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Irish Championships 2021

13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn


    What about the weekenders and morning tournament? Do you still expect them to go ahead?


    I agree with anchor that there are likely to be large numbers of unvaccinated kids and adolescents (the latter due to be vaccinated when they return to school) so maybe switch the championship to the mid-term break in late October and start in August with a tournament or two for players with the new vaccination certs only.


    Indeed it qould make sense to move the 50+/65+ Championship to August instead of late September?



  • Registered Users Posts: 104 ✭✭anchor4208


    I genuinely hoped you had something stronger than this to be honest.

    For a start, I think you're missing one of the basic points of public health restrictions. Any type of gathering involves some element of risk however big or small. Any type of opening up involves some benefits however big or small. So when decisions are made to open up different parts of society, it involves both an assessment of the risks and the benefits. This leads to all sorts of apparent contradictions - a wedding is allowed with up to 50 guests so why on earth can you not have a baptism? 50 people are allowed into an indoor cinema, but if a sports team is training outdoors, why can there be only 15 present? However, these contradictions don't exist because of stupidity. They exist because we can't open everything up, so some things which are regarded as important (e.g. pubs and restaurants because of their economic value) are allowed to open, and to balance that out, some other things are required to remain closed.

    In that context, it doesn't matter if you think that the Irish Ch will be safer than a theatre or cinema. I'm sure you're right in that assessment, but it's not relevant. The government has chosen to generally ban 'organised indoor events' but has chosen to specifically mention some indoor events that are exempt from the bans, including cinemas etc. They didn't name chess tournaments as something that's exempt from the indoor events ban, so therefore they're not exempt. As a further point, they specifically say that all indoor sports are banned, and that's what we claim to be.

    In my mind, the proposed event is a clear breach of the restrictions. I suppose the big question for the ICU is what's at risk if it proceeds. To be fair, I don't think it would be a big health risk either, so the main risks would be that the ICU would be fined ( and the fine is relatively small at €500), that the event would have to be cancelled after its already started, and maybe some poor publicity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Back on 28 May I suggested the ICU seek explicit permission from the Minister for some chess tournaments to be approved as pilot cultural events.

    It seems now that they haven't done that and it's possibly too late but they could still try asking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 627 ✭✭✭Retd.LoyolaCpt


    I do appreciate the condescending message suggesting I don’t understand the concept of risk, offsetting public and private benefit and what every government has tried to do for 18 months.

    In any case, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I don’t concur that the guidelines outlaw this type of event.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 627 ✭✭✭Retd.LoyolaCpt


    I thought you’d already been warned about having two accounts.

    Why in gods name do you think this hasn’t been done and been unanswered, why mention it in every single post for 3 months - the government doesn’t provide information in April, May, June or even early July for small niche events running primarily in August. They’ve a tough enough time arranging restrictions for one week at a time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 104 ✭✭anchor4208


    Apologies, my intention certainly wasn't to condescend to you. You've had a hugely beneficial impact on Irish chess and I'm always happy to acknowledge that. Its mainly for that reason that I had hoped that you had found something in the regulations that I'd missed. As it turns out ,your argument is simply that X is safer than Y, the same argument that every disgruntled sector has been making since lockdowns began. My post was simple to argue why I thought that missed the point. You've kind of played the man rather than the ball in response, but yeah, we can agree to disagree, and no disrespect intended.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 383 ✭✭macelligott


    It seems the best thing for the ICU is to keep the heads down and continue along the path it has chosen. The planning and organisation around the Irish Championship has been excellent. If we make too much of a song and dance before the event, we might only attract the attention of other disgruntled sectors. After the event(s) are over, hopefully, the ICU can generate some positive publicity from having run chess events safely in difficult circumstances.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn


    I don't know who you think you are talking to; I only have one account on boards.ie



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,334 ✭✭✭reunion


    This suggestion I interpreted to be as sarcasm and am shocked that it wasn't.

    I would be against this, I think we should be publicing the event. Otherwise I would argue that we then know it to be in breach of COVID guidelines/regulations and it's why we are being hush hush about it.

    I'm happy it's going ahead but a bit disappointed that the reasoning isn't more solid. If a hotel won't permit the event to run in their venue or boardgame/cardgame stores won't permit events to run - I think that would be an indicator that the event shouldn't be permitted. Maybe the easing of restrictions would permit this?

    At the moment I don't know how or what would cancel the event... what restrictions would have to be reintroduced for the event to be canceled?

    I'm almost certain we would fit under 15. Other indoor leisure facilities or 4. Organised indoor events (such as large conferences, concerts and shows) - hell even 9. Exercise and sporting activities would prohibit the event from taking place (it says no matches).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    If anyone is worried about the Irish Championship then they just shouldn't play in it. Last year's event was excellently run and perfectly safe. We have to get back to live chess some time so it might as well be now.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn


    I have to second that emotion. OTB tournaments are being played in many countries now.

    I just worry that if the event goes ahead ICU need to be certain that it's not contrary to regulations, else they and the hosting venue could be in trouble. It shouldn't be Golfgate if everyone is careful. There are 42 entries currently according to the ICU website this morning so room for a few more.

    Still no word on whether the first weekender is going ahead? I suppose ICU is waiting on any Government announcements on indoor dining etc.

    It looks as if the team event must be postponed due to lack of interest?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    Quite right, but all I'm worried about is that it goes ahead :)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 383 ✭✭macelligott


    From the rate at which infection numbers are increasing, I suspect some restrictions will be re-introduced in August/September. But I'm reasonably confident that nothing will happen before the championship is finished :-)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn


    The first (rating-limited) weekender is due to start tomorrow evening and there is nothing on the ICU website to say it's cancelled, so presumably it is on. If so and nothing goes wrong, then presumably the other scheduled events will go ahead.

    Only the team event is announced as postponed (due to clear lack of interest).

    Any live boards?



  • Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭Past_Pawn_99


    Not sure which room the weekender will be played in but in the main playing hall the majority if not all the boards are live boards.



  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭9400


    Hi, where can you see the live boards?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn


    If you click the player names at the top you get the full list and can switch to other games.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    This website has become ridiculously complicated recently, I don't know why they just couldn't have left well enough alone. I have posted a tipping competition thread somewhere but God knows where it ended up. Perhaps one of our brainy moderators can retrieve it?

    New rules this year, you can predict as many games each day as you like scoring 1 pt for a win for the higher rated player, 3 for a draw and 5 if the lower player wins, the snag is that if even one of your predictions is wrong you score nothing for that day>



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,265 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Your post seems to be there anyway.

    The new site - yeah, it takes a bit of getting used to, but I think it's ok once you do, and you can see it being improved regularly, so that's something at least.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn


    I miss important features we used to have:

    a) Edit your last post to fix typos or add new information;

    b) Go directly to your first unread post in a topic;

    c) See at a glance in the chess topics listing which threads have updates you have not seen (these are bold, the others not).

    Both a) and b) are available on the English Chess Forum for example.

    So far I think the new version is a major disimprovement.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,265 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    You can edit your post by clicking on the three dots on the top right of the post and clicking Edit (but only within 24 hours of the post - I think this time limit is common enough)

    First unread post is a bit of a mixed bag, but I found this by the usual way (on desktop) of My Threads and clicking on the down arrow under the thread. Can't remember how to do it on mobile, but it's possible.

    Yes, the unread posts now show as a closed envelope, which isn't as clear, but it may be part of the changes being done at the moment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Down to 40 entrants now (ICU website as of Tuesday morning the 27th).

    Peoples and Keogh seem to have withdrawn.

    Will any of the wildcard entries be admitted?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,265 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Yes - the 40 entrants includes a wildcard to balance it out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Thank you for that information.

    Looking at the revised list, title norms are just about possible if pairings work out. In practice, depending on actual results, it might be impossible.

    In the field there is 1 x GM, 2 x IM (two others originally entered but are no longer listed), 1 x WIM.

    Of course this is a consideration chiefly for the higher-rated FMs and also Trisha Kanyamarala who could be seeking a WGM norm, and Alice O'Gorman who could be seeking a WIM norm.

    It would be necessary for them (apart from getting the required rating performance of course) to be paired with sufficient titled opponents.

    These players would all need to meet the one GM, both IMs and EITHER at least two FMs OR one FM plus Trisha (who of course cannot play herself so she would need two FMs). Alice can omit the GM or one of the IMs if she plays Trisha.

    Anyone fortunate enough to meet the right balance of opposition and skilful enough to achieve a high score would probably also need to avail of the provisions of FIDE Handbook clause 1.46b if one of their early opponents was low-rated.

    Calculating the Rp for the IM norm allows a player to raise the rating of ONE opponent to the adjusted rating floor of 2050. (The FIDE rating of the first round opponent of all plausible candidates is sure to be lower than that.) The adjusted rating floor for Trisha's first opponent would be 2000.

    (This is not relevant to Alice, should she score well enough, since the floor for WIM is 1850 and all players in the tournament are currently rated above that number by FIDE - unless a lower rated player comes in as a late entry.)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 383 ✭✭macelligott


    I count 15 of the original entries have now withdrawn. That’s a pity 😕



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn


    It was 13 out when I looked after breakfast but now it's 15, maybe more to come? Two FMs among the recent withdrawals. Current entry list is 37. If it stays at 37, what's the plan?

    Admitting late entries to balance numbers (two already in) isn't making much sense as there could be more dropouts?

    This is very hard on the organisers, but also on the remaining competitors who are probably wondering can an advance draw be posted, and if so when?

    I also see an unfamiliar name on the Waiting List added since yesterday. I see no such player with a FIDE rating. Are they even eligible?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,265 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Yeah, I know these are strange times, but I agree it's a bit unfair on everyone to be withdrawing this late in the day.

    Two wildcards are in the 37 - do you now add a third to balance the numbers again? But three wildcards really starts lowering the quality of the tournament (and I say that as a wildcard). Or do you tell one of the wildcards they're not needed now, and thanks? That also seems unfair to players who have made plans for the next week.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 277 ✭✭EnPassant


    I wouldn't worry about wildcards - a player who was 1700 at the start of the pandemic might well be 1900 today anyway, especially juniors. There should probably be extra wildcards allowed this year, to allow for players not being able to improve their ratings for over a year.

    I don't think you should take away places once they have been offered. The ICU could offer one of the remaining wildcard hopefuls a place subject to there being an odd number of players at the start tomorrow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    A few of the withdrawals were very predictable as they are always entering tournaments only to withdraw before the start. I won't name names but I think everyone knows who they are.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn


    I am not sure who you mean but I think the two latest withdrawals (both FMs) certainly don't fall into that category.

    There could be many reasons for a late withdrawal, e.g., somebody might be informed they are a close contact of a new confirmed case of Covid-19.

    I guess ICU chiefs were all at work when these withdrawals were notified but they really should make some announcements tonight, e.g., how soon before the start should players arrive, will they be temperature-tested, should they bring their vaccination certs if they have them, what are the rules about consumption of beverages, chocolate etc. during games, can players remain after their game to spectate, etc. etc.

    Some of that information could have been communicated after they saw how things went last weekend, not waiting until the night before the first round.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 383 ✭✭macelligott


    It would be nice to see John McMorrow re-entering if he could manage to play :-)



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,265 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Under the calendar item on the left of the ICU homepage, it flags the Covid-19 guidelines & walkthrough (https://www.icu.ie/articles/944)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Thanks for that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn


    • That page maybe should have been flagged on the main icu.ie page IMHO.
    • It says "The usual Irish Championship time control will apply; 105 mins + 30 second increment for move one plus 30 minutes after move 40."
    • On the other hand the PDF flier for the event still linked from the event page, says the rate of play is 105 minutes plus 35 second increment with no time added after move 40.
    • https://www.icu.ie/system/events/flyers/000/001/409/original/The_100th_Irish_Championship_2021.pdf?1617029064
    • Reverting to the two-period system means a longer time spent indoors with increased risk, does it not?
    • Maybe it's not too late to have a change of mind about this.




  • Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭zeitnot


    The T&C page (https://www.icu.ie/articles/670) says

    "Appendix 2: Amendments for 2021 event.

    a. In 2020, we had the attached note: (However, for 2020, this will be simplified to 135 minutes + 35 second increment for all moves). We believe this is unnecessary for 2021 and so would revert to the standard time control."

    It looks as if the "105 minutes plus 35 second increment" from the flyer may have been a misprint? I assumed that all along either the 2019 (105 minutes for the first 40 moves + 30 minutes for the rest of the game + 30 second increment from move 1) or 2020 (135 minutes + 35 second increment for all moves) would be used.

    Going back to the 2019 time limit addresses one of the (few) complaints from last year, which was that the games were very long.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn


    The tournament director has now posted the entry list and tournament parameters on chess-results.com and it says Time control 105+35

    There is no draw up yet, possibly because the organisers still hope to even the numbers to avoid a bye?

    I would imagine most games would be longer if the 40-move control with 30 minutes added is used.

    I think the extra 5 seconds on the increment in 2020 was intended to balance the inconvenience of two boards or other distractions last year and I don't see the point of it this year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 383 ✭✭macelligott




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn


    35 when I last looked



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,265 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Yep, it was 36 earlier this evening but it's 35 now.


    This is all getting a bit farcical to be honest.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,265 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Looks like we've settled on 35 with a sub to fill in for byes (as last year I think)


    So I guess let's those of us left get on with the action!



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,265 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    Tony Fox v Tim Harding is a very interesting game so far (rd 2 after the opening a Caro ..exf6)



  • Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭Eugene Donohoe


    I'm enjoying the games and really enjoyed the Oissine Murchadha (0) vs Alice O' Gorman (1) game in rd 2. I especially liked Alice's 45...Ra7 before pushing on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭zeitnot


    I'm enjoying the games very much as well. Outstanding effort by the organisers in this, as in so much else.

    I'm following the LiveChess rather than Chess24, in an effort to put myself in the player's position as much as possible. Mostly this serves to remind me that it's a good thing I'm not playing. But occasionally I manage to do better -- I had worked out how to save David Murray's position against Heidenfeld at the end, before he went wrong.

    Round 3 board 1 is very interesting (currently after Black's move 10). White has B + N for R + 3 P. For all I know this is theory--Murphy has used very little time, Heidenfeld quite a bit more.



  • Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭Eugene Donohoe


    Yes I agree with you. I'm following LiveChess as well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Tom may still have an outside chance of an IM norm? He has met his GM and two IMs but only one FM and has an untitled opponent in round 8. He needs to meet one of the three available FMs (or Trisha) in the final round and (without doing any calculations) he probably needs 2/2.



  • Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭zeitnot


    No! Pretty unlucky, that. Norms for 9-round tournaments go up to 7/9, so he would never have needed two wins. But his average opponent's rating (after bringing one opponent up to 2050) had to at least reach 2230 (possibly after rounding up). Being paired against Sean Murphy, he can't now go any higher than 2216.444. (If I'm calculating correctly.)

    I was surprised to see Heidenfeld agree a draw today, since it seemed he would need a win, especially given that he will lose out on tie-break if he and O'Gorman end up on the same score. **But does he know that?** Perhaps someone should check!



  • Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭zeitnot


    ... 2219.222, actually (with correct ratings). Not enough.

    I don't understand why it's S. Murphy rather than C. Murphy as white on board 1.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 277 ✭✭EnPassant


    I'm not 100% sure why this happened either, but the the FIDE rules seem to explain it:-

    a) Tom O'Gorman (6 points) cannot play the players on 5.5 or 5 (he has already played Mark Heidenfeld and Tarun Kanyamarala, and both himself and Colm Daly have had 2 whites in a row) so he has to be paired with the players on 4.5.

    b) As a result, the top 8 players are paired together.

    c) Because half the group of 8 have been downfloated, the group is paired according to the players' tournament seeding (not their current standing in the tournament). This means that Conor Murphy is paired before Tom O'Gorman, and is allocated Colm Daly. Tom is 4th of the 8 players by seeding and is paired against the 8th-ranked player, Sean Murphy.

    That's my theory, anyway ... Maybe the tournament controller can explain.



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