The state of comments online about road traffic deaths and cycling

Pinch Flat wrote: »

We live in car dominated society and cars are the ultimate expression of the deep seated insecurities that exist in people in a socially immature country like ours with an ingrained culture of victim blaming and reluctance to take personal responsibility. Cycling is considered inferior and the anthesis of all that's wrong with motoring - convenient, cheap, healthy and a virtual certainty of getting from a to b in the same time - weather, schools, summer / winter has little impact.

I can never understand why drivers don't turn their ire towards other drivers - after all, they're the ones they're stuck behind in their (mostly) single occupant cars. They subsidize their fellow drivers insurance with a levy on their policy that covers the €60m in damage uninsured drivers cause annually. They tolerate unaccompanied learner drivers, drunks and drugged drivers, sloppy driving and lazy parking. Speeding is almost seen as some sort of badge of honour - a lot of people see gardai and speed vans as "tax collectors". And you're positively expected to run an amber or late red or else potentially face a tirade of abuse from the motorist behind you who you've "held up". Ironically one of the most common things that irates drivers about cyclists. It's a truly bizarre attitude.

I've read some unbelievable bilge on these boards but this must be among the most bizarre.

It's almost like you're suggesting that Ireland is the only country in the world where people drive cars. Or you are suggesting that Ireland is the only country in the world in which some drivers do not always follow the law.

Needless to say, that in all of your inane ranting about how Irish drivers are unique in tolerating X, Y and Z, and are "immature" etc. you failed to mention how Irish road safety compares with the rest of the world:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

I put it to you that given Ireland's ranking in those statistics, that it does not show evidence of unique "deep seated insecurities" or "a socially immature country." In fact, the evidence shows the exact opposite. Unless of course, it is reasonable to expect a "deeply immature" country to have a very good safety record.

SeanW wrote: »

I've read some unbelievable bilge on these boards but this must be among the most bizarre.

It's almost like you're suggesting that Ireland is the only country in the world where people drive cars. Or you are suggesting that Ireland is the only country in the world in which some drivers do not always follow the law.

Needless to say, that in all of your inane ranting about how Irish drivers are unique in tolerating X, Y and Z, and are "immature" etc. you failed to mention how Irish road safety compares with the rest of the world:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

I put it to you that given Ireland's ranking in those statistics, that it does not show evidence of unique "deep seated insecurities" or "a socially immature country." In fact, the evidence shows the exact opposite. Unless of course, it is reasonable to expect a "deeply immature" country to have a very good safety record.

And yet, none of his comments refer to relativity or international comparisons, or uniqueness. He just called it like it is - we all see it, every day - speeding, phoning, texting, lunching drivers with broken lights and windscreens obscured by phones.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And yet, none of his comments refer to relativity or international comparisons, or uniqueness. He just called it like it is - we all see it, every day - speeding, phoning, texting, lunching drivers with broken lights and windscreens obscured by phones.

Obviously you didn't read his post. Pinchy made it very clear that he was condemning not just Irish drivers, but Irish people as a whole. In. the. very. first. sentence.

Pinch Flat wrote: »

We live in car dominated society and cars are the ultimate expression of the deep seated insecurities that exist in people in a socially immature country like ours with an ingrained culture of victim blaming and reluctance to take personal responsibility.

The rest of their inane post continued along similar lines. And I repeat my earlier view. If a poster is going to attack Irish drivers/people specifically - which is what this poster did, and very clearly - then international data, rankings etc. are both warranted and proper to put those claims into context.

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Are you really saying that because other countries are much worse, then we don't have a problem?
Given that there is a poor level of enforcement (or in some cases, no enforcement) do you believe that because our road kill figures aren't higher means that our drivers aren't that bad and we've no reason to expect better?

We know that zero consequences associated with motor/road use are not possible. However the evidence shows that Ireland represents good practice. Because when it comes to things like road safety, air pollution, Ireland's motoring culture is comparatively good. Irish drivers are competent, appropriately regulated, and vehicular environmental standards are also very strong. As a consequence, Irish air is generally good, and fatalities on our roads are relatively rare.

By contrast, countries where the air is toxic and fatalities are high, tend to have lower environmental standards and bad drivers. Fatalism also plays a role in some countries (e.g. that you can drive like a maniac but you won't get into a crash if it's not your day to die). In other countries people will generally do crazy things like try to kill someone on a bike or make a maneuver without looking, or stop in the middle of a motorway because they missed their turn off (a common occurrence in China), because they actually are "socially immature" i.e. selfish or just don't give two figs.


You just don't see that in this country. The evidence that Irish drivers/people/society are all horrible not only doesn't exist, but actually contradicts the hypothesis. What you do have is a lot of cyclists condemning Irish people/society/drivers in a manner that is completely out of sync with reality. One of the best example of this is the OP:

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

MODERATOR NOTE: Moved the first 22 posts here to a new thread as few of them relate to speed limits in Dublin and thus off-topic on the 30km/h thread.

https://www.thejournal.ie/man-hit-by-truck-charleville-5212906-Sep2020/

This man was killed today. I had a look at the street he was killed on, typical straight road going through a typical car dominated town. We don't know the details but this kind of thing should not be happening in a town centre. If you look at the street here, you'll see it's just a straight road that you could put the foot down on if you wanted, even though it's a town centre. The street should not be designed like this, it should not be possible to floor it on a main street of a town.
I would guess this man's death could have been avoided if the street wasn't designed purely for cars.

It's truly bizarre how many cyclists seem to think that forcing Charleville's Main St to act as the main Cork-Limerick road is a good idea, and not expect the town to be dominated by that flow as a result. It's safe to assume that most of Charleville's traffic is through-traffic (likely including the lorry in the OP), but the number of cyclists who saw that aspect in this case was a number rhyming with Nero.

And yes, opposition to things like bypassing towns like Charleville is something is very much specific to cyclists.

SeanW wrote: »

Obviously you didn't read his post. Pinchy made it very clear that he was condemning not just Irish drivers, but Irish people as a whole. In. the. very. first. sentence.

Actually, it looks like you didn't read my post Seany. I didn't comment on the question of 'Irish drivers vs Irish people'. I commented on your use of international comparisons and relativity to question a simple statement about the poor levels of driving on Irish roads.

Pinch didn't say anything about how good or bad Irish drivers are relative to other countries. The international comparisons aren't particularly relevant, and don't give much comfort to the families of the 2 or 3 people killed by motorists each week here.

And yes, there is a general societal problem with the acceptance of deaths by motorists and acceptance of poor driving standards in general. Look around you on your next journey and see how many drivers are on the phone while driving.

Pinch didn't say anything about how good or bad Irish drivers are relative to other countries. The international comparisons aren't particularly relevant, and don't give much comfort to the families of the 2 or 3 people killed by motorists each week here.

Now you're just straight up gaslighting. He singled out Irish drivers and people very specifically "a socially immature country like ours" in the first sentence of his post and the rest of the inane rant followed along those lines.

As to the evidence, yes, I can see why you would consider it irrelevant when it tells a different story to yours. You never stop talking about how data, evidence and international context is "not relevant" (to you) while you single out Irish people/drivers specifically. But simply because you don't like the facts, does not make them less true. Gaslight people all you want, the facts will still show clearly that Irish drivers are not horrible.

And yes, there is a general societal problem with the acceptance of deaths by motorists and acceptance of poor driving standards in general. Look around you on your next journey and see how many drivers are on the phone while driving.

In Ireland specifically, or more broadly across the world?

Because that seems to be a trend here: condemning Irish people for things that are constants (and usually worse) everywhere else. Starting with the OP - it's generally accepted internationally that forcing a small towns' main street to double up as key national link between a country's main cities will have negative consequences for everyone involved. Even if you don't have fatalities, a route that tries to act as both a street and road will typically fail to work well as either.

I am not aware of anywhere in the world where an arrangement like Main St/the N20 in Charleville would be considered to be ideal. That didn't stop the OP and ALL of the cyclists that followed from solely blaming "Irish planning" and "car dominated street design" for the negative consequences following on from forcing lots of through traffic down a towns main street, which would cause problems in any country. And yes, it seems like every one of you agrees with the OP that the setup in Charleville would work if it were done in another country, less horrible than Ireland.

Since I posted above, there's been 25 further comments. That's in about 15 minutes.

"It’s a sad day for both parties involved.
Cycling is a great hobby but risking your life sharing narrow roads with cars and trucks is absolutely crazy.
As a driver of heavy equipment, trying to overtake a cyclist takes at least a KM, which means driving over the white line putting oncoming traffic in danger. It’s also very frustrating to have to drive behind a cyclist doing 20kph"

So this poster is condoning illegal overtaking. I'm not sure what the solution is to driving behind a cyclist doing 20kph, other than suggesting they somehow speed up to cycling at 80 or 100pkh.

220 posts now on FB, 152 on journal website. On a bank holiday weekend with stories about Covid, sealing of mother and baby records and further treaties for nuclear disarmament, it's cycling travelling 2-abreast, at 20kph, without lights or hi-vis etc that seem to be exercising people the most.