Bicycles, Phoenix Park and traffic

Birdie Num Num · 13-06-2020 10:27pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That has to be one of the most beautiful and depressing sights I've seen in a while. The smile I'd have passing that amount of cars.

One of the comments mentioned 45 minutes to get through.

I'm not overly familiar with the area as it wasn't local to where I've lived in Dublin , but what is the alternative for traffic if through traffic was closed there?

Not much alternatives. All other gates are currently closed so traffic from 5pm on heading towards Castleknock is nuts at the moment. The Navan Rd / N3, Blackhorse Ave and Chapelizod Are the only other options. If the park was shut off to through traffic, Dublin traffic would come to a standstill. The M50 and N3 would stop moving at Junction 6.

magicbastarder · 13-06-2020 10:31pm

Deleted User wrote: »

One of the comments mentioned 45 minutes to get through.

i'd walk that faster.

buffalo · 14-06-2020 10:52am

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

If the park was shut off to through traffic, Dublin traffic would come to a standstill. The M50 and N3 would stop moving at Junction 6.

Or plenty of people would switch to other modes like cycling, and motor traffic would continue at its current slow speeds?

magicbastarder · 14-06-2020 11:11am

my mother's friend drove into the park yesterday (obviously when the traffic was lighter) to go for a walk, and it took her 45 minutes to drive home from the car park at the visitor's centre; she lives near roselawn shopping centre in blanch, 3km from the castleknock gates.
just strikes me as a bit counterproductive that some of the main car parks for people to use when they get to the park are a reasonable distance in - both the visitor centre cark park and the papal cross cark park are 2km in, if coming from either end of chesterfield avenue.

MojoMaker · 14-06-2020 12:04pm

On the other hand, Roselawn to the visitor's centre would have been a nice walk for a lot of people. 5km each way with a coffee in the middle

10km might be a bit daunting for some I accept.

magicbastarder · 14-06-2020 12:17pm

she's in her 70s and has some health issues, so i'll allow the drive.
not that nice a walk yesterday; i suspect the castleknock road was picturesque with fuming cars and fuming inhabitants.

Birdie Num Num · 14-06-2020 1:58pm

buffalo wrote: »

Or plenty of people would switch to other modes like cycling, and motor traffic would continue at its current slow speeds?

Plenty do switch to other modes. I am one of them but it’s not always practical in certain circumstances or practical to all people.

eeeee · 14-06-2020 2:06pm

There's no excuse for using a public park as a through road.
It's a destination, full stop.

Birdie Num Num · 14-06-2020 3:13pm

eeeee wrote: »

There's no excuse for using a public park as a through road.
It's a destination, full stop.

It is currently very much a through road. Plenty cycle through it and drive through it. Most summer weekends the Park is closed from Mountjoy roundabout to Phoenix Monument to vehicles which is great. That is not practical right now with all other gates closed.

Geographically it is also a massive park to one side of the city with a huge population to the NW and as a result it is by default and has evolved as a route used by thousands of people per day. Unfortunately, closing it off entirely would have negative traffic impacts in surrounding areas. The alternative routes don’t have the capacity for the volume of traffic.

I very much use the Park as a destination several times a week and have done for years. I do also have to use it on occasion as a through road. Circumnavigating it is not always an option. Although I am supportive on the ban of commercial vehicles, if I drove one I might have a different opinion.

appledrop · 14-06-2020 3:25pm

I've news for people. The Phoneix Park belongings to everyone. Current restructions on cars parking +gates closed are ridiculous. Its grand for people who live near to walk or cycle but it belongs to all Dubliners + people come from all over Ireland to visit park or zoo.

We went to zoo today + took about 40 mins to get out the gate. There was enough parking beside zoo today but that's because very restricted numbers allowed in zoo. Where are people going to park when zoo fully reopens? No parking whatsoever allowed now along the road.

Fair enough it shouldn't be used as road for commuting daily but you will always need to allow cars access park, zoo, presidents house etc.

Birdie Num Num · 14-06-2020 3:43pm

appledrop wrote: »

The Phoneix Park belongings to everyone

Well said.

KevRossi · 14-06-2020 3:52pm

appledrop wrote: »

I've news for people. The Phoneix Park belongings to everyone. .

Everyone. Not every car.

It's a shltshow as a major city park with all the car traffic on the side roads. It's designed and had been modified for car use with little thought for pedestrians, cyclist or other non-motorised users over the past few decades.

As an example, there are currently 3 places in the park where a cyclist or pedestrian has a right of way over a car, in all other places (dozens and dozens of them) the car has full priority. That's madness. Totally stupid for a park.

The numbers speak for themselves; there has been a huge uptake in people using it since the restrictions for cars were introduced, so the OPW needs to consider that in developing the park in the future.

FWIW, Chesterfield Avenue was closed to parking to facilitate more space for walkers, not more space for cyclists.

Seth Brundle · 14-06-2020 3:54pm

appledrop wrote: »

I've news for people. The Phoneix Park belongings to everyone. Current restructions on cars parking +gates closed are ridiculous. Its grand for people who live near to walk or cycle but it belongs to all Dubliners + people come from all over Ireland to visit park or zoo.

The park belongs to everyone without a doubt. It should not be dominated by vehicular traffic. People cannot get proper benefit from the park when drivers have more priority over another users.
Why should people be at a disadvantage within the park because some users want free parking on the main avenue?
In what way did the current arrangements stop you visiting the park or the zoo?

appledrop wrote: »

We went to zoo today + took about 40 mins to get out the gate. There was enough parking beside zoo today but that's because very restricted numbers allowed in zoo. Where are people going to park when zoo fully reopens? No parking whatsoever allowed now along the road.

Traffic was heavy. You being there made it even heavier.
Parking was fine though so not sure about your complaint. Are you just annoyed because you sat in your car on a lovely morning whilst others had safe benefit of the park around you? You feel less important that you're used to?

appledrop wrote: »

Fair enough it shouldn't be used as road for commuting daily but you will always need to allow cars access park, zoo, presidents house etc.

What most people are suggesting is that Chesterfield Ave be blocked to prevent through traffic but that cars can still use it. It should not facilitate free all-day parking to the detriment of all other park users.

Stark · 14-06-2020 4:02pm

Traffic everywhere in Dublin seemed to be really busy this weekend. Probably a combination of a few things: nice weather and opportunities to get further afield for people, more shopping opportunities, people switching from public transport to cars. Don't think you can blame the extra traffic solely on the park side gates being closed. I imagine a lot of people who would have gotten the bus/train into the city pre-pandemic chose the car option instead, adding to the congestion. Of course, "the park is for everyone" so can't complain too much when you're stuck for 45 minutes in traffic when "everyone" decides to make use of that.

buffalo · 14-06-2020 4:27pm

KevRossi wrote: »

As an example, there are currently 3 places in the park where a cyclist or pedestrian has a right of way over a car

Where are these places?

magicbastarder · 14-06-2020 6:46pm

appledrop wrote: »

I've news for people. The Phoneix Park belongings to everyone.

no one is arguing that. but those people weren't all heading to the zoo; the zoo wouldn't have a capacity to take every car heading through the park.

having a queue of traffic 4km long moving at walking pace through the park is clearly unsustainable. and i've seen claims that most cars had a single occupant in them anyway.
probably people heading in to the city centre not willing to take public transport - random calculation; the average occupancy of the cars was 1.5, and each car was taking up 8m of space (i.e. roughly two car lengths), that's a little shy of 800 people travelling in either direction. or, if you're talking shifting bodies through the park, 7 double decker buses worth.

Birdie Num Num · 14-06-2020 7:52pm

KevRossi wrote: »

The numbers speak for themselves; there has been a huge uptake in people using it since the restrictions for cars were introduced, so the OPW needs to consider that in developing the park in the future.

I really doubt this is the case. The restrictions due to covid 19 and ongoing restrictions are the reason why more people are out in parks in general coupled with the exceptional good weather. The same reason why there are lots more people jogging, cycling, walking on canal towpaths, on the footpaths and roadsides around the country. With workplaces, schools, colleges, gyms, sports clubs, pubs etc. all closed, people have time on their hands and are getting outside.

One thing that I find a tad annoying about this call for full closure to through traffic is that a large cohort of people looking for same are not regular or year round users of the Park. No suggestion poster that you fall into this bracket but I know some that are very vocal and definitely do.

MojoMaker · 15-06-2020 10:17am

Are you actually serious?

The people calling for closure to motorised through-traffic are *exactly* the year-round users of the park who are fed up with it being a giant carpark where the motor vehicle is king over all others forms of life in the park.

Pinch Flat · 15-06-2020 11:34am

I think we have to accept that the Phoenix park is a throughout fare to the city. The park could be improved by introducing traffic calming and pedestrian crossings- as pointed out earlier There's not much for the pedestrian or cyclist in terms of safe crossings.

Vehicular speeds need to be curtailed as well. I was overtaken driving to the city on Friday night- a road witg a continuous white and info I'm coming traffic. This is not uncommon. Average speed cameras would help curtail this and failing this some decent speed ramps that could double ad pedestrian crossing areas.

9Crimes · 15-06-2020 11:56am

I would love to see a toll on cars commuting through the park - Reg readers at either end of Chesterfield avenue and if car spends less than 15/20mins in the park, its commuting through and pays a €5 toll.
Combine this with a shuttle service around the park (and to/from Hueston) and Dublin Bus using the park as a QBC for Carpenterstown, Blanch, and Castleknock to city centre and you would solve a lot (not all I admit) of problems.

The park has been transformed by the reduced traffic and I will need counselling if this situation is reversed.

Grassey · 15-06-2020 12:02pm

9Crimes wrote: »

I would love to see a toll on cars commuting through the park - Reg readers at either end of Chesterfield avenue and if car spends less than 15/20mins in the park, its commuting through and pays a €5 toll.

And weren't the times this weekend >45 mins to traverse the park? So in essence everyone can be in a traffic jam for free, or park all day for free...

Chips Lovell · 15-06-2020 12:20pm

Pinch Flat wrote: »

I think we have to accept that the Phoenix park is a throughout fare to the city.

I don't think we have to really. There are alternative routes into the city. They've been closing a section Chesterfield Avenue at weekends for years now. They should just make that permanent.

Seth Brundle · 15-06-2020 12:29pm

The city cannot cope with the volume of cars trying to get in. People need to use the alternatives and the best way is to improve their access into the city and to dis-incentivise using a car.
So facilitating cars to use the park is a step backwards.

magicbastarder · 15-06-2020 12:32pm

there's a major issue at the moment in that the government instructions is to only use PT if you don't have an alternative.

Pinch Flat · 15-06-2020 12:51pm

Chips Lovell wrote: »

I don't think we have to really. There are alternative routes into the city. They've been closing a section Chesterfield Avenue at weekends for years now. They should just make that permanent.

Ah yeah look preaching to the converted. Been cycling through there for years on my way to work. Navan road and chapelizod are already serious bottle necks funelling more cars in there will just make it worse . People may re evaluate their use of the car from castleknock to central Dublin and realise a 30 minute hop on a bike is more patalable. You also have to accept that people will drive no matter what.

Pinch Flat · 15-06-2020 12:52pm

Chips Lovell wrote: »

I don't think we have to really. There are alternative routes into the city. They've been closing a section Chesterfield Avenue at weekends for years now. They should just make that permanent.

Ah yeah look preaching to the converted. Been cycling through there for years on my way to work. Navan road and chapelizod are already serious bottle necks funelling more cars in there will just make it worse . People may re evaluate their use of the car from castleknock to central Dublin and realise a 30 minute hop on a bike is more patalable. You also have to accept that people will drive no matter what. Maybe routing the 37 / 39 though there could help - an express service from west Dublin to central Dublin.

Spanish Eyes · 15-06-2020 1:02pm

It seems that the OPW plans to keep traffic through the park, so I've often wondered why car traffic is not funnelled up North Road instead of Chesterfield Avenue.

Achieves the same thing, allows cars from Castleknock to Parkgate and vice versa but keeps the main Avenue car free.

irlirishkev · 15-06-2020 2:25pm

Just back from the park myself. Queue of cars from the Castleknock Gate, back to just beyond the first roundabout, and building steadily, this was about 1.30pm.

Side roads were still nice and quiet though.

Squashed squirrel on Chesterfield avenue

Also, apols to the cyclist I nearly collided with at the Furry Glen if you're on here. My bad.

magicbastarder · 15-06-2020 2:27pm

it was a grey squirrel, probably deserved it.

Truthvader · 15-06-2020 2:30pm

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Ah yeah look preaching to the converted. Been cycling through there for years on my way to work. Navan road and chapelizod are already serious bottle necks funelling more cars in there will just make it worse . People may re evaluate their use of the car from castleknock to central Dublin and realise a 30 minute hop on a bike is more patalable. You also have to accept that people will drive no matter what. Maybe routing the 37 / 39 though there could help - an express service from west Dublin to central Dublin.

When Winter comes people will indeed re-evaluate a "30 minute hop on a bike" but not in the way you think

Pinch Flat · 15-06-2020 2:36pm

Truthvader wrote: »

When Winter comes people will indeed re-evaluate a "30 minute hop on a bike" but not in the way you think

how come? We've milder winters and drier weather than cities where cycling is more prevalent.

Truthvader · 15-06-2020 2:44pm

Pinch Flat wrote: »

how come? We've milder winters and drier weather than cities where cycling is more prevalent.

Because its cold and wet and windy.

Anyway your all gung ho - so enjoy yourself. I'll be in my warm car listening to the radio

McGrath5 · 15-06-2020 3:01pm

Truthvader wrote: »

Because its cold and wet and windy.

Anyway your all gung ho - so enjoy yourself. I'll be in my warm car listening to the radio

Been further radicalized by Newstalk

Pinch Flat · 15-06-2020 3:11pm

Truthvader wrote: »

Because its cold and wet and windy.

Anyway your all gung ho - so enjoy yourself. I'll be in my warm car listening to the radio

Fair play. I could as well. But it makes more sense for me to travel 30 minutes by bike to work rather than 1.5 hours to cover the 13 km to work by car. I suspect private car use is going to rise exponentially post-Covid for the foreseeable, so enjoy that time in the car. I'll be sticking to the bike. Still the same 30 minutes door to door.

cgcsb · 15-06-2020 3:18pm

Shameful display in the park on Sunday, cars parked on the grass on the side roads and bumper to bumper traffic on chesterfield avenue.

Compared to a few weeks ago the value of the park as a facility is now severely reduced. How hard would it be to just block through traffic at the Phoenix Park Monument roundabout.

Dr_Colossus · 15-06-2020 3:31pm

Truthvader wrote: »

Because its cold and wet and windy.

Anyway your all gung ho - so enjoy yourself. I'll be in my warm car listening to the radio

Regardless of how cold and wet the weather if you pedal hard enough you'll also be warm.

I cycled through the park year round and it's one aspect of WFH that I miss especially having got through the wet winter to then miss out on all the fine weather of late.

The car parks along Chesterfield Ave now being the cycle lanes sound like a great improvement and hopefully that will be made permanent. Now if only OPW could resurface the actual cycle lanes in and out of the park at Park Gate St it might get a few more onto two wheels.

beggars_bush · 15-06-2020 3:37pm

Truthvader wrote: »

Because its cold and wet and windy.

Anyway your all gung ho - so enjoy yourself. I'll be in my warm car listening to the radio

They should toll cars for driving through the park

cython · 15-06-2020 4:36pm

beggars_bush wrote: »

They should toll cars for driving through the park

And use the proceeds to build cycling infrastructure! :pac:

07Lapierre · 15-06-2020 5:20pm

Truthvader wrote: »

When Winter comes people will indeed re-evaluate a "30 minute hop on a bike" but not in the way you think

Lazy sods!

Birdie Num Num · 15-06-2020 5:25pm

MojoMaker wrote: »

Are you actually serious?

The people calling for closure to motorised through-traffic are *exactly* the year-round users of the park who are fed up with it being a giant carpark where the motor vehicle is king over all others forms of life in the park.

Cars parked is a very different issue to the Park being used / closed as a through road. Many cyclists are in fact culprits for parking up for the working day and cycling further into the city.

Birdie Num Num · 15-06-2020 5:32pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Shameful display in the park on Sunday, cars parked on the grass on the side roads and bumper to bumper traffic on chesterfield avenue.

Compared to a few weeks ago the value of the park as a facility is now severely reduced. How hard would it be to just block through traffic at the Phoenix Park Monument roundabout.

It is closed every summer for weekends for the last few years and it works very well and there are no complaints. The closure is from Mountjoy to Phoenix. This year there have been restrictions as a result of a pandemic and so only the two main gates (Castleknock & Park Gate St.) have remained open. With all other gates closed they could hardly close off the main gates too. It’s not feasible to do all year round or during midweek with commuting traffic.

Visitors parking up on grass areas is a disgrace. That said, the current restrictions have also seen the likes of the Papal cross carpark closed until 10am in the morning so early visitors that might ordinarily park there are parking up on the grass. The rangers were stickering cars In that vicinity on Saturday morning. Seems at odds with cars parked up on grass on previous occasions and in other locations.

cgcsb · 15-06-2020 5:39pm

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

It is closed every summer for weekends for the last few years and it works very well and there are no complaints. The closure is from Mountjoy to Phoenix. This year there have been restrictions as a result of a pandemic and so only the two main gates (Castleknock & Park Gate St.) have remained open. With all other gates closed they could hardly close off the main gates too. It’s not feasible to do all year round or during midweek with commuting traffic.

Why is it not feasible? Having the park completely closed to cars worked pretty well during lockdown with plenty of space for people to enjoy. The park was busy with people instead of cars and the deer weren't afraid to roam to any part.

beauf · 15-06-2020 5:41pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

It seems that the OPW plans to keep traffic through the park, so I've often wondered why car traffic is not funnelled up North Road instead of Chesterfield Avenue.

Achieves the same thing, allows cars from Castleknock to Parkgate and vice versa but keeps the main Avenue car free.

Likewise I thought it odd closing the ave only to route traffic through the upper glen rd and across acres rd. you end up doing more driving and through the more scenic areas. North road only would make more sense.

Theres two issues, the through traffic. But also most people drive to the park, even those who aren't commuting through it. There are almost no car parks. Every other park you drive to, park in the car park then enjoy a traffic free park.

Almost everything in the park, has an entrance close to the perimeter, like visitor centre and famleigh. instead they route the traffic jam though the park.

Hurrache · 15-06-2020 5:41pm

It was never completely closed to cars during the lockdown was it?

Stark · 15-06-2020 5:44pm

Hurrache wrote: »

It was never completely closed to cars during the lockdown was it?

Chesterfield Avenue was open for essential workers. They had Gardaí at each end checking purpose of journey. In practice this meant the place was practically car free. You could cycle/ jog down Chesterfield Avenue and a car would pass you every couple of minutes as opposed to every couple of seconds.

beauf · 15-06-2020 5:46pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Why is it not feasible? Having the park completely closed to cars worked pretty well during lockdown with plenty of space for people to enjoy. The park was busy with people instead of cars and the deer weren't afraid to roam to any part.

There was no traffic anywhere. you could probably cycle down the M50 during the start of the lock down.

Birdie Num Num · 15-06-2020 5:48pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Why is it not feasible? Having the park completely closed to cars worked pretty well during lockdown with plenty of space for people to enjoy. The park was busy with people instead of cars and the deer weren't afraid to roam to any part.

Already covered this in a previous post in the thread.

beauf · 15-06-2020 5:48pm

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

...Parking up on grass areas is a disgrace.

Which is an indication of how many access the park by car to use the park for recreation.

I don't care what they do with it. There are other parks easier to get to.

beauf · 15-06-2020 5:53pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Shameful display in the park on Sunday, cars parked on the grass on the side roads and bumper to bumper traffic on chesterfield avenue.

Compared to a few weeks ago the value of the park as a facility is now severely reduced. How hard would it be to just block through traffic at the Phoenix Park Monument roundabout.

Those are two entirely different issues.

Which shows that blocking through traffic won't solve the parking issue, especially not at weekends.

If they want to stop parking, anywhere clamp them. If you want people to access the park by car provide a proper car park. If you want it to be primarily for locals, ban all cars.

beauf · 15-06-2020 5:54pm

Truthvader wrote: »

Because its cold and wet and windy.

Anyway your all gung ho - so enjoy yourself. I'll be in my warm car listening to the radio

The main is not rain or cold. Its the wind. But there are eBikes and Scooters (if they make them legal) if thats too much.

Bicycles, Phoenix Park and traffic

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