-2019_en.pdf

Here's the bands. https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/members/salaries-and-allowances/parliamentary-standard-allowances/

Just so I'm clear on this - all KN TDs except for Catherine Murphy were paid €25,295 for travel and accommodation allowance? Or were they merely allowed to claim up that max limit? What's the €3,803.75 for Frank O'Rourke for?

L1011 · 30-01-2020 1:06pm

buffalo wrote: »

Just so I'm clear on this - all KN TDs except for Catherine Murphy were paid €25,295 for travel and accommodation allowance? Or were they merely allowed to claim up that max limit? What's the €3,803.75 for Frank O'Rourke for?

TAA (the ~26k and ~9k for Murphy) is an automatic allowance; unvouched and based on distance. It was brought in after some ridiculous mileage claims by TDs. Its not a good system, though. I'm not sure if it is actually possible to refuse it. Its cut if you don't turn up enough/at all, down to zero in theory.

The €3,803.75 is the TAA plus PRA (Parliamentary Representation Allowance - a max amount for office and some other costs) paid out in a given month.

The PRA for a backbencher is a shade over 20k. Frank is claiming the absolute maximum PRA; but nearly everyone does. There are some notable exceptions; or people claiming very low amounts.

baaba maal · 30-01-2020 1:08pm

ghostdancer wrote: »

brilliantly moronic, yes.

Yes it is- he is asked about an actual national issue (in suburban and urban areas) and turns it into virtue signalling for the idiots who think that a more sustainable transport infrastructure isn't something that needs to be looked at.

I hadn't realised that organised crime and sustainable travel could not both be
issues- thanks Renua.

buffalo · 30-01-2020 1:21pm

buffalo wrote: »

Just so I'm clear on this - all KN TDs except for Catherine Murphy were paid €25,295 for travel and accommodation allowance? Or were they merely allowed to claim up that max limit? What's the €3,803.75 for Frank O'Rourke for?

While trying to clarify this for myself, I came across the following: https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2019/1030/1087550-attendance-record-and-travel-expenses/

Figures are TAA expenses they claimed between March 2016 and the end of 2018 - the days are days they signed into the Dáil but didn't attend any votes (there would be other days they signed in and attended votes).

James Lawless (€ 71,960) 35 days
Catherine Murphy (€ 25,603) 31 days
Frank O'Rourke (€ 71,960) 22 days
Bernard Durkan (€ 71,960) 1 day

L1011 · 30-01-2020 1:24pm

buffalo wrote: »

While trying to clarify this for myself, I came across the following: https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2019/1030/1087550-attendance-record-and-travel-expenses/

Figures are TAA expenses they claimed between March 2016 and the end of 2018 - the days are days they signed into the Dáil but didn't attend any votes (there would be other days they signed in and attended votes).

James Lawless (€ 71,960) 35 days
Catherine Murphy (€ 25,603) 31 days
Frank O'Rourke (€ 71,960) 22 days
Bernard Durkan (€ 71,960) 1 day

There can be legitimate reasons for signing in and not voting and if their total number is well over the limit its irrelevant - that figure is missing there

If Lawless fobbed in 185 days / Murphy 181 days they would still have attended votes on the 150 days basically.

Those figures have a use (there is no way that the Healey Raes were there >220 days each - they were fobbing in then ****ing off back to a funeral in Kerry at best) but absent other data can't be used alone basically.

buffalo · 30-01-2020 1:33pm

L1011 wrote: »

There can be legitimate reasons for signing in and not voting and if their total number is well over the limit its irrelevant - that figure is missing there

If Lawless fobbed in 185 days / Murphy 181 days they would still have attended votes on the 150 days basically.

Those figures have a use (there is no way that the Healey Raes were there >220 days each - they were fobbing in then ****ing off back to a funeral in Kerry at best) but absent other data can't be used alone basically.

I was more interested in the RTE-verified TAA figures than the days, I just included them as information that others might find useful.

Orion · 30-01-2020 3:30pm

L1011 wrote: »

I'm not sure if it is actually possible to refuse it. Its cut if you don't turn up enough/at all, down to zero in theory.

You can refuse it. Murphy did from 2011-2016. It is considered vouched not unvouched - so you have to apply for it and register your address.

WishUWereHere · 30-01-2020 8:30pm

L1011 wrote: »

TAA (the ~26k and ~9k for Murphy) is an automatic allowance; unvouched and based on distance. It was brought in after some ridiculous mileage claims by TDs. Its not a good system, though. I'm not sure if it is actually possible to refuse it. Its cut if you don't turn up enough/at all, down to zero in theory.

The €3,803.75 is the TAA plus PRA (Parliamentary Representation Allowance - a max amount for office and some other costs) paid out in a given month.

The PRA for a backbencher is a shade over 20k. Frank is claiming the absolute maximum PRA; but nearly everyone does. There are some notable exceptions; or people claiming very low amounts.

This for is beginning to make Maria Bailey/Alan Farrell look like saints.

How is he a tad at all is beyond me.

Orion · 30-01-2020 8:36pm

WishUWereHere wrote: »

This for is beginning to make Maria Bailey/Alan Farrell look like saints.

How is he a tad at all is beyond me.

Both of them claim the expenses too - Dublin band - same as Murphy. However none of the local candidates committed or attempted to commit insurance fraud.

Rulmeq · 31-01-2020 8:39am

L1011 wrote: »

There can be legitimate reasons for signing in and not voting and if their total number is well over the limit its irrelevant - that figure is missing there

If Lawless fobbed in 185 days / Murphy 181 days they would still have attended votes on the 150 days basically.

Those figures have a use (there is no way that the Healey Raes were there >220 days each - they were fobbing in then ****ing off back to a funeral in Kerry at best) but absent other data can't be used alone basically.

Why do they only have to clock in, why don't they also have to clock out?

2lazytogetup · 31-01-2020 11:34am

buffalo wrote: »

While trying to clarify this for myself, I came across the following: https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2019/1030/1087550-attendance-record-and-travel-expenses/

Figures are TAA expenses they claimed between March 2016 and the end of 2018 - the days are days they signed into the Dáil but didn't attend any votes (there would be other days they signed in and attended votes).

James Lawless (€ 71,960) 35 days
Catherine Murphy (€ 25,603) 31 days
Frank O'Rourke (€ 71,960) 22 days
Bernard Durkan (€ 71,960) 1 day

thats shocking. Thats me not voting for any of these so. Fair enough Catherine Murphy claim wasnt as bad. But she wasnt great on the leaders debate last night.

L1011 · 31-01-2020 11:45am

Rulmeq wrote: »

Why do they only have to clock in, why don't they also have to clock out?

I'm sure there's reasons. They're probably crap.

2lazytogetup wrote: »

thats shocking. Thats me not voting for any of these so. Fair enough Catherine Murphy claim wasnt as bad. But she wasnt great on the leaders debate last night.

The TAA is based on distance, Murphy just lives closer. Its a very crude system.

Of course, Frank is pushing the definition of distance by using a specific, selected road distance whereas the other two are significantly over 25km away

daheff · 31-01-2020 10:39pm

L1011 wrote: »

an inbound bus lane.

Why only an inbound bus lane? Is it that they only care that you get to work on time, but don't give a damn how long it takes you to get home??

L1011 · 31-01-2020 11:13pm

daheff wrote: »

Why only an inbound bus lane? Is it that they only care that you get to work on time, but don't give a damn how long it takes you to get home??

Outbound does not have anywhere near the same congestion issues and will likely be fully relieved by a third lane

Stealthirl · 01-02-2020 2:34am

What bus actually goes on the M4 ? Far as im aware it's only the 115 and at that only about 6 would benefit from one. Wouldn't a footpath and cycle lane along the Dublin rd at Weston be a better spend and improve safety there.

L1011 · 01-02-2020 9:51am

Stealthirl wrote: »

What bus actually goes on the M4 ? Far as im aware it's only the 115 and at that only about 6 would benefit from one. Wouldn't a footpath and cycle lane along the Dublin rd at Weston be a better spend and improve safety there.

Also all long distance buses to Galway / Sligo / Mayo, and the private M4 Direct coaches; and the expectation is that more would start if journey times were consistent

boardbeer · 01-02-2020 10:18am

On the M4 bus lane thing, I don't see how this can be provided without a change to the law, as the Road Traffic regs do not allow for Bus Lanes that are not also Cycle lanes, and bicycles aren't allowed on motorways (you may have seen a bus/bike lane sign with the bike painted out, e.g., on the N4 outbound just after the M50 r/bout: this has no legal basis).

Lastblackdog · 01-02-2020 12:44pm

boardbeer wrote: »

On the M4 bus lane thing, I don't see how this can be provided without a change to the law, as the Road Traffic regs do not allow for Bus Lanes that are not also Cycle lanes, and bicycles aren't allowed on motorways (you may have seen a bus/bike lane sign with the bike painted out, e.g., on the N4 outbound just after the M50 r/bout: this has no legal basis).

Can you just imagine a herd of MAMIL's jostling each other to get to the front of the pack as cars and trucks whiz past them at 120kh! Doesn't bear thinking about.

lordgoat · 01-02-2020 4:48pm

L1011 wrote: »

Outbound does not have anywhere near the same congestion issues and will likely be fully relieved by a third lane

Outbound on the N4 is pretty bad most evenings after 5.

Also adding extra lanes in general doesn't fix traffic issues. N7 case in point. N4 will be a disaster during the widening road works with no huge benefit afterwards due to the amount of planned housing on the route.

L1011 · 01-02-2020 4:52pm

lordgoat wrote: »

Outbound on the N4 is pretty bad most evenings after 5.

Also adding extra lanes in general doesn't fix traffic issues. N7 case in point. N4 will be a disaster during the widening road works with no huge benefit afterwards due to the amount of planned housing on the route.

N7 outbound has been hugely improved. Inbound is unfixable as the roads further in are at capacity - rail capacity has to be provided instead. Same with the N4

Seth Brundle · 01-02-2020 5:05pm

In both the M4 and M7 cases it would have been better to invest in better public transport options rather than build a wider road and people still spend hours sitting causing tailbacks

Either way, were getting away from the crap choice of politicians in Kildare North

Lastblackdog · 01-02-2020 6:26pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

In both the M4 and M7 cases it would have been better to invest in better public transport options rather than build a wider road and people still spend hours sitting causing tailbacks

Either way, were getting away from the crap choice of politicians in Kildare North

I agree. However better public transport must include park-n-ride facilities.

Tomrota · 01-02-2020 9:14pm

lordgoat wrote: »

Outbound on the N4 is pretty bad most evenings after 5.

Also adding extra lanes in general doesn't fix traffic issues. N7 case in point. N4 will be a disaster during the widening road works with no huge benefit afterwards due to the amount of planned housing on the route.

The widening has improved traffic heading toward Naas on the N7. Toward Dublin has gotten worse but that’s to expected. That is impossible to fix without public transport, which is virtually nonexistent. Park and ride + DART station + affordable bus services beside the Naas ball would sort a huge amount of the problems with that road.

Of course, the DART line will need to connect with metro lines, luas lines, etc. In the city. Until that happens, the traffic will continue to worsen.

L1011 · 01-02-2020 9:31pm

Tomrota wrote: »

Of course, the DART line will need to connect with metro lines, luas lines, etc. In the city. Until that happens, the traffic will continue to worsen.

The Glasnevin hub will do nearly all of this if they build it as proposed. Metro and Irish Rail all line swap Maynooth/Celbridge/Connolly/Docklands; and Luas Red walking distance if you came on a train that didn't already stop at Broomebridge. And there'll be a BusConnects bus from Hazelhatch to Confey stations picking up all those estates in between with crap bus services and too far for many to want to walk.

Its quite obvious from their manifesto and transport spokesman statement that FF have zero intention of proceeding with existing transport plans as they're tainted by being seen as FG plans though; so if they get in without a significant block of others to keep them away from it we're getting nothing this side of 2030.

Mantis Toboggan · 02-02-2020 3:11pm

Is lawlor the only Naas candidate?

L1011 · 02-02-2020 3:14pm

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Is lawlor the only Naas candidate?

Lawless would also be seen as a Naas candidate.

Tomrota · 02-02-2020 4:25pm

L1011 wrote: »

Lawless would also be seen as a Naas candidate.

Doesn’t Vincent live in Naas?

L1011 · 02-02-2020 8:08pm

Tomrota wrote: »

Doesn’t Vincent live in Naas?

Yes. Forgot him!

The basically anonymous independent Monahan also does.

Orion · 03-02-2020 1:24am

L1011 wrote: »

Lawless would also be seen as a Naas candidate.

As would Martin.

marieholmfan · 03-02-2020 11:16am

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Is lawlor the only Naas candidate?

Vincent P Martin lives in Naas.

L1011 wrote: »

Lawless would also be seen as a Naas candidate.

He's Sallins; which is fine for people who don't mind that sort of thing.

scheister · 03-02-2020 2:11pm

Bernard Durkan and Anthony Lawlor both got 11/10 now for last seat, with Martin gone 5/4 nice 3 ways shoot out for last seat. SF gone from 6/1 to 4/1 for the last seat

rosiem · 03-02-2020 4:14pm

Scoundrel wrote: »

Thanks for that I'll give them a pity preference each so while leaving FG FF and Labour blank as I always do. Renua will soon be consigned to the dustbin of history where it belongs and I'm sure we can all look forward to Mr Ó Ríain standing as an Aontú candidate in the future.

Can I ask in this as it has always confused me is it better to fill in the full voting sheet down to the lowest number of preference ? or only give preference numbers to those you prefer and leave blanks instead of low numbers to people you would not like to see in

Want to make sure I use my vote as best I can just not sure how to do that

L1011 · 03-02-2020 4:31pm

rosiem wrote: »

Can I ask in this as it has always confused me is it better to fill in the full voting sheet down to the lowest number of preference ? or only give preference numbers to those you prefer and leave blanks instead of low numbers to people you would not like to see in

Want to make sure I use my vote as best I can just not sure how to do that

Preferences all the way down until you simply cannot countenance any of the remaining people equally. Or "Vote til you boke" as its been described by NI/Scottish commentators!

Basically, if you find that you really, really don't want to vote for Professor Plum but REALLY REALLY REALLY don't want to vote for Miss Scarlet and Captain Peacock, you should still give Plum your final preference as it would reduce the chances of Scarlet/Peacock getting in.

I've given preferences to people incredibly far down and who I would never even consider voting for in other voting systems because of there being even worse candidates; and I've also given a single 1 and no transfers in another election.

scheister · 03-02-2020 4:55pm

rosiem wrote: »

Can I ask in this as it has always confused me is it better to fill in the full voting sheet down to the lowest number of preference ? or only give preference numbers to those you prefer and leave blanks instead of low numbers to people you would not like to see in

Want to make sure I use my vote as best I can just not sure how to do that

It is a quirk of the system we have I will always vote down the ticket. In a contest with 12 runners normally i select the top 4 and last 4 as they are easiest middle 4 are the hardest. The bottom 4 can be hard as i hate them all so its a case of who is the best of the worst.

Where people can confused is the old idea of by not voting down the ticket you could get someone elected you dont want. To explain in North Kildare last seat comes down to Renua v PBP. Like above we have 12 people running.
PBP are 200 votes ahead and 500 are to be transfered if possible.

So to get the seat reuna need to get 201 votes more then PBP. Assuming all 500 are transferable they need roughly 70% of the votes

If 200 people stopped at 10 and did not give either a preference. Renua still need 201 more then PBO votes but only have a possible 300 votes. so assuming all are transferable they need 251 or 83% of the votes. So uf those 200 consider Renua a better option then PBP but it is a if the world was ending and i had to pick one of them id pick renua type of thing. Gave Renua an 11 instead of stopping a 10 they would do their best to prevent PBP getting the seat.

Scoundrel · 03-02-2020 5:39pm

rosiem wrote: »

Can I ask in this as it has always confused me is it better to fill in the full voting sheet down to the lowest number of preference ? or only give preference numbers to those you prefer and leave blanks instead of low numbers to people you would not like to see in

Want to make sure I use my vote as best I can just not sure how to do that

I personally only give preferences for candidates/parties I agree with in some way i'll never vote for FF or FG ever or renua aontu or any of the other assorted right wing nutjobs. PS a renua leaflet landed in the post today was swiftly deposited into the bin they must be using the last of their money from the state to send them out.

marieholmfan · 03-02-2020 6:03pm

I've decided I don't want to give FG any preferences this time (was never going to give a preference to O'Rourke and after spreading misinformation about Lawless only claiming five grand I'm not voting for him).

Thing is i would rather lawlor or durkin than frank or lawless.

buffalo · 03-02-2020 6:08pm

I got James Lawless' four-page flyer in the door today. The environment is high on my list of policy priorities, so I was interested to see what he had under a heading of 'PROVEN TRACK RECORD ON THE ENVIRONMENT' (his caps). His number one item is "Campaigning for better public transport since 2004" and number two is "Secured recycling bins in Sallins in 2008".

Campaigning doesn't make for a track record to me, so his number one actual achievement is from more than a decade ago? Further down he has a list of measures he's supported in the Dáil, but presumably he didn't propose any of them or that would be highlighted.

I'm only in Kildare a little over a year now, but none of these candidates bar Catherine Murphy has made any sort of decent impression on me in that period. The recent campaign has helped me get to know them a bit better, but I'm not seeing anyone really stand out.

GE2020: Kildare North

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