Home heating automation

maxamillius · 04-05-2021 12:42pm

deezell wrote: »

There is. Here;
http://topline.ie/plumbing-heating/plumbing/pipe-fittings/valves/easi-heat/thermostatic-cylinder-valve
It's self explanatory, it will limit the cylinder HW temperature, useful in gravity/pumped systems where the HW is always heated when the CH is on.

Bypass/ venting or rad required for a solid fuel source.

Interesting, never seen those before. Gets me thinking a Tado version where it can call the boiler wirelessly etc might be useful?!

Louisemurp · 04-05-2021 10:31pm

electrofelix wrote: »

Previously before selecting the honeywell evohome, I got a quote on splitting the house into 3 zones for the EPH Ember. At the time they didn't have any support for individual TRVs on radiators so I dropped it due to cost of reworking the plumbing and limitations in that to heat any single room in the downstairs or upstairs zones, you have to heat all of it.

Personally due to the layout of our house and mixed usage between upstairs/downstairs, I wouldn't change my mind now if I had to go back and do it again. I can use the study in the morning at weekends and just turn on the heating for just that room for a couple of hours without heating the rest of the house unless it needs it, and that room is a little colder than the rest.

Looking at the cost of parts

https://www.screwfix.ie/p/eph-controls-s-plan-3-zone-rf-control-pack/588HK puts the ember system at ~€500 but no TRVs mentioned.

For the evohome system you'll want the control unit, hot water, a motorized valve for the hot water, and some number of TRVs so it's cost will depend on how many radiators you have.

I originally got a starter pack from https://theevohomeshop.co.uk/honeywell-home-evohome-connected-value-packs/75-honeywell-evohome-wi-fi-connected-value-pack-a.html and added a motorized valve and 3 additional TRVs to it. Not sure if they have the VAT sorted for Ireland there yet. I would contact them to be sure before buying.

By comparison getting the different parts from screwfix looks a lot more expensive to me:
control: €307 https://www.screwfix.ie/p/honeywell-home-evohome-wi-fi-connected-thermostat-pack/4512h
hot water: €116 https://www.screwfix.ie/p/honeywell-home-evohome-hot-water-kit/8406h
1x Motorized valve (hot water): €100 https://www.screwfix.ie/p/honeywell-home-v4043h-2-port-motorised-valve-22mm-22mm-compression/31480
4xTRVs: €294 https://www.screwfix.ie/p/honeywell-home-evohome-radiator-multi-zone-kit/5769H

If you go the honeywell/tado approach for the heating control grant the plumber we got indicated that we would need the automatic TRVs on all radiators in the house to comply. I'm not entirely sure that is actually needed as not having one on some radiators just means they won't activate the heating to warm up that area. So when pricing I'd assume you need the motorized ones for all radiators and if you can skip one subsequently and leave it as a partial heat dump with a manual TRV instead it will be a bonus.

The ability to get a starter pack or not may change your mind on the cost.

While even the EPH Ember system will help with heating your house more efficiently, I think they are really missing out on not integrating motorized radiator TRVs as an option. What I saw from the app looked slicker than what I have with the honeywell mobile app, however tbh, the wall control unit works really well in laying out the schedule so I can live with the app being less polished.

Looking at the EPH Ember system I'm not seeing much mention about TRVs being integrated with it, so are these manual TRVs that you set in the room to get the desired temperature and then the 3 zone controls manage when the heat is enabled?

To give you something to compare, have a 3 bed house with 1 ensuite, main bathroom, large downstairs study, separate utility room with adjoining bathroom, kitchen/dinning area, and sitting room. Since the last week of Dec we've spend a total of €430 on heating oil, €150 of that being 2 weeks ago as we're just looking to keep some oil in the tank until the replacement is installed and that was the smallest amount we could get. Both working full time from home, so using the house 100% of the time, and €280 did us for just under 4 months.

We have 2 offices at home at the moment, so the honeywell system has been really helpful in being able to heat the downstairs hallway, study (office 1) and upstairs box (office 2) during the day, without needing to heat the rest of the house until evening when the heating comes on for a while in the main bedroom before 6pm to get it to the desired temp for an hour, and at the same time the kitchen and sitting room are also brought up to the desired temp, while both offices turn off. There are 11 TRVs in the house in addition to the motorized valve for the hot water, to cover all radiators.

I nearly forgot to mention, while the rest of the house isn't kept warm during the day, the system does ensure everywhere is kept at a baseline temp of 18C with the exception of the utility which we leave at 17C all the time. Even if we leave for a few days it can keep the house at 16C, or when it's quite warm outside we can quickly ask it to drop the temp by 3C to the min of 16C everywhere with a single option select. So the house never gets really really cold unless we ever run out of oil.

The other thing, I nearly forgot about was there is no immersion control for the honeywell system. That's the only piece to me that is missing. So we have a manual timer unit for that, but I'm sure I can probably rig something with a home automation system in the future to sort it out. For the most part we don't use it at all except if we need a quick boost combined with the oil heating to get a lot of hot water in a real hurry.

Interesting read ! Thanks very much for the detailed reply @electrofelix. We are currently torn between installing Honeywell or Drayton if going the smart TRV route with no zoning OR install the 3 way zone & 2x Hive's OR just Drayton thermostat with manual TRV with option of smart ones down the line... my head is ready to explode as is my husbands!

Interestingly my husband rang EPH today & they said they are currently in the middle of designing smart TRV's and due out in the next 12 months BUT we still find there system very outdated & not sure it would be even be 12 months or longer.

The idea of heating just the rooms you want whilst keeping the house at a certain minimum temperature is VERY appealing I must say but only if the system worked flawless 24/7 ðŸ€” I got a quote today for the supply & fit of the Honeywell Evo of 2k ouch ... not sure if that includes the grant... hoping not! We would need 14 smart TRV's (4bed, 3bath dormer).

That's some going with the oil! I have no idea how much we have gone through but saved a fortune by installing the Grant vortex condenser boiler, it's been running on less than a 1/4 a tank for well over a month... now I say it, will probably wake up & it's gone !

deezell · 04-05-2021 11:01pm

maxamillius wrote: »

Interesting, never seen those before. Gets me thinking a Tado version where it can call the boiler wirelessly etc might be useful?!

Tbh, a single motorised valve mounted in the same location, triggered by a mechanical cylinder stat, will do exactly the same thing, plus the valve relay can call the boiler. About the same work to install, and about the same materials cost. As it's electrically operated, it can also be integrated with a Tado or other HW timer relay.
The stated advantage of the Thermocoupled valve is that it's passive, no wiring required, just insert in line with the cylinder hot flow in. It will prevent overheating of the HW, but will not call the boiler when it opens, nor will it cut the boiler when it closes, which is an issue on a boiler controlled by a HW only timer cycle. With no cylinder stat to cut the boiler other than its inbuilt limit stat, the boiler will cycle on and off until the HW timer event expires. A cylinder stat with a motorised valve is the way to go, heating the HW and calling the boiler only when required, but I see the simple appeal of the thermocouple, I think I've seen it once only in all the queries posted here.

Blowheads · 05-05-2021 4:59pm

Just an update, we got the Drayton Wiser kit installed a week now. So far so good
Am liking it much more than the Nest
Controls HW
I only purchased 1 TRV but will purchase more as we go along, they are a very simple replacement for the existing manual TRV were have

electrofelix · 06-05-2021 10:28am

Louisemurp wrote: »

Interestingly my husband rang EPH today & they said they are currently in the middle of designing smart TRV's and due out in the next 12 months BUT we still find there system very outdated & not sure it would be even be 12 months or longer.

I recall there was mention back when I got the honeywell system that EPH were looking at smart TRVs, that was in 2019.

Louisemurp wrote: »

The idea of heating just the rooms you want whilst keeping the house at a certain minimum temperature is VERY appealing I must say but only if the system worked flawless 24/7 �� I got a quote today for the supply & fit of the Honeywell Evo of 2k ouch ... not sure if that includes the grant... hoping not! We would need 14 smart TRV's (4bed, 3bath dormer).

That quote seems a little off depending on what exactly they are including. Off in that it seems a tight to be replacing the radiators valves as well as the head unit, and too high if they aren't. I've put some figures below based on being able to source value packs, which presumably a dedicated fitter should be able to do.

https://www.jtmplumbing.co.uk/central-heating-controls-valves-c436/honeywell-evohome-smart-system-c417/honeywell-home-evopack7-evohome-base-pack-12-hr92-multi-zone-1-hot-water-kit-p18924 contains the hot water kit along with 12 TRVs for £760. Assuming they either handle VAT for Ireland or you could get them to sell exVAT and then pay the VAT on import looking at £973.85 to cover the pack + 2 additional TRVs, motorised valve, and wall mounting unit. So that's about €1,124. Add VAT and it's €1371, so €1400 for parts. Maybe €50 more for pipe replacement for the motorized valve or if I've missed something. Puts it at €1450. If they are also replacing the radiator valves, that's probably another €350. So say about €1800 for parts if replacing the radiator valves not just the head unit, as well as adding the motorized valve, leaves only €200 for labour, which seems a little on the tight side. I could be a little low/high on estimating the parts, but it all depends on what they can be picked up for. The alternative of €1450 if just replacing the head units and putting the valve on the hot water means charging €550 for labour, which seems excessive to me. I know there needs to be an electrician involved, but time/effort wise only having to partially drain and refill the heating system to be able to install the valve for the cylinder along with some pipes for by-passing if needed shouldn't take that long.

Maybe there is additional costs on getting the honeywell system, but for a supplier I don't think VAT should be an issue sourcing from the UK as they should get it exVAT and then apply the correct rate for here, and I was assuming that these are all either zero rated or very low on import duties.

Worth digging in to understand what is getting done as part of the quote.

If it includes fitting the motorized valve, and replacing the radiator valves in addition to the head units, without applying the grant, I'd say it's very competitive, and it would be difficult to match getting the parts yourself and asking another plumber/electrician to do the necessary work.

The main reason to consider replacing the valves will depend on the age of your radiators. The older the valve is the more likely it is to require more effort on the head unit motor to open up, have some stickiness, etc. So greater chance of wearing out the motor on the head unit and or eating batteries. But if the radiators + valves are fairly recent, there should be no need to worry. I don't have an exact idea, someone else might be able to provide a better idea of their lifespan. I've read that it should be about 10 years, so I'd say if

years old, probably no point, >10 years worth replacing now when the system is going to be at least partially drained to fit the motorized valve. In between, depends on recommendations around lifespan and budget.

Louisemurp wrote: »

That's some going with the oil! I have no idea how much we have gone through but saved a fortune by installing the Grant vortex condenser boiler, it's been running on less than a 1/4 a tank for well over a month... now I say it, will probably wake up & it's gone !

As we got our boiler replaced at the same time, I can't say how much is due to improvement in efficiency there vs the heating controls, also got the walls and attic insulated around the same time. So we had 3 improvements and a single BER rating done afterwards. They probably all contribute, not just the controls.

I suspect the more someone is remaining around the house, probably the better the more advanced controls work out. Might just have been very fortunate in timing to have this for working from home full time. Though in my case it looks like working from home will continue for about 60-80% of my time in the future even after everyone returns to the office, so it'll remain useful.

Louisemurp · 06-05-2021 7:04pm

Hive controls... no digital temperature display but there is with EPH Ember, anyone find a way around this with an add on? Would be nice to know what temp the tank is on without having to blindly boost it ðŸ€”

deezell · 06-05-2021 7:58pm

Louisemurp wrote: »

Hive controls... no digital temperature display but there is with EPH Ember, anyone find a way around this with an add on? Would be nice to know what temp the tank is on without having to blindly boost it &#55356;&#56340;

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thermometer-Temperature-Bimetal-Stainless-Surface/dp/B01N8SQS54

Louisemurp · 06-05-2021 8:28pm

deezell wrote: »

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thermometer-Temperature-Bimetal-Stainless-Surface/dp/B01N8SQS54

Bit of a pain... would be handy having it on the app to see do I need to boost it or not. Can't really plan when the little ones need a bath

deezell · 06-05-2021 9:31pm

Louisemurp wrote: »

Bit of a pain... would be handy having it on the app to see do I need to boost it or not. Can't really plan when the little ones need a bath

Just fit a manual thermostat to the cylinder, set it to call the boiler when HW temperature drops below your chosen temperature, it will keep the water at a constant temperature. Trying to second guess your hot water requirements is a habit from the 70s, it doesn't cost that much to keep a constant supply of HW in the cylinder. You can use the timer also for the sake of saving a few cent. If it's well insulated the losses are trivial. If it's an old type bare copper cylinder, get a couple of lagging jackets, seal them on the joints with duct tape. Using a timer alone is not a smart way to heat HW, the cylinder stat will cut the boiler during a timed heating event, or bring it back on if there's a sudden drop from HW usage.

deezell · 06-05-2021 9:52pm

Bit of Tado value here.
https://www.tado.com/ie-en/bundles-ec?utm_campaign=maypromo2021_bundles&utm_medium=email&utm_source=intercom

Louisemurp · 06-05-2021 11:48pm

deezell wrote: »

Just fit a manual thermostat to the cylinder, set it to call the boiler when HW temperature drops below your chosen temperature, it will keep the water at a constant temperature. Trying to second guess your hot water requirements is a habit from the 70s, it doesn't cost that much to keep a constant supply of HW in the cylinder. You can use the timer also for the sake of saving a few cent. If it's well insulated the losses are trivial. If it's an old type bare copper cylinder, get a couple of lagging jackets, seal them on the joints with duct tape. Using a timer alone is not a smart way to heat HW, the cylinder stat will cut the boiler during a timed heating event, or bring it back on if there's a sudden drop from HW usage.

Good to know! The not knowing how long it will keep hot was annoying me thinking the temp would tell me! Its a new rapid recovery stainless steel one, well insulated. I could probably even schedule on the app when to come on if falls below say 60. Yes 70's .. exactly.. I just want hot water constantly on demand, no turning it on like an emersion or checking its temperature. Thanks for that

electrofelix · 07-05-2021 1:45pm

Louisemurp wrote: »

Its a new rapid recovery stainless steel one, well insulated.

If it's one of the ones that has a metal external casing it likely has a pocket for a thermostat probe to be placed inside to pick up the temp.

Our one calls it an "aquastat pocket" and it's used to report the temp back to the control unit.

However I have noticed a down side to these, in that they wouldn't be able to detect the immersion heating the water only the boiler due to the immersion coil is placed higher than the pocket on ours.

Louisemurp · 07-05-2021 8:30pm

electrofelix wrote: »

If it's one of the ones that has a metal external casing it likely has a pocket for a thermostat probe to be placed inside to pick up the temp.

Our one calls it an "aquastat pocket" and it's used to report the temp back to the control unit.

However I have noticed a down side to these, in that they wouldn't be able to detect the immersion heating the water only the boiler due to the immersion coil is placed higher than the pocket on ours.

Great to know! Thanks so much ðŸ™

poker--addict · 17-05-2021 3:42pm

We got a quote recently for full heat genius system around 3.5K after grant. That was for about 15 rads and the hot water control. On a gas system I think it is hard to make the economics work on some of the quotes around. Possibly a different equation with oil.

Clareman · 17-05-2021 4:12pm

poker--addict wrote: »

We got a quote recently for full heat genius system around 3.5K after grant. That was for about 15 rads and the hot water control. On a gas system I think it is hard to make the economics work on some of the quotes around. Possibly a different equation with oil.

Does that include a new boiler and/or rads?

poker--addict · 17-05-2021 4:54pm

no. But i understood in particularly the water setup would require addition of things like expansion vessel, which some didn't quote.

deezell · 17-05-2021 11:12pm

poker--addict wrote: »

We got a quote recently for full heat genius system around 3.5K after grant. That was for about 15 rads and the hot water control. On a gas system I think it is hard to make the economics work on some of the quotes around. Possibly a different equation with oil.

Were you adding a stove to your existing sys

poker--addict · 17-05-2021 11:21pm

It seemed excessive, but electric Ireland's quote for the honeywell setup was close to 3 from recollection too. In any event, here i am looking at TADOs and their sale!

poker--addict · 17-05-2021 11:43pm

deezell wrote: »

Bit of Tado value here.
https://www.tado.com/ie-en/bundles-ec?utm_campaign=maypromo2021_bundles&utm_medium=email&utm_source=intercom

Looks like it is rare to see them at a better price?

deezell · 18-05-2021 12:40am

poker--addict wrote: »

We got a quote recently for full heat genius system around 3.5K after grant. That was for about 15 rads and the hot water control. On a gas system I think it is hard to make the economics work on some of the quotes around. Possibly a different equation with oil.

Were you adding a stove to your existing system? You mention an additional expansion tank. If the gas circulation system is not already sealed, it would not need to be sealed retrospectively. If the gas boiler circulation is vented, then both stove and boiler can be combined with a mixing manifold or equaliser tank. The heat genie is just a heat exchanger to transfer heat from a vented circulation to a sealed circulation system, plus it has an extra heat exchange circuit to drain off hot flow in the event of stove overheat. See their diagram for vented stove to sealed gas. It's design purpose is to facilitate the introduction of a SF stove into a controlled boiler heating system, gas/oil vented/unvented with the minimum of charges to the existing system. It does not require replacement of the HW cylinder, as it precludes gravity feed of HW from the stove. As there is no gravity heat sink, rad or cylinder coil, in the event if power failure with a burning stove the only method of heat dissapation is via the thermal valve which pours hot water down a drain. If your current gas system is unvented, then you will need a heat exchanger of some sort to combine both circulation systems. If the gas circulation system is vented (you mention some quotes which include an expansion chamber, indicating conversion to unvented circulation), then both stove and gas can share the same circulation, you can use a manifold tank to combine the flows, and its possible to connect this manifold in a manner that would permit gravity heat sinking to the hw cylinder. The heat genie can save on floor excavations required for gravity flow to same floor HW cylinders, but there will still be substantial pipework to combine the systems, in particular the safety stove overheat drain in the event of a power cut while the stove is burning.
It might be simpler and more economical to just install a smaller non boiler stove, what with the push against solid fuel burning. it's currently barely economical to heat from stove coal/ wood compared to gas and actually more expensive than oil. Unless you have a cheap supply of timber, or perhaps you are using lpg and not mains gas, three grand sounds like a lot of money for the occasional boost a modest stove would give to a 15 rad system. A SF stove that could actually heat 15 rads unaided would need a barrow of fuel nightly, and a bucket for the ashes the next day.

https://www.systemlink.ie/heat-genie.html

poker--addict · 18-05-2021 12:54am

I thought you were joking about the price with reference to a stove :-) no stove. Gas boiler (not a combi), you may be right though as there was also something about auto by pass and vents.

deezell · 18-05-2021 4:15am

poker--addict wrote: »

I thought you were joking about the price with reference to a stove :-) no stove. Gas boiler (not a combi), you may be right though as there was also something about auto by pass and vents.

Ah, I'm on the wrong track altogether. I reread your previous posts, I misread Heat Genius as Heat Genie, two completely different things. Heat genius is a hub and TRV system. similar to Tado, Drayton. Self install for 15 rads and HW control running around £1050 for the parts, about €1250. Do you need to get TRV valves fitted to all the rads? You must. There's no plumbing required otherwise, so €3500 plus grant leaves a lot of change for what is a DIYable install. Bypass not necessary as the boiler won't fire if all the rads are off, but it wouldn't harm to leave one rad or a towel rail open.

poker--addict · 18-05-2021 8:51am

I am thinking to leave a utility or unused en-suite rad open as having the towel rails under control may be useful, however also need to check if it’s possible to add TADO to the rails. I will have to change all the rad fittings. Do you think it would fall under the grant?

Clareman · 18-05-2021 8:57am

I got the Tado installed recently, 9 rads needed valves replaced and I put in the Tado TRV's myself, have to say it was a surprisingly easy job, I'd nearly have the confidence to do it myself in the future, identify the hot inlet for each radiator, turn off the water, drain the system (take off the radiator closest to the boiler and connect a hose to it), replace the valves, turn the water (pray for no leaks) and you're good to go.

I spent about an hour setting up the smart schedule, still tweaking it but stuff like open window detection is a brilliant feature, 1 thing is that the boiler is probably firing more often now but not for as long, 1 great benefit is I've is constant hot water

chris_ie · 18-05-2021 9:22am

Still no further forward here. We've decided to get a new well dug so that's kinda put this on the back burner! There's always something...

deezell · 18-05-2021 9:29am

poker--addict wrote: »

I am thinking to leave a utility or unused en-suite rad open as having the towel rails under control may be useful, however also need to check if it’s possible to add TADO to the rails. I will have to change all the rad fittings. Do you think it would fall under the grant?

The job as a whole would, as multizoning control. The grant is still €700 AFAIK, so the quote you have is €4200 gross, leaving about €2700 for installation, assuming that materials runs to about, €1500. €2700 would swap a lot of rad valves. You can see why lads like Clareman above done it himself. What would be an honest price of labour for swapping out rad valves by 15, leaving aside the valve cost of €6-7 each. After that it's all techie fitting of TRV heads, configuration, and wiring a controller to fire boiler/open HW valve.

Clareman · 18-05-2021 9:41am

All this speak of grants has me curious, I picked up 9 TRVs and the relay not too long ago, would I be able to claim anything back for them? Energia installed a Netamo for me years ago so I assumed they used the grant on that.

electrofelix · 18-05-2021 10:35am

Clareman wrote: »

All this speak of grants has me curious, I picked up 9 TRVs and the relay not too long ago, would I be able to claim anything back for them? Energia installed a Netamo for me years ago so I assumed they used the grant on that.

As long as it's fitted by someone registered with the seai, you can source the components yourself. Shouldn't be any issue unless the grant has already been claimed. Though the grant can only be claimed if a BER assessment was done afterwards, so if Energia supplied one after the fitting very likely it was claimed.

I purchased the honeywell controller and TRVs myself and got a plumber & electrician to fit them. Though I had the plumber and electrician in to do other work around the heating system and moving some electrics around, so it wasn't just a case that they were just fitting the system for me.

deezell · 18-05-2021 12:33pm

They'd be cagey enough about just signing off on the job for just the labour of wiring in the boiler switch/ ext kit/ heatlink depending on brand. The revenue would assume their was a charge of well over the grant amount. If you have to pay over €700 for a couple of hours work, just to get €700, then another €250 for a BER cert, it makes the grant scheme look like a con. Don't get me started on the other scam used by utilities to claim back large amounts of EU cash on your behalf because they've fitted some dumb elecronic single zone stat worth €20 which has all sorts of magical properties and supporting stats which claim to save energy usage. Utility profits, you get a shiny cheap wall stat, which you dumping frustration a few years later.

DrPhilG · 20-05-2021 5:40pm

Another wee Drayton Wiser question...

I have 3 rads in the hallway. All 3 are using wiser a rad TRVs and all 3 are located in the "Hallway" room in the app.

Currently 1 is piping, 1 is hot and one is stone cold. They're all in the same heating zone.

Does each rad operate independently for related to the temperature at its own location? Or should the app take an average of the 3 and turn on all 3 til the average hits target?

Or would I need a room stat to act as Master for that to work?

Home heating automation

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