Extreme noise level - creche

Fighting Tao · 14-05-2018 10:18pm

denismc wrote: »

There must be some planning restrictions that prevent commercial units being used adjacent to private accommodation. I would talk to the creche operators first and explain the situation.
If they aren't being helpful then contact your local council, it seems odd that they are operating a creche in a residential building, there are restrictions on changing a residential unit to a commercial one.

From citizens advice website:
For example, you will need planning permission if you propose to:

Convert your garage into a workshop for business use

Establish a creche

Open a bed and breakfast with more than 4 guest bedrooms

The creche would not be a residential unit. It would be a commercial unit. Many residential complexes have commercial units such as a Spar shop. Some were cleverly built with purposed creches. Great for people living in the area with kids.

Sleeper12 · 14-05-2018 10:20pm

denismc wrote:

There must be some planning restrictions that prevent commercial units being used adjacent to private accommodation. I would talk to the creche operators first and explain the situation. If they aren't being helpful then contact your local council, it seems odd that they are operating a creche in a residential building, there are restrictions on changing a residential unit to a commercial one.

The creche has full planning permission. They are doing nothing wrong. Most creches are in residential buildings with full planning and regulations. Council can't remove planning permission.

OP needs to look at triple glazing or sound proof windows.

iamwhoiam · 14-05-2018 10:37pm

khaldrogo wrote: »

The noise level. I thought it was fairly well explained that this was the issue and reason for the post. Did you read the OP?

And did you read the thread ? I apologised for misunderstanding the OP . I took it the kids were only out between 8:30 snd 9:00 .

the_syco · 14-05-2018 11:46pm

Yurple wrote: »

They see who can shout the loudest, they chase them and make them run etc... it is absolutely crazy.

I work a lot of very late shifts and full night shifts. I just cannot sleep. Window vents completely shut, double layered ear plugs, nothing works. The noise level is too high.

Have you considered white noise?

Get some music that you enjoy, and have that playing in the background. For example; bach, iron maiden, or as Eric Cartman has said; rap. If it has offensive material, that's unfortunate, but be careful, as someone may complain saying it's anti-social.

GreeBo · 15-05-2018 9:45am

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I could think of worst sounds than children playing

I can think of worse deaths than gassing.

15-05-2018 10:00am

I would wager that all the people saying "tough luck" to the op are parents themselves. It's amazing how parents are blind to the disruption and downright annoyance kids can cause while they are just "doing what kids do".

We don't live in a 9-5 world anymore, people work nights, they work shift and they work from home. A crèche should not be build in a complex like this as it is guaranteed to cause disruption.

iamwhoiam · 15-05-2018 10:07am

I paid attention yesterday and today bringing a child to creche . The creche yard is part of an apartment complex . Its not in a courtyard but is the ground floor of a three story block
The kids were in the yard with three teachers . The teachers were calm and quiet and the kids were playing with outdoor toys . They calmly stopped any mad running or screaming and guided the kids to the toys or playhouse
I see no reason whatsoever why any creche carer would encourage screaming and shouting . It shows a complete lack of awareness on the workers side . Kids do not need encouragement to scream .

Glass fused light · 15-05-2018 10:15am

Wells Obedient Jugular wrote: »

I would wager that all the people saying "tough luck" to the op are parents themselves. It's amazing how parents are blind to the disruption and downright annoyance kids can cause while they are just "doing what kids do".

We don't live in a 9-5 world anymore, people work nights, they work shift and they work from home. A crèche should not be build in a complex like this as it is guaranteed to cause disruption.

People are forgetting that most little kids only go to crèche because most of their their parents work 9-5. The OP could have just as easly ended up in a block with stay at home children doing what kids do.

Most blocks with commercial units have had the permission as part of the original application. If the local council are focused on density for good land use, any purchaser should examine the complex with an eye as to where the commercial services will end up.

meeeeh · 15-05-2018 10:17am

Wells Obedient Jugular wrote: »

I would wager that all the people saying "tough luck" to the op are parents themselves. It's amazing how parents are blind to the disruption and downright annoyance kids can cause while they are just "doing what kids do".

If you want to have proper planning and neighborhoods that function a bit better than just places where people go to sleep then you need proper community services. That involves schools, creches, shops, sports clubs, playgrounds and similar. I have no idea how op's neighborhood was designed and it's quite likely that the cheapest option was picked without proper consideration for noise and no proper sound proofing of the buildings. Kids can cause annoyance, so do farmers with their tractors, people mowing the lawn and so on. it's part of living in the community and unless kids are actively encouraged to scream (which is crazy) noise is part of life during the day hours. That being said, I am pretty sure anyone checking plans would know creche is planned for the neighborhood (most likely the building was part of planning conditions). I can't see what can be done except trying to talk to creche. Very often noise management is done by community, I know of estate where moving grass is permitted only on Wednesday afternoons. But you can't expect creche will keep kids inside because someone has trouble sleeping through the day.

Red Alert · 15-05-2018 10:21am

Megaphone out the window, and "SHUT UP!"

Before going to see them though, start keeping a detailed log either on paper or electronically and bring it with you. It'll be a record of specific nuisances and having it with you will show them you're serious about making them sort the problem out.

Hurrache · 15-05-2018 10:24am

Wells Obedient Jugular wrote: »

It's amazing how parents are blind to the disruption and downright annoyance kids can cause while they are just "doing what kids do".

We don't live in a 9-5 world anymore, people work nights, they work shift and they work from home. A crèche should not be build in a complex like this as it is guaranteed to cause disruption.

Parents weren't born parents.

And a location within a residential area is a perfect place for a creche.

15-05-2018 11:08am

meeeeh wrote: »

If you want to have proper planning and neighborhoods that function a bit better than just places where people go to sleep then you need proper community services. That involves schools, creches, shops, sports clubs, playgrounds and similar.

This is why people live in rural areas to get away from all these noises and keep shops, schools etc at a distance. In other words they want places where you just sleep and do things in your own home. I have spent most of my life living in a rural area and smaller number of years living in an estate and its infuriating getting woken up at 9 or 10am on Saturday or sunday morning by kids screaming when you are sleeping in after a weeks work (and possibly a feed of pints the night before) or someone cutting grass early etc never mind the other annoyances. For someone like the op its even worse as its a daily thing. This is especially bad in summer if you want to open a window. I couldn't imagine settling down anywhere but back in a countryside location as its just so much better having your own space at a reasonable distance from other houses and no where near schools etc.

I dont think creches or schools should be in or very close to houses or apartments as they are guaranteed to be a nuisance for residents.

I have never been woken by a tractor either despite living on a farm surrounded by farms.

mrslancaster · 15-05-2018 12:42pm

Hurrache wrote: »

And a location within a residential area is a perfect place for a creche.

Unless you happen to live next door or above one - they are very noisy places and the OP's issue can't really be compared to a primary school which is very quiet for most of the day. Schools are noisy at lunchtime but that's only for a short time and they are closed for weeks during summer holidays, Christmas, Easter etc.

Creches are open all year round.

There's no question that creches are needed, but maybe the planners should think a bit about the impact on local residents.

McTigs · 15-05-2018 1:13pm

Wells Obedient Jugular wrote: »

I dont think creches or schools should be in or very close to houses or apartments as they are guaranteed to be a nuisance for residents.

But it's much easier for kids to walk to school if it's near their house... cuts back on the nonsense of having to be given a lift

GreeBo · 15-05-2018 1:33pm

McTigs wrote: »

But it's much easier for kids to walk to school if it's near their house... cuts back on the nonsense of having to be given a lift

They can be 1KM away and be far enough that noise isnt an issue yet near enough to walk.

The issue is when they are literally next door to residential areas.

Glass fused light · 15-05-2018 2:03pm

GreeBo wrote: »

They can be 1KM away and be far enough that noise isnt an issue yet near enough to walk.

The issue is when they are literally next door to residential areas.

Can you give a rough description of how this would be applied in the Dublin area?

GreeBo · 15-05-2018 2:22pm

Glass fused light wrote: »

Can you give a rough description of how this would be applied in the Dublin area?

Find an area thats not right next to a dense residential area?
Put them beside primary/secondary schools/Colleges for example, you might not get 1KM, but you will get better than a courtyard.

I'm sure you could put one in UCD and it wouldnt impact anyone.

Dial Hard · 15-05-2018 2:32pm

GreeBo wrote:

Find an area thats not right next to a dense residential area?

Cause Dublin is absolutely laced with greenfield sites lying idle.

Honest to God, there's some amount of misanthropists in this thread, even for Boards.

I've no kids, nor do I particularly like them but even I accept that the best place for creches and schools is within the community, not in some faraway gulag lest they offend the sensibilities of some miserable cranks.

listermint · 15-05-2018 3:21pm

Im going to be a bit mean here OP but quite frankly the planning laws cannot ever take into play someone doing Shift Work, Its your choice to do shift work just like it was your choice to live in an apartment complex with a courtyard at the centre.

Its very good planning to put Creche facilities where people live as the majority are out to work during the day and dont have to travel with a car to drop kids off. from traffic management and ease of access its pretty ideal.

Then there is folks like yourself, like it or loath it you are in the minority. So i would suggest 1 of 3 options.

Find a job with normal hours (its an excellent option because shift work will drive you demented believe me i did it for a year and it actually physically made me worse off)

Use better earplugs (excellent option because they actually work, not the crappy foam ones)

Move

__________________

notice none of the options involve you impacting the creche nor the planning as frankly its built were it should be.

mrslancaster · 15-05-2018 3:25pm

Dial Hard wrote: »

Cause Dublin is absolutely laced with greenfield sites lying idle.

Honest to God, there's some amount of misanthropists in this thread, even for Boards.

I've no kids, nor do I particularly like them but even I accept that the best place for creches and schools is within the community, not in some faraway gulag lest they offend the sensibilities of some miserable cranks.

No one said they should be in some faraway gulag..

There's a big difference between putting a crèche in a semi-detached house or the ground floor in an apartment block and a crèche that could be sited on the grounds of a primary school or a shopping centre which are usually on large sites and well situated in the local community.

It's not unreasonable to think about the impact on the neighbours in the other semi or in the apartments.

meeeeh · 15-05-2018 3:34pm

mrslancaster wrote: »

No one said they should be in some faraway gulag..

There's a big difference between putting a crèche in a semi-detached house or the ground floor in an apartment block and a crèche that could be sited on the grounds of a primary school or a shopping centre which are usually on large sites and well situated in the local community.

It's not unreasonable to think about the impact on the neighbours in the other semi or in the apartments.

Nobody is talking about a creche on the ground floor of apartment building or in semi-d. Where did you get that from?

Hurrache · 15-05-2018 3:35pm

mrslancaster wrote: »

Unless you happen to live next door or above one -

I lived close enough to hear them, and a primary school. The one I could hear was attached to a semi-d, with planning permission.

The one my kids go to has a row of semi-d houses behind it. The purpose built creche was there before the houses. I was collecting the kids one afternoon one summer, after lunch, and they were outside playing. The person in the house behind shouted out from her house at the kids to shut up. They laughed, I laughed, and the person was labelled a crank by the employees and neighbours.

Glass fused light · 15-05-2018 3:51pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Find an area thats not right next to a dense residential area?
Put them beside primary/secondary schools/Colleges for example, you might not get 1KM, but you will get better than a courtyard.

I'm sure you could put one in UCD and it wouldnt impact anyone.

Ok who is going to source and fund this loction

Edit the additional location

Fighting Tao · 15-05-2018 3:55pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Find an area thats not right next to a dense residential area?
Put them beside primary/secondary schools/Colleges for example, you might not get 1KM, but you will get better than a courtyard.

I'm sure you could put one in UCD and it wouldnt impact anyone.

There is already a crèche in UCD. Not sure how that would help people living and working in areas such as the IFSC.

astrofool · 15-05-2018 6:34pm

If you find it hard to sleep during the day, then night/shift work is probably not something you're cut out for.

By all means approach the creche, but kids are kids, they make noise, if you don't want noise, join Angelique Agreeable Virtuoso in the countryside (and try and ignore the sheep screaming when their lambs are taken away).

Graces7 · 15-05-2018 6:56pm

astrofool wrote: »

If you find it hard to sleep during the day, then night/shift work is probably not something you're cut out for.

By all means approach the creche, but kids are kids, they make noise, if you don't want noise, join Angelique Agreeable Virtuoso in the countryside (and try and ignore the sheep screaming when their lambs are taken away).[/QUOTE]

I know what you mean BUT that stops after three days... Trust me on that..

And to be fair to the OP, she was fine before the screaming started, and hopefully changing rooms and using better earplugs etc will make a difference?

Very few can afford to change jobs..

Yurple · 15-05-2018 7:22pm

Just so people are aware: I have absolutely no problem with a creche being part of this apartment complex. It is in a commercial unit and it is a business. It is also a great service for parents...

What is very annoying is that from the moment the creche is open, they put a group of children in the courtyard play area. This play area is in the court yard surrounded by 6 story apartment blocks on all sides. It echo's all sounds. They stay out here until closing because they rotate different age groups i think. It used to be 17:00 but it now becoming 18:30 until they bring them inside.

If they kept the children inside to play and only put them outside occasionally it would be absolutely no problem.

All children are loving it! They are running around like crazy, screaming, fighting, screeching, crying, etc. There is only 1 staff member outside most of the time on their phone.

Anyway, thanks for all those people that replied. I will try wax earplugs and triple glazing (already have double glazing).
Can anybody advise what best to do with those air vent strips above the windows? Should I put tape over them to completely shut them and block noise?

GreeBo · 15-05-2018 7:29pm

Dial Hard wrote: »

Cause Dublin is absolutely laced with greenfield sites lying idle.

Honest to God, there's some amount of misanthropists in this thread, even for Boards.

I've no kids, nor do I particularly like them but even I accept that the best place for creches and schools is within the community, not in some faraway gulag lest they offend the sensibilities of some miserable cranks.

A) Why does it have to be greenfield?

If 1KM is suddenly "faraway" then its no wonder we are becoming the fattest bunch of people on the planet.

Why not stick them beside already noisy sites, near the motorway for example?

GreeBo · 15-05-2018 7:30pm

Glass fused light wrote: »

Ok who is going to source and fund this loction

Edit the additional location

Oh I dunno, the people who want to run a creche mayhaps?

GreeBo · 15-05-2018 7:33pm

Fighting Tao wrote: »

There is already a crèche in UCD. Not sure how that would help people living and working in areas such as the IFSC.

Yep you've got me there alright chief!
My plan was basically to just build a single creche in UCD. :rolleyes:

I wonder how hard it would be to find a non residential side near the IFSC?
(I'm looking at you eastpoint business park....oh look, already a creche there)

GreeBo · 15-05-2018 7:35pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Nobody is talking about a creche on the ground floor of apartment building or in semi-d. Where did you get that from?

LOL, did you read the first post (or any posts!) in this thread at all there Ted?

Here is a hint...its about a creche thats....wait for it...on the ground floor of a......wait for it......apartment complex!:eek:

Fighting Tao · 15-05-2018 8:21pm

GreeBo wrote: »

A) Why does it have to be greenfield?
If 1KM is suddenly "faraway" then its no wonder we are becoming the fattest bunch of people on the planet.

Why not stick them beside already noisy sites, near the motorway for example?

Would on the motorway suit you better? It's just a fact of life that they are being integrated in the communities that use them. That policy is not going to change any time soon.

Fighting Tao · 15-05-2018 8:23pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Yep you've got me there alright chief!
My plan was basically to just build a single creche in UCD. :rolleyes:

I wonder how hard it would be to find a non residential side near the IFSC?
(I'm looking at you eastpoint business park....oh look, already a creche there)

They are located where they are needed and thankfully it's become the norm that they are in the community that they serve. Lack of community is a huge issue over the last 20-30 years. Creches have the ability to create a community feel and get people to know others that live close by rather than everyone living in their little boxes without any outside contact.

listermint · 15-05-2018 8:26pm

Yurple wrote: »

Just so people are aware: I have absolutely no problem with a creche being part of this apartment complex. It is in a commercial unit and it is a business. It is also a great service for parents...

What is very annoying is that from the moment the creche is open, they put a group of children in the courtyard play area. This play area is in the court yard surrounded by 6 story apartment blocks on all sides. It echo's all sounds. They stay out here until closing because they rotate different age groups i think. It used to be 17:00 but it now becoming 18:30 until they bring them inside.

If they kept the children inside to play and only put them outside occasionally it would be absolutely no problem.

All children are loving it! They are running around like crazy, screaming, fighting, screeching, crying, etc. There is only 1 staff member outside most of the time on their phone.

Anyway, thanks for all those people that replied. I will try wax earplugs and triple glazing (already have double glazing).
Can anybody advise what best to do with those air vent strips above the windows? Should I put tape over them to completely shut them and block noise?

No don't ever block vents ever. Unless of course you want mould and bronchial problem's

Try the ear plugs.

Change jobs or shifts

Or move.

meeeeh · 15-05-2018 9:44pm

GreeBo wrote: »

LOL, did you read the first post (or any posts!) in this thread at all there Ted?

Here is a hint...its about a creche thats....wait for it...on the ground floor of a......wait for it......apartment complex!:eek:

I did, did you?

Some time after the apartments were finished... someone got permission to build a large creche in the middle of the courtyard of every single apartment in the area.

Maybe dial down on outrage and dial up on thinking...

Glass fused light · 15-05-2018 10:16pm

GreeBo wrote: »

[QUOTE=Glass fused light;107004782
]Ok who is going to source and fund this loction

Edit the additional location

Oh I dunno, the people who want to run a creche mayhaps?

[/QUOTE]

Ok so 1 ucd building 1east point business park building
what's the capital investment needed by the people who wan to run a crèche in either of these locations

GreeBo · 16-05-2018 12:25am

meeeeh wrote: »

I did, did you?

Maybe dial down on outrage and dial up on thinking...

You asked where people got the idea from, it was from the OP that you just quoted.
Seems like you would have known that answer before posting your question if you had read the thread first?

GreeBo · 16-05-2018 12:27am

Glass fused light wrote: »

Ok so 1 ucd building 1east point business park building
what's the capital investment needed by the people who wan to run a crèche in either of these locations

Seems like you could get an extremely accurate answer by asking the owners of the existing creches in either of these locations?

GreeBo · 16-05-2018 12:29am

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Would on the motorway suit you better? It's just a fact of life that they are being integrated in the communities that use them. That policy is not going to change any time soon.

I think that would be both dangerous for the children at play time and difficult for that parents to get parking?

GreeBo · 16-05-2018 12:31am

Fighting Tao wrote: »

They are located where they are needed and thankfully it's become the norm that they are in the community that they serve. Lack of community is a huge issue over the last 20-30 years. Creches have the ability to create a community feel and get people to know others that live close by rather than everyone living in their little boxes without any outside contact.

I think you are confusing the purpose of a creche with something else.
They are located where they are most useful and likely to make money, not to create a community.
They are a business first.

Caranica · 16-05-2018 8:20am

OP I feel for you. We have a playground in the middle of our courtyard and on weekends and holidays as soon as the sun comes up some doors open and some kids are out there screaming and shouting until after dark. Never an adult to be seen. We've had a lot of damage done to property but apparently "children are just children" and "I didn't see it (because you weren't watching your child) and you can't prove it was my child"

As you said, the sound echoes off the buildings, here it sounds like an army of kids and not just 6-8 of them. I love rainy mornings because they're blissfully quiet.

In both cases the fault lies with the adults responsible for the children, the crèche management in your case. Have a word with them, you've nothing to lose.

meeeeh · 16-05-2018 8:21am

GreeBo wrote: »

You asked where people got the idea from, it was from the OP that you just quoted.
Seems like you would have known that answer before posting your question if you had read the thread first?

Why would anyone get the idea from there, since it's clearly stated it's separate building?

GreeBo · 16-05-2018 8:25am

meeeeh wrote: »

Why would anyone get the idea from there, since it's clearly stated it's separate building?

The creche is in the courtyard of an apartment block.
The problem is the noise created when the kids are outside.

The creche itself could be on the 71st floor and the same problem would exist.

What are you not getting about this?

iamwhoiam · 16-05-2018 8:27am

meeeeh wrote: »

Why would anyone get the idea from there, since it's clearly stated it's separate building?

The creche I bring my grandchild to is on the ground floor of a three story apartment block . The yard is to the back of the building and the kids are often outside . Mind you the teachers and creche workers never encourage them to scream ! In fact they do the opposite and try keep them calm and playing .

meeeeh · 16-05-2018 8:38am

GreeBo wrote: »

What are you not getting about this?

One of the things I don't understand is why would anyone write a snotty reply without actually properly reading op.

bucketybuck · 16-05-2018 8:46am

Why is it so hard for some to people to understand that the creche being in the middle of the apartment blocks and surrounded on all sides will amplify the noise quite significantly?

There is definitely a happy medium between having creches in the local community, and having a creche in the exact spot you would choose if your aim was to keep as many people awake as you possibly could.

If that creche was operating at those same apartments but in a unit facing away from the blocks rather than right in the middle then there would be a significant reduction in noise disruption for basically the exact same service. I think that is what people are trying to explain, the fact that putting screaming children in a noise tunnel was not good planning and that two seconds thought offers plausible alternatives.

iamwhoiam · 16-05-2018 8:52am

bucketybuck wrote: »

Why is it so hard for some to people to understand that the creche being in the middle of the apartment blocks and surrounded on all sides will amplify the noise quite significantly?

There is definitely a happy medium between having creches in the local community, and having a creche in the exact spot you would choose if your aim was to keep as many people awake as you possibly could.

If that creche was operating at those same apartments but in a unit facing away from the blocks rather than right in the middle then there would be a significant reduction in noise disruption for basically the exact same service. I think that is what people are trying to explain, the fact that putting screaming children in a noise tunnel was not good planning and that two seconds thought offers plausible alternatives.

Plus the shouty creche workers encouraging kids to scream is way out of line in my opinion . And totally unnecessary anyway

seamus · 16-05-2018 9:46am

Play white noise when you go down to sleep, play it loud. You'll be surprised how quickly you get used to it.

Complaining about the sounds of children playing during daytime hours in a residential area is an absolute waste of your time. And it's unreasonable, even if you it is causing you genuine issues. As a shift worker though the onus is on you to account for the difficulties that daytime sleeping brings. This is one of them.

Trust me, kids don't need any encouragement to scream and make noise. What the creche workers say and do is irrelevant.

GreeBo · 16-05-2018 9:50am

Sure kids maker noise playing, but they don't typically just scream all the time, they play.

meeeeh · 16-05-2018 10:15am

bucketybuck wrote: »

Why is it so hard for some to people to understand that the creche being in the middle of the apartment blocks and surrounded on all sides will amplify the noise quite significantly?

There is definitely a happy medium between having creches in the local community, and having a creche in the exact spot you would choose if your aim was to keep as many people awake as you possibly could.

If that creche was operating at those same apartments but in a unit facing away from the blocks rather than right in the middle then there would be a significant reduction in noise disruption for basically the exact same service. I think that is what people are trying to explain, the fact that putting screaming children in a noise tunnel was not good planning and that two seconds thought offers plausible alternatives.

I agree about amplifying the noise. I can't be sure but I think some of newer estates were required to put in a building for creche. I know the one my kids went to had three different providers renting the building but it was always for the same purpose. In op's case it's very likely creche was build as part of planning conditions or at least encouraged by the planning. However it wouldn't be the first time the execution and positioning of buildings is poor. But facilities for the neighbourhood have to be provided if you want to limit car travel. That's why I think op is more likely to get a result if he asks creche not to encourage the noise. As a parent though I wouldn't be happy for my kids to attend the creche where they don't play outside. I suspect majority of parents agree and I very much doubt creche will keep kids in for someone who is not their customer.

Extreme noise level - creche

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