Irish Rail Future Outlined and No Dart Underground Mentioned?

bk · 05-07-2017 11:56am

lxflyer wrote: »

That article is a sales pitch from the CEO for what he needs to keep the existing railway working.

DART Underground is a separate project that is currently under review - I don't see it as having vanished at all.

I'm not so sure about that. After all he did mention projects that are well underway (e.g. the 2700's refurbs) so it very suspicious that he didn't mention at all what should be one of the most important projects for IR and one that you would think they would want to give the most publicity to, to push over the line, rather then long term pie in the Sky stuff.

I do wonder if they may have given up on it and are looking at alternatives now!

I also wonder if we will see any more electrification at all?!

If new trains are pushed out to 20 to 30 years from now. EV tech is currently advancing at breakneck speed in cars and buses, so I wonder if by then, we will have full EV trains well developed by then.

All the advantages of electric, without the big capital costs.

Even Hyrbrid-Diesel trains would give you some of the benefits, DART like acceleration - deceleration, without the capital overhead. They could even charge the batteries from the DART overhead wires while running under them, so they would have to use very little Diesel when off the electrified sections of track.

Could help save a lot of infrastructure cost.

marno21 · 05-07-2017 12:03pm

Some amount of absolute garbage on this thread

DART Underground has not been outright cancelled. It's currently having the tunnel element redesigned to cut costs. This would not be happening if it was outright cancelled

It's likely not in IE's immediate plans due to the lack of funding for it at present. If it's built it likely won't be by IE

Stephen15 · 05-07-2017 12:16pm

After reading that article I wonder if IE PR were trying to divert our minds from their horrendous balance sheet, the threat of a insolvency and a possible strike.

LXFlyer · 05-07-2017 12:17pm

bk wrote: »

I'm not so sure about that. After all he did mention projects that are well underway (e.g. the 2700's refurbs) so it very suspicious that he didn't mention at all what should be one of the most important projects for IR and one that you would think they would want to give the most publicity to, to push over the line, rather then long term pie in the Sky stuff.

I do wonder if they may have given up on it and are looking at alternatives now!

I also wonder if we will see any more electrification at all?!

If new trains are pushed out to 20 to 30 years from now. EV tech is currently advancing at breakneck speed in cars and buses, so I wonder if by then, we will have full EV trains well developed by then.

All the advantages of electric, without the big capital costs.

Even Hyrbrid-Diesel trains would give you some of the benefits, DART like acceleration - deceleration, without the capital overhead. They could even charge the batteries from the DART overhead wires while running under them, so they would have to use very little Diesel when off the electrified sections of track.

Could help save a lot of infrastructure cost.

DART Underground most certainly has not gone away.

It's currently under review with regard to costs by the NTA and it is dependent upon specific government funding becoming available. Whether he mentions it or not isn't going to change that.

The article was really focussing on day to day operations and what needs to be done to maintain them. Basically issues that he can get movement on.

Incidentally, the 2700 refurb has not started yet - it is about to go to tender.

Stephen15 · 05-07-2017 12:22pm

I also wonder how long do the Dart 81k class have I know they were given a refurb about ten years ago but surely they'll have to start replacing them in the not so distant future.

devnull · 05-07-2017 12:35pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I also wonder how long do the Dart 81k class have I know they were given a refurb about ten years ago but surely they'll have to start replacing them in the not so distant future.

They're very well built trains and have brothers and sisters still going in Germany and in other countries and they had an excellent refurbishment as well so I don't see them going anywhere in the short-medium term future.

bk · 05-07-2017 12:47pm

lxflyer wrote: »

DART Underground most certainly has not gone away.

It's currently under review with regard to costs by the NTA and it is dependent upon specific government funding becoming available. Whether he mentions it or not isn't going to change that.

The reality seems to be that the government and NTA have little interest in DU. They seem to be focused on MN. I'm not saying it is going away, but I'll be shocked if actual construction of DU actually begins in the next 20 years.

Realistically they will be focused on getting MN done over the next 10 years and after it is complete they might start seriously thinking about DU.

Hardly surprising when you consider then financial, union and pension issues at IR. They won't want to pour 3bn into DU until those issues are first well sorted.

It feels like IR have come to terms with not getting DU in the short term and are now looking at smaller projects that might help improve things in the short term.

Stephen15 wrote: »

I also wonder how long do the Dart 81k class have I know they were given a refurb about ten years ago but surely they'll have to start replacing them in the not so distant future.

Don't electric Metro carriages last much longer then diesel train carriages? I remember reading that carriages operating in New York subway are well over 60 years. They just need refurbs and good to go for another 20.

Stephen15 · 05-07-2017 1:23pm

bk wrote: »

The reality seems to be that the government and NTA have little interest in DU. They seem to be focused on MN. I'm not saying it is going away, but I'll be shocked if actual construction of DU actually begins in the next 20 years.

Realistically they will be focused on getting MN done over the next 10 years and after it is complete they might start seriously thinking about DU.

Hardly surprising when you consider then financial, union and pension issues at IR. They won't want to pour 3bn into DU until those issues are first well sorted.

It feels like IR have come to terms with not getting DU in the short term and are now looking at smaller projects that might help improve things in the short term.

Don't electric Metro carriages last much longer then diesel train carriages? I remember reading that carriages operating in New York subway are well over 60 years. They just need refurbs and good to go for another 20.

DU is completely out of IE of CIE hands its the NTA and DoT that will be funding it and making the decisions about it.

MN in the next ten years I find that hard to believe it will probably take nearly that long to construct.

Yes electric do last longer than diesel but I wouldn't say they'd last over 60 years espeically in a country prone to rust.

bk · 05-07-2017 1:35pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

DU is completely out of IE of CIE hands its the NTA and DoT that will be funding it and making the decisions about it.

Sure, but you would think IR CEO would be wanting to push it in the media to continue to put pressure on the NTA and government to deliver it.

Stephen15 wrote: »

MN in the next ten years I find that hard to believe it will probably take nearly that long to construct.

Exactly, which is why it is very unlikely we will see DU for at least 20.

Stephen15 · 05-07-2017 1:55pm

bk wrote: »

Sure, but you would think IR CEO would be wanting to push it in the media to continue to put pressure on the NTA and government to deliver it.

I don't know how pushed IE are about DU especially considering it may not even be them operating it.

end of the road · 05-07-2017 2:08pm

DU has been reviewed god knows how many times to "cut costs" or for other reasons that will likely mean once the final draft is finished, it ends up being unable to deliver all of the benefits and will need to be sorted out at great cost. typical but not expected.
no doubt once that review is done another one will be. do it right or not at all.

LXFlyer · 05-07-2017 2:09pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I don't know how pushed IE are about DU especially considering it may not even be them operating it.

And where has it been suggested anywhere that IE wouldn't be operating DU?

Jamie2k9 · 05-07-2017 2:10pm

Sure, but you would think IR CEO would be wanting to push it in the media to continue to put pressure on the NTA and government to deliver it.

He is just been realistic, the case isn't strong enough for it. The elephant in the room was the PPT which now has service and there is potential to expand it off peak and the peak service is pretty good at the minute and compare well to existing route frequency. I'm sure with some works around Connolly combined with electrification of Maynooth line and possibly adjustments to the loop line to Glassnavion you can grow the service as required.

LXFlyer · 05-07-2017 2:12pm

bk wrote: »

Sure, but you would think IR CEO would be wanting to push it in the media to continue to put pressure on the NTA and government to deliver it.

Exactly, which is why it is very unlikely we will see DU for at least 20.

I genuinely think that article was about focussing minds on the "here and now" issues - funding the existing infrastructure so that it is maintained safely and getting sufficient rolling stock to reduce overcrowding.

There are limits to how far a semi-state CEO can push his luck with his paymasters. They all know where DU is - the review is underway, let's see what comes out of it.

wordofwarning · 05-07-2017 2:22pm

thomasj wrote: »

Blanch has a population in excess of 100k. Largest suburb in the country.

Blanch has a population of around 70k which is on par with Swords. Throwing money on a Luas line to Blanch(which can be served with a BRT really) does not make economic sense. Most of Cabra to Blanch is green fields. It does not make economic sense spending hundreds of millions on serving fields. There is zero economic benefit running a luas line through a green field

There is point building a ton of luas lines that really should be BRT. It will be harder to getting funding for luas line, it is more disruptive to build and costs more on maintenance/expansion.

The fact is the Government will not spend money on infastructure on Dublin. It is better to have a BRT now, than saying lets wait for the Luas line/metro that will not materialise.

ClovenHoof · 05-07-2017 2:34pm

lxflyer wrote: »

DART Underground most certainly has not gone away.

It's currently under review

In Irish railway investment terms that's merely the difference between a zombie and a corpse sadly.

end of the road · 05-07-2017 2:42pm

wordofwarning wrote: »

Blanch has a population of around 70k which is on par with Swords. Throwing money on a Luas line to Blanch(which can be served with a BRT really) does not make economic sense. Most of Cabra to Blanch is green fields. It does not make economic sense spending hundreds of millions on serving fields. There is zero economic benefit running a luas line through a green field

There is point building a ton of luas lines that really should be BRT. It will be harder to getting funding for luas line, it is more disruptive to build and costs more on maintenance/expansion.

The fact is the Government will not spend money on infastructure on Dublin. It is better to have a BRT now, than saying lets wait for the Luas line/metro that will not materialise.

it actually makes more sense to build a luas line then spending it on a brt, which is effectively a ridiculously expensive bus service and which will probably have to have more money spent on increasing it's capacity a short time down the line. if you want blanch to rely on bus transport only then improving the existing services is the better option. you are not spending hundreds of millions to serve fields, you are spending money on providing high quality transport to a populated area that can future proof it and make it an attractive area to live.
i'm not sure we actually know that building, expanding and maintaining luas lines is more disruptive and costs more then a brt as we haven't built any brt yet.

AlanG · 05-07-2017 3:00pm

wordofwarning wrote: »

Blanch is nothing but a horrible shopping centre that would not look out of place in a state you have never heard of in the US, a few business parks aka glorified industrial estates and a generic low density housing. A BRT is fine for Blanch.

Pretty snobbish and poorly informed opinion - Blanchardstown has the 4th most popular tourist destination in Ireland with the NAC, it also has sports campus Ireland which just opened the largest athletics facility in the country. The center is the number 1 or 2 shopping destination (depending on if you include Westend) in the country so lots of people like or need it. In addition you have many of the highest earners of foreign income based in the are as it is a hub for Tech companies and the Pharma industry. ON top of that you have a major adult hospital and soon will have a major maternity hospital.
The main thing Blanch is missing is a decent train and bus service. and some decent PR to stop the spread of such ill informed opinions.

thomasj · 05-07-2017 3:09pm

wordofwarning wrote: »

Blanch has a population of around 70k which is on par with Swords.

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/population-statistics-27811360.html

Blanchardstown grew by 10% to 100,894 people. It's the biggest single suburb in the greater Dublin area and is larger than most other cities and towns in the State. -

Chivito550 · 05-07-2017 3:17pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

He is just been realistic, the case isn't strong enough for it. The elephant in the room was the PPT which now has service and there is potential to expand it off peak and the peak service is pretty good at the minute and compare well to existing route frequency. I'm sure with some works around Connolly combined with electrification of Maynooth line and possibly adjustments to the loop line to Glassnavion you can grow the service as required.

You serious? Views like this is why Ireland is in the Stone Age.

I take that PPT service to Celbridge once a week. It is about 20% full, it is incredibly slow until it gets past Heuston, it goes all around the world to take you from Connolly to Heuston (which it doesn't even stop at), and it causes delays to other services.

That's a perfectly good alternative to DU alright. Suuuuuuurrre.

Jamie2k9 · 05-07-2017 3:25pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

You serious? Views like this is why Ireland is in the Stone Age.

I take that PPT service to Celbridge once a week. It is about 20% full, it is incredibly slow until it gets past Heuston, it goes all around the world to take you from Connolly to Heuston (which it doesn't even stop at), and it causes delays to other services.

That's a perfectly good alternative to DU alright. Suuuuuuurrre.

DU will not reduce the times that much. The reason it's poorly loaded is be use there is a low population on the route it services unlike this to Newbridge.

LXFlyer · 05-07-2017 3:29pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

You serious? Views like this is why Ireland is in the Stone Age.

I take that PPT service to Celbridge once a week. It is about 20% full, it is incredibly slow until it gets past Heuston, it goes all around the world to take you from Connolly to Heuston (which it doesn't even stop at), and it causes delays to other services.

That's a perfectly good alternative to DU alright. Suuuuuuurrre.

And what time are you travelling on it when it's 20% full?

Chivito550 · 05-07-2017 3:30pm

lxflyer wrote: »

And what time are you travelling on it when it's 20% full?

6:21pm from Tara St. It's great, I sometimes get 4 seats to myself, and always get a seat by the window to charge my phone.

Chivito550 · 05-07-2017 3:35pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

DU will not reduce the times that much. The reason it's poorly loaded is be use there is a low population on the route it services unlike this to Newbridge.

So a fully segregated electrified rail link going from Celbridge to Pearse won't be much quicker than a diesel service which has to take a scenic route around Dublin, share the line with other trains (Maynooth, Sligo etc) and which has to go through the bottleneck of Connolly? What world are you living on?

And throw in frequency of service into the mix too.

Jamie2k9 · 05-07-2017 3:37pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

So a fully segregated electrified rail link going from Celbridge to Pearse won't be much quicker than a diesel service which has to take a scenic route around Dublin and which has to go through the bottleneck of Connolly? What world are you living on?

And throw in frequency of service into the mix too.

Yes it might be marginally quicker, like I already said some improvements between Glassnavin and in Connolly can greatly enhance the service. Also extend the quad track in towards islandbirdge.

Anyway if anything you are much better off putting DU on the long finger or you will just get a watered down version like MN that is planned.

ClovenHoof · 06-07-2017 11:21am

Trying to save millions - even many of the posters on this board are obsessed with this - on Infrastructure project is the reason we are in the **** today.

Spend the money and cut the 'cheaper option' crap.

Yourself isit · 06-07-2017 1:08pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

6:21pm from Tara St. It's great, I sometimes get 4 seats to myself, and always get a seat by the window to charge my phone.

It's totally empty at pearse too ( I don't get on but it's clearly not used).

Yourself isit · 06-07-2017 1:09pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Trying to save millions - even many of the posters on this board are obsessed with this - on Infrastructure project is the reason we are in the **** today.

Spend the money and cut the 'cheaper option' crap.

Why isnt QE used for infrastructure?

Chivito550 · 06-07-2017 1:33pm

Yourself isit wrote: »

It's totally empty at pearse too ( I don't get on but it's clearly not used).

Not sure why people wouldn't use it though. Far easier for me to walk to Tara from Harcourt than to grind my way to Heuston. I bet there's plenty working in IFSC who get LUAS to Heuston out of pure habit / lack of awareness.

In the morning I get the train to Heuston and the LUAS though because the PPT times from Hazelhatch just do not suit for me to get to Harcourt at 9am.

goingnowhere · 06-07-2017 1:57pm

1725 service is a standing room only

Del.Monte · 06-07-2017 2:17pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Trying to save millions - even many of the posters on this board are obsessed with this - on Infrastructure project is the reason we are in the **** today.

Spend the money and cut the 'cheaper option' crap.

And throw in Athenry/Claremorris while you're at it - a drop in the bucket.

dublinman1990 · 06-07-2017 2:54pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Trying to save millions - even many of the posters on this board are obsessed with this - on Infrastructure project is the reason we are in the **** today.

Spend the money and cut the 'cheaper option' crap.

Donohue is not agreeing to doing a capital splurge on infrastructure.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/donohoe-rules-out-capital-splurge-on-infrastructure-1.3145435

BonnieSituation · 06-07-2017 4:40pm

thomasj wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/population-statistics-27811360.html

Sgrand though. They can have fancy buses in Blanch while we upgrade the 13yo Luas Green Line to Metro.

thomasj · 06-07-2017 5:15pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Sgrand though. They can have fancy buses in Blanch while we upgrade the 13yo Luas Green Line to Metro.

see will you be writing that again on boards in 2027!

BonnieSituation · 06-07-2017 5:20pm

thomasj wrote: »

see will you be writing that again on boards in 2027!

Maybe. Probably to rant about Kishoge remaining unopened. But I certainly hope that by the time 2027 comes around I will be living somewhere else.

Maybe ranting on boards.dk about my train to work in Odense being 35 seconds late. Hopefully…

Stephen15 · 06-07-2017 5:24pm

thomasj wrote: »

see will you be writing that again on boards in 2027!

10 years and a couple of Luas extensions later

thomasj · 06-07-2017 5:29pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

10 years and a couple of Luas extensions later

Luas to Swords via the Airport

Infini · 06-07-2017 9:53pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Trying to save millions - even many of the posters on this board are obsessed with this - on Infrastructure project is the reason we are in the **** today.

Spend the money and cut the 'cheaper option' crap.

Infrastructure shouldn't even be considered "loans" or state spending but long term investments, despite all this commotion about new busses the problem is that theres not enough alternative infrastructure in Dublin to compensate for the traffic issues. People arent gonna give up the cars unless theres a more convenient or viable solution and all adding busses does is make the traffic situation worse.

Whats needed is heavy rail (NOT more metro) and expansion of the luas network, IR isnt exactly perfect its got a few muppets running it that just arent suitable for the job and shouldnt be there but the government has compounded the issues as well by just not properly maintaining funding. Blaming the staff isnt the solution either theyre not the ones in charge but the network needs serious reworking improvements and expansion.

MGWR · 07-07-2017 7:14am

BowSideChamp wrote: »

And what light rail currently services Blanchardstown? Probably the largest urban population in Dublin!!

So the reservation for the long-planned Blanchardstown branch was built over? I haven't heard that.

MGWR · 07-07-2017 7:26am

Infini wrote: »

Infrastructure shouldn't even be considered "loans" or state spending but long term investments; despite all this commotion about new buses, the problem is that there's not enough alternative infrastructure in Dublin to compensate for the traffic issues. People aren't gonna give up the cars unless there's a more convenient or viable solution and all adding buses does is make the traffic situation worse.

What's needed is heavy rail (NOT more metro) and expansion of the luas network. IR isn't exactly perfect; it's got a few muppets running it that just aren't suitable for the job and shouldn't be there, but the government has compounded the issues as well by just not properly maintaining funding. Blaming the staff isn't the solution; either they're not the ones in charge but the network needs serious reworking improvements and expansion.

Hard to say "more metro" when there isn't any of it. And Luas is too small capacity-wise, too slow speed-wise in spite of its obvious misnomer (never mind conflicts with road traffic) and too unsafe security-wise. There should be several new lines of underground DART serving new city sections and suburbs in a radial fashion and at least one circular route to connect them further out from the city (of course, the way the government people think, they'll have to start removing bus routes, so watch out for that), and the Luas lines converted to DART if possible (definitely eliminating the surface tram lines in the city at least and going underground with that); indeed the whole thing should have been DART for the sake of having fewer spare parts inventories, not as much duplication of facilities, faster average speeds due to not being caught in road traffic (as with trams), and ease of transfer of equipment from line to line in case of need, but that ship may have sailed.

L1011 · 07-07-2017 8:11am

MGWR wrote: »

So the reservation for the long-planned Blanchardstown branch was built over? I haven't heard that.

Pretty sure it's obstructed in at least one place and it'd have multiple at-grade crossings also

Ireland trains · 06-08-2018 1:09pm

Is the icr new coach order cancelled

BowWow · 06-08-2018 4:25pm

Pardon?

L1011 · 06-08-2018 6:15pm

There wasn't an order or a tender. The plan appears to be cancelled

GM228 · 06-08-2018 6:55pm

Ireland trains wrote: »

Is the icr new coach order cancelled

There was a proposal for such, but it was dropped in favour of the Hybrid project.

Rashers72 · 06-08-2018 7:13pm

So, just to confirm there is not a single order signed for as of today? Assume NTA holding it all up...

GM228 · 06-08-2018 7:19pm

Rashers72 wrote: »

So, just to confirm there is not a single order signed for as of today? Assume NTA holding it all up...

No, there needs to be a tendering process before there can be an order, the Hybrid tender will be issued soon.

Ireland trains · 06-08-2018 7:46pm

Any idea when the tender will go out and how long untill we know the manufacturer

Irish Rail Future Outlined and No Dart Underground Mentioned?

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