Bicycles, Phoenix Park and traffic

KevRossi · 16-05-2020 8:09pm

If you built a car park on the land to the S of the new Zoo car park you would fit in all the cars parked along Chesterfield Ave from the Zoo to the Aras roundabout.

There are 300 cars in the Zoo car park. Space available is bigger than that, and Zoo car park is a bit inefficient.

1.5 Km at 6.6m per car length* = 250 cars parked on either side, or a total of 500.

* Yes, cars measure 4.4m or so, but they park very inefficiently along there.

beauf · 16-05-2020 9:01pm

So do people think the cycling infrastructure in the park has improved over the past decade in any meaningful way. That would suggest the opw will make these changes.

I guess the hire bikes is great for tourists.

Seth Brundle · 16-05-2020 9:03pm

KevRossi wrote: »

I think Mon-Fri they should leave Chesterfield open to traffic, restrict parking to the Zoo and Papal Cross, make another parking if needed for commuters. It's an established commuter route/carpark and until such time as we get a decent public transport into the city it will have to stay.

Public transport will never improve as long as we still hold onto the archaic mindset that we need a car within the city centre

beauf · 16-05-2020 9:23pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Public transport will never improve as long as we still hold onto the archaic mindset that we need a car within the city centre

I switched back to the car last year and didn't renew my annual ticket. I just couldn't make all my daily journeys quick enough on public transport. I keep switching back and forth every couple of years.

buffalo · 17-05-2020 8:53am

beauf wrote: »

No family outing with young and old who need transport to get to the park. No carrying a buggy and kids bike. No picnic hamper and other gear. No stopping in the way home for a walk or jog or call into a relative in Mary's. No people with a family pass for the zoo who go through it to get to the zoo regularly or pop in for short visit on the way too and from somewhere. Or just to drive an elderly person on a scenic drive around the park and sit in the car an get an ice cream. Numerous family cycling events or scouting events where you need bikes for all ages with you. Lots of things like that.

I think you're missing the nuance of banning through traffic. People can still get to the Park, but it's not a highway for commuters and those going from Castleknock into town. So your plaintive cry for mercy for the young and old is unnecessary.

beauf · 17-05-2020 10:22am

buffalo wrote: »

I think you're missing the nuance of banning through traffic. People can still get to the Park, but it's not a highway for commuters and those going from Castleknock into town. So your plaintive cry for mercy for the young and old is unnecessary.

The park takes something like a quarter of the traffic crossing the M50 bridge daily.

Only a tiny % of that traffic isncoming from Castleknock. There simply isn't enough population in it to create that level of traffic. Look at the traffic on the M3 and other routes. That's where the bulk of it is coming from.

People hear don't seem remember that last time this road was closed. They don't remember the traffic dispersion or how busy or not the park itself was otherwise. Which suggest the majority of people on the thread didnt use it.

Looking at the activity in parks during the lockdown is not representative of normal activity. Also the opw have a terrible record of delivering on cycling infrastructure in the park.

But let's forget about this. No reason not to trial it for six months. And the lockdown is the best time to get it accepted. That is true for all cycling changes across the city and country

magicbastarder · 17-05-2020 10:27am

you would think that it'd be possible to model the typical start and end points of rush hour journeys through the park; google and a couple of other organisations would have that.

for example, one obvious question is what percentage of rush hour traffic going through the park terminates in the city centre (morning rush hour, obviously).

people coming into the city centre from the likes of clonee, dunboyne, etc., would have the train as an option (unless the train wasn't rammed at rush hour, as it has been until a couple of months ago).

Hurrache · 17-05-2020 12:43pm

beauf wrote: »

The park takes something like a quarter of the traffic crossing the M50 bridge daily.

Where did that figure come from? And if it's true, all the more reason to restrict it.

beauf · 17-05-2020 1:23pm

This thread is about the 10th one on the park and cycling. Came up in one of them.

magicbastarder · 17-05-2020 1:24pm

what if you're a junior barrister living on auburn avenue and you work in the four courts - what public transport options are there? let's say for the sake of argument that you can't cycle in your gown and wig.
i just don't understand the argument that allowing this person to drive the 6km or so to work is OK, but an occasional variant of the 37 should not be able/allowed to take the same route?

beauf · 17-05-2020 1:49pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

what if you're a junior barrister living on auburn avenue and you work in the four courts - what public transport options are there? let's say for the sake of argument that you can't cycle in your gown and wig.
i just don't understand the argument that allowing this person to drive the 6km or so to work is OK, but an occasional variant of the 37 should not be able/allowed to take the same route?

That's really a question for the opw.

There is another side to that you could get off the 37 and get a shuttle bus in the park then walk from the other end or get a Luas (though you are unlikely to be able to get on one. )

But it should all be the same ticket. Not this fragmented mess we have today.

The other side this is a perfect journey for a bike, ebike or scooter. But good luck with secure parking of that in the city centre. And the quays is awful at least out of town.

So really the park is only one part of that puzzle. How long are we waiting for some action on the quays for cyclists.

LeinsterDub · 17-05-2020 1:56pm

beauf wrote: »

This thread is about the 10th one on the park and cycling. Came up in one of them.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/m50-busiest-as-traffic-volume-up-6-on-national-roads-875223.html
There is no way 100000 cars use the Phoenix Park every day

beauf · 17-05-2020 2:13pm

Who cares it will soon be 0 end of problem.

Traffic
Notwithstanding recent traffic management measures, the Park continues to be used as a primary means
of access to the city from the west and the large volumes of traffic (10 million car journeys per year)
significantly diminish the character of the Park as a historic landscape and reduce the enjoyment of other
Park users. This issue arises from shortcomings in the strategic transportation network for Dublin and is
emphasised in the 2006 Phoenix Park Transportation Study in which three areas of concern were highlighted:

General traffic levels which are such as to cause extreme pressure in various areas of the Park.

The need for a comprehensive parking policy, which would restrict commuter parking, and provide for
visitor needs.

The need to increase public transport access to the Park.

Mercian Pro · 17-05-2020 2:54pm

Incredible numbers of cyclists and walkers/joggers in the Park this morning. Hard to believe even half of them live within 5k but great to see it so well used. A fair bit of confusion over the new "social distancing" measures. They are due to commence tomorrow but a lot of people have pre-empted them with most cyclists now on the road inside of thousands of traffic cones and quite a few walkers already on the bike paths. Then there was this pair:

I don't think I have seen so many bikes since the Ring of Kerry! Road bikes, TT bikes, fixies, Dublin bikes, kiddie bikes, striders and even one tandem. Pride of place went to one mature couple who insisted on riding on the footpath over near St Marys - old habits die hard.

LeinsterDub · 17-05-2020 3:07pm

beauf wrote: »

Who cares it will soon be 0 end of problem.

Except it won't. Are you willfully ignoring the proposal or just not able to understand it?
That quote suggests 27,000 cars use the Phoenix Park and doesn't clarify if they are visitor of passing through daily. A fair cry from your alleged 100k

LeinsterDub · 17-05-2020 3:12pm

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Incredible numbers of cyclists and walkers/joggers in the Park this morning. Hard to believe even half of them live within 5k but great to see it so well used. .

5k includes from J5 to J9 of the M50 from the coast to Clonsilla it's a massive catchment

Stark · 17-05-2020 4:56pm

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Incredible numbers of cyclists and walkers/joggers in the Park this morning. Hard to believe even half of them live within 5k but great to see it so well used. A fair bit of confusion over the new "social distancing" measures. They are due to commence tomorrow but a lot of people have pre-empted them with most cyclists now on the road inside of thousands of traffic cones and quite a few walkers already on the bike paths.
..

I don't think I have seen so many bikes since the Ring of Kerry! Road bikes, TT bikes, fixies, Dublin bikes, kiddie bikes, striders and even one tandem. Pride of place went to one mature couple who insisted on riding on the footpath over near St Marys - old habits die hard.

Back from my second spin there today. Legs were wrecked and ass was sore (I purposely went for the tracksuit pants and t-shirt instead of the lycra as I wanted to be part of showing how "normal" an activity it was) but just had to make the most of it before it returns to **** tomorrow. Really was incredible to see so much use being made of it by everyone. Everyone seemed in such a good mood as well. Like all the angry tension from the past few weeks against people exercising had completely lifted. Probably return when everyone's forced back to jostling with each other in their 1.5m wide lanes while the traffic enjoys the rest of the space.

I think I may even force myself out again in an hour or two (giving in to the lycra for my poor ass this time) to enjoy the last of it before it's gone.

Weepsie · 17-05-2020 5:52pm

beauf wrote: »

. And the quays is awful at least out of town.

So really the park is only one part of that puzzle. How long are we waiting for some action on the quays for cyclists.

Quays is partly awful because of people coming from and going to the park (not exclusively), but restrict as much private traffic as possibly going to city centre and cycling etc becomes a lot more pleasant.

bazermc · 17-05-2020 6:29pm

Stark wrote: »

Back from my second spin there today. Legs were wrecked and ass was sore (I purposely went for the tracksuit pants and t-shirt instead of the lycra as I wanted to be part of showing how "normal" an activity it was) but just had to make the most of it before it returns to **** tomorrow. Really was incredible to see so much use being made of it by everyone. Everyone seemed in such a good mood as well. Like all the angry tension from the past few weeks against people exercising had completely lifted. Probably return when everyone's forced back to jostling with each other in their 1.5m wide lanes while the traffic enjoys the rest of the space.

I think I may even force myself out again in an hour or two (giving in to the lycra for my poor ass this time) to enjoy the last of it before it's gone.

Stop the lights. Two spins in the one day. I haven’t been able to do that or other certain things more than once In a day since I can’t remember when.

Stark · 17-05-2020 6:34pm

bazermc wrote: »

Stop the lights. Two spins in the one day. I haven’t been able to do that or other certain things more than once In a day since I can’t remember when.

Exercise more than once a day has always been allowed here. We're not the UK.

beauf · 17-05-2020 7:24pm

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Incredible numbers of cyclists and walkers/joggers in the Park this morning. Hard to believe even half of them live within 5k but great to see it so well used. A fair bit of confusion over the new "social distancing" measures. They are due to commence tomorrow but a lot of people have pre-empted them with most cyclists now on the road inside of thousands of traffic cones and quite a few walkers already on the bike paths. Then there were this pair:

....

I don't think I have seen so many bikes since the Ring of Kerry! Road bikes, TT bikes, fixies, Dublin bikes, kiddie bikes, striders and even one tandem. Pride of place went to one mature couple who insisted on riding on the footpath over near St Marys - old habits die hard.

A few people said to me it was busy this morning. We did a spin about 6 pm and its was extremely quiet for a Sunday afternoon. So if you are looking for a quieter time, maybe go later. We had the cycle lanes to ourselves, apart from one solitary jogger. Always one. Annoyingly even though the roads were quiet on the way to and from the park, we still had a couple of close passes. Old habits die hard it seems.

I see Famleigh is extending its opening hours which will be great for the summer.

beauf · 17-05-2020 7:31pm

Weepsie wrote: »

Quays is partly awful because of people coming from and going to the park (not exclusively), but restrict as much private traffic as possibly going to city centre and cycling etc becomes a lot more pleasant.

That what I was saying.

You really have to take the lane and keep the speed up going from south quays, across the bridge and into the park. Heading into town is a doddle.

beauf · 17-05-2020 7:34pm

Stark wrote: »

Exercise more than once a day has always been allowed here. We're not the UK.

I assume he meant hes not doing club cycles or long spins a decent radius from home. Not that he hasn't been out.

Since the lock down its been mostly great weather, its been great to be able to get out so much. Hard to find routes that aren't full of walkers though.

Mercian Pro · 19-05-2020 3:50pm

Up for a few circuits around the perimeter this morning and, traffic wise, it's much the same as it was for the last few weeks. The side gates are all still closed so there is no real reason for cars to be on the perimeter roads. The only car park that seems to be open is the one at the visitor centre at Ashtown Castle and that was about half-full during the cocooners' period in the walled garden. Had a nice coffee and scone there and noticed the kiosk near the zoo was also open. Very few cars on the main avenue so I assume the Gardaí are still manning the Castlenock and City entrances.
Most cyclists I saw were solo but there were a few in groups of 2 or 3.

beauf · 19-05-2020 4:10pm

Cool I'll take a spin down after work.

Hurrache · 19-05-2020 4:29pm

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Up for a few circuits around the perimeter this morning and, traffic wise, it's much the same as it was for the last few weeks. The side gates are all still closed so there is no real reason for cars to be on the perimeter roads. The only car park that seems to be open is the one at the visitor centre at Ashtown Castle and that was about half-full during the cocooners' period in the walled garden. Had a nice coffee and scone there and noticed the kiosk near the zoo was also open. Very few cars on the main avenue so I assume the Gardaí are still manning the Castlenock and City entrances.
Most cyclists I saw were solo but there were a few in groups of 2 or 3.

Yeah, OPW have kept things as is

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https://twitter.com/phoenixparkopw/status/1262676005212356608

Mercian Pro · 19-05-2020 4:52pm

That's pretty much the same as what was announced last week (post #30) but with a better spin put on the Chesterfield Avenue changes. No mention that the other gates are still due to reopen on 8th June which will have a significant effect on the enjoyment of the Park by both walkers and cyclists. I see the Furze Road rather than the Khyber now has "shared recreation space", which I presume refers to the centre section that has been blocked off for quite a while.

Hurrache · 19-05-2020 4:59pm

I didn't realise the other gates weren't due to open until June, I thought it was this week.

Tenzor07 · 19-05-2020 7:14pm

Took a quick lap of the park there earlier today for the first time in a while...

Have to say it's amazing not to have all the motor vehicles whizzing around the roads, much more peaceful and relaxing!

Also a few families cycling around with young kids on bikes, which just goes to show that people now realise the park has become a safe place.

Loads of people around walking, jogging, cycling etc. It felt like a park for people...

Even the Deer are coming out further to places i've not noticed them before...

I hope the OPW keep the motor traffic low and don't allow the park to go back to being a shortcut for motorists...

MojoMaker · 19-05-2020 8:24pm

No chance though.

magicbastarder · 19-05-2020 10:31pm

https://twitter.com/Paulcorcoran10/status/1262851513141075975

bazermc · 19-05-2020 11:25pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Paulcorcoran10/status/1262851513141075975

I watched that whole video waiting for something and nothing.

19-05-2020 11:28pm

I was at least expecting them to right those cones towards the end my OCD would not have allowed me pass them

I counted 40 odd cars before the video cut out, the highlight was the 4 white ones bunched together in the middle.

Mercian Pro · 20-05-2020 8:50am

From the OPW website:
"Vehicular access to the Phoenix Park remains unchanged and access to the Park is via Castleknock Gate and Park Gate Street only. Any future changes to vehicular access to the Phoenix Park will be made in consultation with An Garda Síochána, Dublin City Council, Fingal County Council and others. Future decisions about vehicles routing through the Phoenix Park are part of the traffic policy of the city and are not made by OPW unilaterally."
I don't think people's quiet enjoyment of the Phoenix Park would feature highly in Garda policies but hopefully most Councillors in Dublin and Fingal would support keeping the perimeter roads car-free.

Hurrache · 20-05-2020 8:52am

magicbastarder wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Paulcorcoran10/status/1262851513141075975

Took me a while to figure out that was yesterday, and not a comparison video of how it used to be.
Has to be from people using the park as they can't all be using it to commute, however the timestamp indicates it rush hour.

https://twitter.com/kevteljeur/status/1262855443715690496

Mercian Pro · 20-05-2020 8:59am

Commuters one and all. At 10.30am yesterday, I could see about 4 cars on a long section of the Avenue with about 30 cars max in the Visitor Centre car park. I suspect the Gardaí at the Parkgate St entrance left or decided to let commuters through.

Hurrache · 20-05-2020 9:05am

Why commute through the park when it would have been faster for them to take the Navan Road, or other alternatives. Stuck in a routine they can't get out of I suppose. Even a cursory glance at google maps would have told them that.

Stark · 20-05-2020 9:24am

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Commuters one and all. At 10.30am yesterday, I could see about 4 cars on a long section of the Avenue with about 30 cars max in the Visitor Centre car park. I suspect the Gardaí at the Parkgate St entrance left or decided to let commuters through.

Or they all just lied at the gate and told the Gardaí they were "going for a walk".

Tenzor07 · 20-05-2020 9:30am

Hurrache wrote: »

Why commute through the park when it would have been faster for them to take the Navan Road, or other alternatives. Stuck in a routine they can't get out of I suppose. Even a cursory glance at google maps would have told them that.

I'm sure they're all within the 5km limit or traveling for "essential" reasons...:rolleyes: (not)

Mercian Pro · 20-05-2020 1:48pm

A couple of Gardaí checking traffic just inside the Castlknock gate this morning around 11.30. The only two cars parked on the road were directly opposite them! Don't know if they turned many back but it was reasonably quiet on the main Avenue. It would be interesting to know if there is a checkpoint at the Parkgate St entrance this evening.

When doing a circuit of the perimeter, I counted about 50 cyclists, 120 walkers/joggers and 3 cars. Ashtown Castle was quiet enough but there were a lot of cars at the Papal Cross.

magicbastarder · 20-05-2020 1:50pm

mod note - i changed the thread title as the discussion had gone a little more wide ranging

Hamsterchops · 20-05-2020 2:53pm

Stark wrote: »

Some good ones (proper sheffield stand type) at the visitor centre.

Sheffield stands for sure, very secure stands.

Stark · 23-05-2020 8:09pm

Cycling there this morning. A lot better than it was pre-pandemic with the hard shoulders of Chesterfield coned off and the side gates closed but nowhere near as nice as it was before May 18th. No sign of the dozens of lesser experienced cyclists and families on bikes who were enjoying the Park last time round, only the usual people who are comfortable cycling in traffic. And the usual coming head to head with motorists taking the racing line on the bendier roads in the Park.

magicbastarder · 23-05-2020 8:27pm

The wind today probably kept a lot of people away.

Tenzor07 · 23-05-2020 8:35pm

Stark wrote: »

No sign of the dozens of lesser experienced cyclists and families on bikes who were enjoying the Park last time round, only the usual people who are comfortable cycling in traffic. And the usual coming head to head with motorists taking the racing line on the bendier roads in the Park.

I hope we haven't seen the end of this mini-increase in people on bicycles, now that the Lockdown is loosening....
If the lines of traffic at my local McDonalds is anything to go by then it may have been a short lived resurgence... But we shall see!

thebourke · 24-05-2020 11:18am

what route can you do through phoenix park..is it just up and down chesterfield avenue?

Mercian Pro · 24-05-2020 1:18pm

thebourke wrote: »

what route can you do through phoenix park..is it just up and down chesterfield avenue?

Absolutely not. Around the perimeter is more attractive, quieter and a lot more sheltered from the wind. That's why it's so important that OPW don't reopen the side gates to cars on the 8th June.

Up walking in the Park for a change and there seemed to be a lot more "serious cyclists" and fewer family groups than last Sunday. Most were riding solo but there were plenty of 2s and 3s as well chatting and drafting well within the 2m zone. Coming back along the Liffey from Chapelizod, there were a good few solo sculls on the water so rowing seems to be gradually returning as well.

bazermc · 24-05-2020 2:49pm

thebourke wrote: »

what route can you do through phoenix park..is it just up and down chesterfield avenue?

Oh there is loads of great cycle routes/loops around the outer area of the park. My favourite one is the Liffey side along by the magazine fort, upper Glenn road area.

Hurrache · 24-05-2020 3:46pm

Looks like the side roads and around by the glen are no longer as pleasant as they once were

https://twitter.com/Jackfire13/status/1264563268103921665?s=19

And cyclists, don't be holding up "traffic" in a 15kph zone
https://twitter.com/theconjob/status/1264551631204605953?s=19

But sense subsequently came their way
https://twitter.com/donna_cooney1/status/1264562314902220800?s=19

Pa ElGrande · 24-05-2020 4:11pm

thebourke wrote: »

what route can you do through phoenix park..is it just up and down chesterfield avenue?

Click on this link for a suggested route.

You can start at Infirmary Road/NCR entrance or the Chesterfield avenue entrance from Conyngham Road.
Make your way through the centre of the park along Chesterfield avenue.
Turn left onto Ordnance survey road and follow on through into Upper Glen Road, once at the Chapelizod entrance turn left, then right on to Military road and when you get to the the magazine fort you can go straight ahead onto Wellington road towards the monument then through the roundabout onto the North Road and repeat the outer loop once more. That's about 20 KM, would take about an hour to complete. You can break it off anytime you want and head home.

Bicycles, Phoenix Park and traffic

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