30km/h planned for main roads in Dublin City Council area (not all main roads)

magicbastarder · 26-04-2021 11:40am

it probably makes some sense to focus on road deaths in relation to this, in terms of publicising it, because that's a simple message, but that unfortunately obscures all the other first and second order effects which are probably more important but more subtle.

i had a chap who lives near me, who bemoaned the introduction of the 30km/h limit on his road; despite the fact that if you tried to drive on that road at 50km/h you'd probably trash your suspension on the speed ramps on it which were installed after the people living on the road complained about fast rat running on the road.

vandriver · 26-04-2021 12:14pm

If DCC is running a dishonest campaign,am I not allowed to question it?
The vast majority of road deaths in Ireland occur on roads with a speed limit of 60 kmh or higher (73%),not on roads controlled by DCC.
The fact that they don't mention a fatality level would lead me to believe that it's in low single figures per year.

magicbastarder · 26-04-2021 1:07pm

is someone saying you're not allowed question it?

Zebra3 · 26-04-2021 1:16pm

vandriver wrote: »

If DCC is running a dishonest campaign,am I not allowed to question it?
The vast majority of road deaths in Ireland occur on roads with a speed limit of 60 kmh or higher (73%),not on roads controlled by DCC.
The fact that they don't mention a fatality level would lead me to believe that it's in low single figures per year.

You should read markpb’s post. You don’t need to scroll back that far either.

frozenfrozen · 26-04-2021 1:30pm

if the idea is to have less cars though making it annoying / slower then say that up front, don't hold up dead kids as the reason for 150 posts

vandriver · 26-04-2021 1:33pm

frozenfrozen wrote: »

if the idea is to have less cars though making it annoying / slower then say that up front, don't hold up dead kids as the reason for 150 posts

As I said,a bit of honesty about why this agenda is being promoted.

beauf · 27-04-2021 10:18pm

vandriver wrote: »

If DCC is running a dishonest campaign,am I not allowed to question it?
The vast majority of road deaths in Ireland occur on roads with a speed limit of 60 kmh or higher (73%),not on roads controlled by DCC.
The fact that they don't mention a fatality level would lead me to believe that it's in low single figures per year.

Are you talking about pedestrians or all road deaths on a road.

vandriver · 28-04-2021 12:17am

beauf wrote: »

Are you talking about pedestrians or all road deaths on a road.

All deaths.

beauf · 28-04-2021 12:33am

In fairness to DCC they are just stating a truism about higher speeds. You seem to be pointing out the same truism in national stats for all accidents.

You seem to be agreeing with them.

liamog · 28-04-2021 2:15am

The RSA stats show there were 11 deaths of vulnerable road users (Pedestrians, Cyclists and Motorbikes) in County Dublin in 2020.

From the report we can see their were 6 pedestrians killed, 3 motorcyclists (only one motorcyclist fatality occurred in the whole country on a road with a below 80km/h speed limit) and infer that 2 cyclists were killed.

We're now down to a maximum of 9 deaths of vulnerable road users on Dublin roads, DCC should be able to share the statistics showing which of these occurred on the affected roads and the speed at the time of the incident.

Research in the UK showed that the rates of fatal impact on 30mph were around 2% not the 50% that is often reported (the source is a bit sus as they were an anti speed kills campaign). This is due to braking that occurs prior to impact. With the now mandatory AEB systems designed to detect pedestrians and cyclists, it would be very unusual for an impact to occur at full speed on a given road.

Using junk statistics to justify the changes without performing infrastructure works to reduce carriageway design speed is disengious, as is the argument that you have to reduce the speed before you perform any works.

148 people died on Irish roads last year, changing the Navan Road from 50km/h to 30km/h probably would not of changed that number at all.

Oak123 · 28-04-2021 2:33am

I would be happy just being able to travel at the speed limit without being tailgated all the time.

magicbastarder · 28-04-2021 8:48am

as mentioned in another thread, speed is usually the main metric which is focused on, because it's clear and binary - you're either exceeding Xkm/h or you're not. it can be measured reliably by an unmanned station.
it's harder to identify and tackle other driver behaviour, because the nature of other transgressions can be more qualitative than quantitative.

Larbre34 · 20-05-2021 1:32am

RTÉ reporting that the City executive has dropped this nonsensical proposal, conceding that the process was flawed and the opposition strong.

Its now up to Councillors to vote for a clean sheet review of Speed Limits or to leave things as they are for the foreseeable future. The latter is most likely.

Keegan presiding over a clown show in the Civic Offices.

is_that_so · 20-05-2021 8:30am

Larbre34 wrote: »

RTÉ reporting that the City executive has dropped this nonsensical proposal, conceding that the process was flawed and the opposition strong.

Its now up to Councillors to vote for a clean sheet review of Speed Limits or to leave things as they are for the foreseeable future. The latter is most likely.

Keegan presiding over a clown show in the Civic Offices.

Yep here's the article
https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2021/0519/1222707-dublin-speed-limit/

CatInABox · 21-05-2021 10:12am

Strange that 50% percentage of the surveyed people supported the proposal in some form with 46% against, but it's being presented as if it had no support at all.

is_that_so · 21-05-2021 10:15am

CatInABox wrote: »

Strange that 50% percentage of the surveyed people supported the proposal in some form with 46% against, but it's being presented as if it had no support at all.

Not enough support rather than none. Limited could mean anything.

odyssey06 · 21-05-2021 10:17am

CatInABox wrote: »

Strange that 50% percentage of the surveyed people supported the proposal in some form with 46% against, but it's being presented as if it had no support at all.

Almost all the submissions made directly or via councillors were against it.
The survey itself was rigged and presented as a propaganda exercise in favour of the desired outcome. It couldn't be stood over.

frozenfrozen · 21-05-2021 10:18am

But we spoke about that at the time. It was would you like 40 or would you like 30km/h

Which led people who wanted neither to "support" lowering limits.

Cant be fcuked going back to quote myself but it was said and done at the time the support was far lower than any sort of 50:50

odyssey06 · 21-05-2021 10:20am

frozenfrozen wrote: »

But we spoke about that at the time. It was would you like 40 or would you like 30km/h
Which led people who wanted neither to "support" lowering limits.

Exactly. It wasn't a public consultation to actually gauge public opinion an issue.
The "con" part was a con job.

Roadhawk · 21-05-2021 10:44am

is_that_so wrote: »

Yep here's the article
https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2021/0519/1222707-dublin-speed-limit/

MIC DROP

Best news all week.

magicbastarder · 21-05-2021 10:47am

this is great news. it will make *so* much difference to the speed of slow moving city traffic.

Smee_Again · 21-05-2021 10:52am

Absolutely, now that the limit has been left as it is commuters will still be able to drive at an average speed of 9.6km/h.

odyssey06 · 21-05-2021 10:52am

Smee_Again wrote: »

Absolutely, now that the limit has been left as it is commuters will still be able to drive at an average speed of 9.6km/h.

So the limit wasn't needed then.

Smee_Again · 21-05-2021 11:00am

odyssey06 wrote: »

So the limit wasn't needed then.

Why do you say that? The benefits are fairly clear while the impact on journey times is negligible, seems a clear win-win.

magicbastarder · 21-05-2021 11:04am

again, the difference between 'average speed' and 'maximum speed' seems lost on people.

vandriver · 21-05-2021 11:39am

magicbastarder wrote: »

again, the difference between 'average speed' and 'maximum speed' seems lost on people.

Again,you seem incapable of realizing that to even make the low average speed that is quoted,you have to get up to 50 kmh between lights.

Smee_Again · 21-05-2021 11:51am

vandriver wrote: »

Again,you seem incapable of realizing that to even make the low average speed that is quoted,you have to get up to 50 kmh between lights.

Have to? You able to back that up?

odyssey06 · 21-05-2021 11:57am

Smee_Again wrote: »

Why do you say that? The benefits are fairly clear while the impact on journey times is negligible, seems a clear win-win.

Well if journeys arent even hitting the speed when is the lìmit needed?
Are cars exceeding the 30 during rush as the average time is set by lengthy time stopped in traffic?
Are cars exceeding the 30 outside rush hour journeys in which case why are we talking about average rush hour based times?

odyssey06 · 21-05-2021 12:00pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

again, the difference between 'average speed' and 'maximum speed' seems lost on people.

One of the inputs to average speed is maximum speed.

magicbastarder · 21-05-2021 12:05pm

vandriver wrote: »

Again,you seem incapable of realizing that to even make the low average speed that is quoted,you have to get up to 50 kmh between lights.

what?
a cyclist will beat an average speed of 10km/h without ever approaching 50km/h.

vandriver · 21-05-2021 12:08pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

what?
a cyclist will beat an average speed of 10km/h without ever approaching 50km/h.

1.I don't know where the quoted average speed of 9.6 kmh comes from.It sounds wrong.
2.Of course you can average a good speed if traffic lights don't apply.

magicbastarder · 21-05-2021 12:08pm

back to foundation level maths with you.

magicbastarder · 21-05-2021 12:13pm

vandriver wrote: »

1.I don't know where the quoted average speed of 9.6 kmh comes from.It sounds wrong.

the current estimate from google maps to travel the length of the NCR by car shows an average speed of under 12km/h. and it's not even rush hour.

Pinch Flat · 21-05-2021 12:25pm

vandriver wrote: »

1.I don't know where the quoted average speed of 9.6 kmh comes from.It sounds wrong.
2.Of course you can average a good speed if traffic lights don't apply.

Checked in with my boss this morning. Drove from just outside Naas to Dublin City centre this morning - traffic was Brutal. 2.5 hours. Distance 37km. Just shy of 15 kph. Not too bad I suppose:rolleyes:

Roadhawk · 21-05-2021 1:04pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

the current estimate from google maps to travel the length of the NCR by car shows an average speed of under 12km/h. and it's not even rush hour.

when its wet out cyclist and pedestrians usually defer to their private motor or public transport. Naturally the traffic will move slower when its raining. Stay safe out there

Edit: not to mention the upset that has already been implemented to the roads around Dublin. Lanes and access removed/reduced from certain roads to accommodate specific road users only puts pressure for motorists on arterial routes such as the NCR. Traffic will become worse because of this.

Roadhawk · 21-05-2021 1:17pm

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Checked in with my boss this morning. Drove from just outside Naas to Dublin City centre this morning - traffic was Brutal. 2.5 hours. Distance 37km. Just shy of 15 kph. Not too bad I suppose:rolleyes:

Around what time was that?

odyssey06 · 21-05-2021 1:23pm

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Checked in with my boss this morning. Drove from just outside Naas to Dublin City centre this morning - traffic was Brutal. 2.5 hours. Distance 37km. Just shy of 15 kph. Not too bad I suppose:rolleyes:

Did you even get over 30 kmh at any point in Dublin?

Smee_Again · 21-05-2021 1:31pm

Roadhawk wrote: »

when its wet out cyclist and pedestrians usually defer to their private motor or public transport. Naturally the traffic will move slower when its raining. Stay safe out there

Edit: not to mention the upset that has already been implemented to the roads around Dublin. Lanes and access removed/reduced from certain roads to accommodate specific road users only puts pressure for motorists on arterial routes such as the NCR. Traffic will become worse because of this.

Except the opposite tends to happen, traffic evaporates.

Roadhawk · 21-05-2021 1:38pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

Except the opposite tends to happen, traffic evaporates.

Yes i agree, with mass buy in for people to transfer to cycling and use the infrastructure provided, then on nicer days the traffic will evaporate but on a day like today where the weather is sh!t and the road space is reduced that will only cause more traffic. #poorplanning

Roadhawk · 21-05-2021 1:53pm

Roadhawk wrote: »

when its wet out cyclist and pedestrians usually defer to their private motor or public transport. Naturally the traffic will move slower when its raining. Stay safe out there

Edit: not to mention the upset that has already been implemented to the roads around Dublin. Lanes and access removed/reduced from certain roads to accommodate specific road users only puts pressure for motorists on arterial routes such as the NCR. Traffic will become worse because of this.

2.5 hrs sounds like a time you would have seen before the Newlands cross upgrade.

going off what you have said Google maps would paint a different picture from this morning showing times of roughly an hour at most.

7am departure:
8am departure:
9am departure:

Smee_Again · 21-05-2021 2:00pm

Roadhawk wrote: »

Yes i agree, with mass buy in for people to transfer to cycling and use the infrastructure provided, then on nicer days the traffic will evaporate but on a day like today where the weather is sh!t and the road space is reduced that will only cause more traffic. #poorplanning

Nope, it evaporates and doesn't return. People make the switch and generally don't switch back.

odyssey06 · 21-05-2021 2:04pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

Nope, it evaporates and doesn't return. People make the switch and generally don't switch back.

Very dubious.
There's a % that are 'fair weather' to a certain extent so to claim it evaporates and doesn't return doesn't stand up in that sense.

Lots of cyclists switch to other modes in poor weather.
And there's a drop off in cyclists in the winter months versus summer, when poor weather is more likely.

Smee_Again · 21-05-2021 2:20pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

Very dubious.
There's a % that are 'fair weather' to a certain extent so to claim it evaporates and doesn't return doesn't stand up in that sense.

Lots of cyclists switch to other modes in poor weather.
And there's a drop off in cyclists in the winter months versus summer, when poor weather is more likely.

Because they have the choice, remove or limit that choice and the change becomes permanent.

And everyone is better for it.

Weepsie · 21-05-2021 2:25pm

Roadhawk wrote: »

Yes i agree, with mass buy in for people to transfer to cycling and use the infrastructure provided, then on nicer days the traffic will evaporate but on a day like today where the weather is sh!t and the road space is reduced that will only cause more traffic. #poorplanning

People need to just get on with it.

I'd get wetter walking to and from a busstop , than I did on my 25 minute cycle today and that was in the worst part of the day.

I cycle in , dry off and get changed. If I take public transport, I'm not likely to have spares with me, I get wet anyway and I'm festering away in those clothes all day.

Irish people know the type of weather we have, yet our solution seems to only be drive. Dress for the weather, and then cycling isn't an issue.

Pinch Flat · 21-05-2021 2:27pm

Roadhawk wrote: »

Around what time was that?

First thing so was probably on the road around 7

_Kaiser_ · 23-05-2021 12:53pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

Absolutely, now that the limit has been left as it is commuters will still be able to drive at an average speed of 9.6km/h.

This line, or ones like it, are trotted out a lot as justification for measures like this. The same is used in relation to variable speeds on the M50

Outside of the morning/evening commute though there's no problem doing the posted limits at all in my experience.

I used to do M7 to Sandyford daily until a few years ago and after 9/9:30 it was very rare that I wasn't able to do a consistent 120/100 km/h all the way. Same on the way back once the evening rush had passed.

Smee_Again · 23-05-2021 1:07pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

This line, or ones like it, are trotted out a lot as justification for measures like this. The same is used in relation to variable speeds on the M50

Outside of the morning/evening commute though there's no problem doing the posted limits at all in my experience.

I used to do M7 to Sandyford daily until a few years ago and after 9/9:30 it was very rare that I wasn't able to do a consistent 120/100 km/h all the way. Same on the way back once the evening rush had passed.

This isn’t about the M50 though is it? Your anecdote is entirely irrelevant.

_Kaiser_ · 23-05-2021 1:28pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

This isn’t about the M50 though is it? Your anecdote is entirely irrelevant.

OK. In the job after the one I referenced I had to occasionally go into our office in the city centre. Off-peak this was again not very demanding.

The entire argument for lower speeds other than "safety" (which is in fact more of a justification to allow people do stupid things around vehicular traffic) is the congestion that happens at peak hours.

Well y'know what? That problem has already started to fix itself with all those office workers now WFH, and surveys showing that 95% of them want/expect to keep doing so to varying degrees once Covid is past.

odyssey06 · 23-05-2021 2:12pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

This isn’t about the M50 though is it? Your anecdote is entirely irrelevant.

Its about the flaws in using average journey time.

Smee_Again · 23-05-2021 3:47pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

OK. In the job after the one I referenced I had to occasionally go into our office in the city centre. Off-peak this was again not very demanding.

The entire argument for lower speeds other than "safety" (which is in fact more of a justification to allow people do stupid things around vehicular traffic) is the congestion that happens at peak hours.

Well y'know what? That problem has already started to fix itself with all those office workers now WFH, and surveys showing that 95% of them want/expect to keep doing so to varying degrees once Covid is past.

That’s an interesting point actually, any idea what the % was pre-covid was? I doubt it was any where near 95% but when people have positive change thrust upon them they don’t want to go back to how things were, despite possibly being anti-change or indifferent to it originally.

The same happens when changes to speed limits and traffic flows are implemented.

30km/h planned for main roads in Dublin City Council area (not all main roads)

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