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Commonly believed historical inaccuracies

24567

Comments

  • #52
    storker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,688 ✭✭✭storker


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    It wasnt fought to end slavery but it was fought to preserve the Union / Federal government which under Republicans was pledged to contain slavery (was that not a noble goal?) ... which the South viewed as ultimately leading to slaverys eventual extinction.
    It was a struggle about whether the power of the Federal government would be deployed to protect and spread slavery or to contain and eventually extinguish it.

    The South could see what was coming down the tracks. They couched it in terms of "States' Rights", as in the right not to be forced to accept the rules of everyone else in "the club", but it was plain which rule they were worried about.

    The Emancipation Proclamation only happened in 1863, when the Civil War was already well under way.


  • #53
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Deleted User wrote: »
    No, you're confusing two posters as one.
    cheers, my mistake!


  • #54
    Samsonsmasher
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 610 ✭✭✭Samsonsmasher


    That De Valera was spared execution after 1916 because he was an American.

    In fact it was because De Valera and his men were marched to a separate British barracks than the GPO garrison and the other garrisons.
    General Maxwell planned to court martial and shoot not just the ringleaders but scores more and indeed a mass grave was dug. The executions went painfully slowly with the result that while most of the public initially supported the defeat of the rebels and were baying for blood it allowed time for tempers to cool and opinion to swing toward mercy while details of the heroism of the rebels began to be more widely known. Maxwell went from being a British hero for crushing a treasonous rabble to a brute killing heroic Gaels.
    Embarassed the British government called off the executions.
    In any case Maxwell is said to have asked who De Valera was and he was dismissed as unimportant. A mere maths teacher.
    Spared the glorious fate of Pearse Clarke McDonagh et al De Valera assumed the leadership of the republican prisoners and the rest is history.


  • #55
    mikemac2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,972 ✭✭✭mikemac2


    Patrick Pearse
    P H Pearse
    Pádraig Mac Piarais

    All used by the man himself but being serious about his languages he never ever mixed them

    Somewhere along the way Pádraig Pearse became the accepted version though he never used it

    I remember a tour guide from Kilmainham Jail being interviewed on the radio and he got blasted by texters for saying Patrick as if it was too anglicised


  • #56
    velo.2010
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    Somewhat trivial compared to the above, but I remember Michael Caine telling the story (and me completely believing it at the the time)of how Mary, Queen of Scots was responsible for the origin of the word marmalade while appearing on Michael Parkinson's chatshow.

    The story goes that when Mary was ill, her maids would call out 'mam est malade' (mother is ill) and come back from the kitchen with this orange preserve. The locals saw this and assumed the preserve had the name 'mam est malade' or marmalade!

    Complete nonsense of course but sounds quite plausible to the unknowing.


  • #57
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,672 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Samsonsmasher wrote: »
    That De Valera was spared execution after 1916 because he was an American.

    In fact it was because De Valera and his men were marched to a separate British barracks than the GPO garrison and the other garrisons.
    General Maxwell planned to court martial and shoot not just the ringleaders but scores more and indeed a mass grave was dug. The executions went painfully slowly with the result that while most of the public initially supported the defeat of the rebels and were baying for blood it allowed time for tempers to cool and opinion to swing toward mercy while details of the heroism of the rebels began to be more widely known. Maxwell went from being a British hero for crushing a treasonous rabble to a brute killing heroic Gaels.
    Embarassed the British government called off the executions.
    In any case Maxwell is said to have asked who De Valera was and he was dismissed as unimportant. A mere maths teacher.
    Spared the glorious fate of Pearse Clarke McDonagh et al De Valera assumed the leadership of the republican prisoners and the rest is history.

    I was going to post this one too! Repeated in the Little Museum of Dublin when I did a tour there a couple of years ago.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #58
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,672 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    That many Irish people of sallow skin must descend from survivors of the Spanish Armada.

    This comes up a lot now in discussing the ethnicity results of DNA tests.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #59
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,672 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    That all Irish records* were destroyed in the Customs House fire**

    *Not all records
    **Not even in the Customs House

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #60
    silliussoddius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,417 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    That many Irish people of sallow skin must descend from survivors of the Spanish Armada.

    This comes up a lot now in discussing the ethnicity results of DNA tests.

    Yeah, real cringy. I recall reading posts on ancestry's message board asking for background on Black Irish family names. This stuff takes on a life of its own.


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  • #61
    wiggle16
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,022 Mod ✭✭✭✭wiggle16


    ElJaguar wrote: »
    2 famous quotes

    The Voltaire quote about freedom of speech "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

    He never said it.

    Or as the joke goes

    "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the DEATH your right to misattribute it to Voltaire!!"
    - Voltaire

    "Let them eat cake" is another one. Marie Antoinette was a child when the quote began to do the rounds so she could not have said it.

    The idea that people prior to say, the 15th century, thought that the Earth was flat and you could sail over the edge, is also a myth. The Ancient Greeks had mathematically determined that the Earth is round.

    That the Polish Hussars charged at German tanks... on horseback.


  • #62
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,512 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    The laughable piece in Tom Barry's book about Japanese soldiers after the fall of Singapore singing "The Boys of Kilmichael".

    More chance of the lads of the column performing Kabuki.


  • #63
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,672 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    That Richard III killed his nephews, had a withered arm, etc.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #64
    silliussoddius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,417 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    That Richard III killed his nephews, had a withered arm, etc.

    What is current thinking of what happened them?


  • #65
    saabsaab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,238 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    That De Valera was behind the shooting of Michael Collins.


  • #66
    Edgware
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,874 ✭✭✭Edgware


    That the first shots of the War of Independence was fired at Soloheadbeg


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  • #67
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,672 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    silliussoddius wrote: »
    What is current thinking of what happened them?

    Much more likely to have been Henry since the boys had a stronger claim than their sister who he married. Shakespeare performed great propaganda for the Tudors.

    Finding Richard's skeleton proved he had a deformed spine but his arms were normal.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #68
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,512 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    saabsaab wrote: »
    That De Valera was behind the shooting of Michael Collins.

    You can blame that cartoon of a Michael Collins movie for popularising that.


  • #69
    Caquas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Notoldorwise wrote: »
    "Being born in a stable does not make one a horse". A quote falsely claimed to have been uttered by the Duke of Wellington

    Worse still, it was said about him by his arch-enemy Daniel O'Connell. During a speech at a banquet after one of O'Connell's Monster Meetings on Sunday the 1st of October 1843
    The following passage in reference to the Duke of Wellington was received with great laughter: “The poor old duke what shall I say of him. To be sure he was born in Ireland, but being born in a stable does not make a man a horse.”

    In fact, the Duke was from a distinguished Anglo-Irish family with deep roots in Ireland. His father was the first Professor of Music in Trinity College and the Duke was famously musical. Beethoven’s orchestral piece "Wellington’s Victory" is said to have made its composer more money than any other work.


  • #70
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,672 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    I think it's marvellous that we consider Wellington's comment a snub against us when DOC actually meant to snub him in reverse by saying. We should allow this historical inaccuracy to stand.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #71
    grassylawn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 489 ✭✭grassylawn


    Cork is called the Rebel County because of its resistance to British rule.

    It is called that by Henry VII because it sent two pretenders during his reign.
    https://www.corkbeo.ie/news/history/real-reason-cork-called-rebel-16323863


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  • #72
    saabsaab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,238 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    grassylawn wrote: »
    Cork is called the Rebel County because of its resistance to British rule.

    It is called that by Henry VII because it sent two pretenders during his reign.
    https://www.corkbeo.ie/news/history/real-reason-cork-called-rebel-16323863


    It's probably now called that still because of the resistance!


  • #73
    coolbeans
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,124 ✭✭✭coolbeans


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    That many Irish people of sallow skin must descend from survivors of the Spanish Armada.

    This comes up a lot now in discussing the ethnicity results of DNA tests.

    Sallow doesn't mean what you think it means... at least everywhere except Ireland it means sickly looking or jaundiced.


  • #74
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,676 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    coolbeans wrote: »
    Sallow doesn't mean what you think it means... at least everywhere except Ireland it means sickly looking or jaundiced.
    And it's etymologically related to the Irish salach, dirty!

    In what is basically a racist usage, it came to be applied to the brownish or yellowish skin tones of Mediterranean and Middle Eastern people, the implication being that these people were naturally unclean.


  • #75
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    A controversial one here, that the Examiner (and all other outlets) recently reported:
    The Galway historian, whose research established that 796 children were buried in a septic tank at a former mother and baby home in Tuam

    The "800 babies in a septic tank" went round the world and has been almost universally accepted as established fact among the public and the media, and has been discussed a lot in recent weeks.

    This is not the case at all and the lady who "established" this, never said or argued that 800 babies were dumped in a septic tank.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-the-trouble-with-the-septic-tank-story-1.1823393


  • #76
    saabsaab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,238 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Per IT.


    'Excavations of the site in 2017 showed “significant quantities of human remains” in a 20-chamber underground structure near a decommissioned sewage tank. DNA analysis confirmed the ages of the dead children ranged from 35 weeks gestation to three years and were buried chiefly in the 1950s.'


  • #77
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    saabsaab wrote: »
    Per IT.


    'Excavations of the site in 2017 showed “significant quantities of human remains” in a 20-chamber underground structure near a decommissioned sewage tank. DNA analysis confirmed the ages of the dead children ranged from 35 weeks gestation to three years and were buried chiefly in the 1950s.'
    Yes, but it is a "commonly believed historical inaccuracy" that 800 babies were dumped into a septic tank in Tuam. The historian "behind" the claim never said it and doesn't believe it, yet it gets reported as "established" fact, as the Examiner put it. (None of this means that terrible things didn't happen, but we are talking about inaccuracies that are commonly held here).


  • #78
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,872 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Richard Pryor wasn't addicted to cocaine. He just loved the way it smelled.


  • #79
    saabsaab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,238 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    John Wayne fought in world war two.


  • #80
    Caquas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭Caquas


    grassylawn wrote: »
    Cork is called the Rebel County because of its resistance to British rule.

    It is called that by Henry VII because it sent two pretenders during his reign.
    https://www.corkbeo.ie/news/history/real-reason-cork-called-rebel-16323863

    I see a lot of similar claims online but none of them cite any references to "rebel county" before the 20th. century. Perkin Warbeck did arrive in Cork and start his campaign but I haven't even seen a convincing source for the phrase "Rebel City", which Henry VII allegedly used in relation to Cork City.

    These events may have been the source of Waterford's rivalry with Cork.

    http://www.waterfordmuseum.ie/exhibit/web/Display/article/334/6/Lewiss_Topographical_Dictionary__Waterford_City_Lambert_Simnel__Perkin_Warbeck.html


  • #81
    Oink
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 2,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Oink


    saabsaab wrote: »
    John Wayne fought in world war two.

    If I remember correctly they threatened to sue him into the ground if he tried to leave the cinema business to go a-warrin’. Or something to that effect.


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  • #82
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Nero fiddled while Rome burns

    Julius Caesar was emperor


  • #83
    saabsaab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,238 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Oink wrote: »
    If I remember correctly they threatened to sue him into the ground if he tried to leave the cinema business to go a-warrin’. Or something to that effect.


    Never knew that heard he was having an affair with a starlet at the time. Might have been arranged by the studios to keep him.


  • #84
    grassylawn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 489 ✭✭grassylawn


    Caquas wrote: »
    I see a lot of similar claims online but none of them cite any references to "rebel county" before the 20th. century. Perkin Warbeck did arrive in Cork and start his campaign but I haven't even seen a convincing source for the phrase "Rebel City", which Henry VII allegedly used in relation to Cork City.

    These events may have been the source of Waterford's rivalry with Cork.

    http://www.waterfordmuseum.ie/exhibit/web/Display/article/334/6/Lewiss_Topographical_Dictionary__Waterford_City_Lambert_Simnel__Perkin_Warbeck.html
    Dunno. It's on wikipedia it cites The Penguin Encyclopedia of Places as the source. That's by John Paxton who is a historian with lots of publications. Google Books tells me the book does have a bit about Cork that includes the term "Rebel County", but doesn't let me read the page.


  • #85
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    For over 800 years, the british army oppressed the irish people. It all started with great potato famine of 1916, when the british stole all our food. And when we were too starving and too weak to fight, they stole the 7 counties of ulster.


  • #86
    saabsaab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,238 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    For over 800 years, the british army oppressed the irish people. It all started with great potato famine of 1916, when the british stole all our food. And when we were too starving and too weak to fight, they stole the 7 counties of ulster.


    I see what you did there! Fair enough but change the details a bit and it's all true.


  • #87
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    Indeed. And another nugget of barstool republican wisdom, usually stated as absolute fact....Anglo Irish Bank was set up by the Brits to ruin the country to get us back into the Commonwealth – sure just look at it’s name!


  • #88
    saabsaab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,238 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    Indeed. And another nugget of barstool republican wisdom, usually stated as absolute fact....Anglo Irish Bank was set up by the Brits to ruin the country to get us back into the Commonwealth – sure just look at it’s name!


    New one to me!


    Still one million died of hunger and one million plus emigrated then or soon after. All under British Rule no getting away from that fact.


  • #89
    Caquas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭Caquas


    grassylawn wrote: »
    Dunno. It's on wikipedia it cites The Penguin Encyclopedia of Places as the source. That's by John Paxton who is a historian with lots of publications. Google Books tells me the book does have a bit about Cork that includes the term "Rebel County", but doesn't let me read the page.

    Wikipedia is only as good as its sources and its article on Cork is particularly weak in that respect. No doubt the Paxton book mentions Cork as the Rebel County but that book is recent (1999) and I doubt it gives any pre-20th. C. source.

    The more I look at it, the more I think there is no basis for claims that this phrase was applied to Cork in earlier times. Conceivably, Cork City may have been called a “rebel city” during the Perkin Warbeck rebellion but no one has found an historical source for that claim and, even if proven, it is totally removed from the modern usage.

    A good example of the kind of fake history this thread is meant to expose, but in the opposite sense to that proposed by earlier posts here and elsewhere https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=91333776

    The phrase “rebel county” was used in the U.S. during and after the Civil War, where States bordering the Confederacy had local areas with strong Confederate sympathies. I wonder if this usage influenced the subsequent use in Cork during and after the War of Independence. (This suggestion is not linked to the use of the Confederate flag by Cork supporters - that is very recent, no earlier that the 1970s.)


  • #90
    grassylawn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 489 ✭✭grassylawn


    Caquas wrote: »
    Wikipedia is only as good as its sources and its article on Cork is particularly weak in that respect. No doubt the Paxton book mentions Cork as the Rebel County but that book is recent (1999) and I doubt it gives any pre-20th. C. source.

    The more I look at it, the more I think there is no basis for claims that this phrase was applied to Cork in earlier times. Conceivably, Cork City may have been called a “rebel city” during the Perkin Warbeck rebellion but no one has found an historical source for that claim and, even if proven, it is totally removed from the modern usage.

    A good example of the kind of fake history this thread is meant to expose, but in the opposite sense to that proposed by earlier posts here and elsewhere https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=91333776

    The phrase “rebel county” was used in the U.S. during and after the Civil War, where States bordering the Confederacy had local areas with strong Confederate sympathies. I wonder if this usage influenced the subsequent use in Cork during and after the War of Independence. (This suggestion is not linked to the use of the Confederate flag by Cork supporters - that is very recent, no earlier that the 1970s.)
    I don't think it is fake.

    The article on Perkin Warbeck lists the Independent as a source. Not saying that is definitive proof...

    https://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/if-not-for-collins-why-is-it-called-the-rebel-county-29469436.html

    Here is a longer version of the article on the journalist's blog. It's a good read. The journalist invites comments. You could ask him what his source is

    http://josefoshea.blogspot.com/2015/03/perkin-warbeck-male-model-who-fought.html


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  • #91
    saabsaab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,238 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    grassylawn wrote: »
    I don't think it is fake.

    The article on Perkin Warbeck lists the Independent as a source. Not saying that is definitive proof...

    https://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/if-not-for-collins-why-is-it-called-the-rebel-county-29469436.html

    Here is a longer version of the article on the journalist's blog. It's a good read. The journalist invites comments. You could ask him what his source is

    http://josefoshea.blogspot.com/2015/03/perkin-warbeck-male-model-who-fought.html


    You could say Cork have been rebels all the time.


  • #92
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,512 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    In spite of several memorials and at least one popular song, you would be lead to believe Ireland had more sympathy for the Republican side of the Spanish Civil War but the reverse was actually true at the time.
    Many more Irishmen were prepared to fight for Franco than for the Republicans but that uncomfortable fact is largely forgotten today.


  • #93
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,676 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    In spite of several memorials and at least one popular song, you would be lead to believe Ireland had more sympathy for the Republican side of the Spanish Civil War . . . .
    Interestingly, I have never been led to believe this, or met anyone who appears to believe this.

    Perhaps the commonly-believed inaccuracy is not that "Ireland had more sympathy for the republican side", but that "it is widely believed that Ireland had more sympathy for the republican side"! :)


  • #94
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,512 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Stain removal or whitewashing?

    https://www.limerickpost.ie/2014/09/18/spanish-civil-war-memorial-removes-stain-of-shame-in-limerick/


  • #95
    Widdensushi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,298 ✭✭✭Widdensushi


    Not historical but a fable that has been turned into fact, I once heard a mother telling her daughter that women have more ribs than men, I corrected her but she was adamant that it was because God used Adams rib to make eve. I don't know if she ever learned the truth but she was passing the misinformation on to the next generation.


  • #96
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,164 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    tabbey wrote: »
    A lot of such quotes were actually from O'Connell, "to hell or to Connaught " being another.

    mr full of **** o'connell , the great waffler


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  • #97
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,164 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    silliussoddius wrote: »
    What is current thinking of what happened them?

    it was shakespeare that made up the story


  • #98
    Poor Uncle Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,546 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    A common American misconception, that WW2 started in 1941.


  • #99
    banie01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,932 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »
    A common American misconception, that WW2 started in 1941.

    A common European one is that it started in 1939.
    Most east Asians would give 1937.


  • #100
    Poor Uncle Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,546 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    banie01 wrote: »
    A common European one is that it started in 1939.
    Most east Asians would give 1937.

    There's also the thought thread that it should be just called "Part 2", at any rate it didn't start in 1941.


  • #101
    Jim_Hodge
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,218 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    Widdensushi wrote: »
    Not historical but a fable that has been turned into fact, I once heard a mother telling her daughter that women have more ribs than men, I corrected her but she was adamant that it was because God used Adams rib to make eve. I don't know if she ever learned the truth but she was passing the misinformation on to the next generation.

    But strangely cervical ribs (or extra ribs) are much more common in women than men and agenesis (being born with one less rib) is more common in men.


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