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Near Misses Thread Volume 2 (So close you can feel it)

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Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,245 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,053 ✭✭✭cletus


    Does Garda count though?

    I used to live in the Netherlands, whenever I see the polite vests around here for a second I instinctively think Politie (the Dutch for police).
    60 .— (1) A person is guilty of an offense if he or she—

    ( a ) impersonates a member of the Garda Síochána, or

    ( b ) makes any statement or does any act calculated falsely to suggest that he or she is such a member.

    It doesn't specify. I'd imagine it's been left deliberately open so that the Gardai can interpret as necessary
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,346 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    There is a courier company in Dublin that had those Polite high-viz motorbike vests for ages. I assume if there was an issue then they wouldn't have lasted so long.
    I see on their website that they're even selling them! https://www.cyclone.ie/new-products/cyclone-polite-hi-viz
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,245 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    they're in dublin, which is crucial, as the gardai don't use the word 'police' on their vests or livery, so it'd be unreasonable to try to claim you were impersonating them.

    putting 'GADRA' on a vest would be an obvious breach of the act as it's quite clear you want people to think you're a garda at first glance.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,231 ✭✭✭RobertFoster


    I wear a Dublin bus one when cycling in Dublin, busses steer well clear
    The stories I've heard from past and present DB staff, it'd probably make you a target :pac:
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,053 ✭✭✭cletus


    I look forward to hearing all the reasons why the cyclist was wrong to nearly get taken out by the driver cutting into the bike lane with no indication to get past the vehicle turning right ahead. The cyclist gave an audible scream at the time, so I think she got a fair old shock.

    https://streamable.com/trm2vi

    I don't see any reason why people would say the cyclist was in the wrong
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,245 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i suspect the 'i look forward to hearing' was a reference to the previous video where a cyclist and a left turning motorist nearly collided, but where in the previous instance there certainly was not consensus that the motorist was to blame.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Dr_Colossus


    Weepsie wrote: »
    Had a scrote pass me close enough that I could touch the back of his car without having to move my arm an awful lot(or probably half the car of I stretched)

    F*cker had been on my wheel and kept revving behind me and passed me with parked cars to one side and line of traffic on the other. I had the lane. He could've used the entire lane had he waited a second, but didn't want to.

    He didn't like that I could touch his car as a result of his dangerous driving, so pullers over, tried to push me off the bike , got in his car and drove it at me before I think he had a realisation that was a bad idea.

    No camera and it'll just take a but you touched his car Garda for it to be dismissed l

    Touching his car was your means of alerting him of your presence and proof he was driving too close, what were you supposed to do let him crush you against the line of parked cars?

    A couple of months back I slapped the side of a large private bus on the south quays as it drove from lane 2 into 1 where I was cycling before trying to pull in further up to a bus stop. Upon the couple of sharp slaps the driver immediately veered back into lane two and then acknowledged his error. Obvious he never looked/saw me despite broad daylight and a strong front light and the fabled life saved that is a high viz vest. In other words without touching his vehicle I would have been forced off the road and likely pinned against the bus stop.

    So too only in addition to performing a dangerous overtake which should be a fine and penalty points he also assaulted you in trying to knock you off the bike and then threatened you further with his car. Needs taking off the road if we have proper enforcement.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,245 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    where did it happen? i.e. which station will you have to go to?
    Post edited by CramCycle on


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,245 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    or mountjoy maybe?
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,346 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I think this is the map of stations and streets within the district (I'm in the middle of something so can't check)
    https://www.arcgis.com/home/item.html?id=647d12feb1444d63bb24f672ff6d9ffa
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,346 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I had a close encounter this evening on a roundabout (Profile Park roundabout in Clondalikn).
    I was travelling from 6o'clock and coming off at 12o'clock. A driver comes from the business park (@9o'clock) and without stopping or slowing enters the roundabout as I'm passing his junction. The driver proceeds to exit the roundabout at the 12o'clock exit I had been taking. I reckon only for slowing and swerving, I'd be in hospital now.
    The driver didn't appear to look towards me at any stage.
    https://streamable.com/l7p0g7

    Given the likleihood of the gardai doing anything about it, I'm not sure if it's worth the effort of reporting.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,035 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    I had a close encounter this evening on a roundabout (Profile Park roundabout in Clondalikn).
    I was travelling from 6o'clock and coming off at 12o'clock. A driver comes from the business park (@9o'clock) and without stopping or slowing enters the roundabout as I'm passing his junction. The driver proceeds to exit the roundabout at the 12o'clock exit I had been taking. I reckon only for slowing and swerving, I'd be in hospital now.
    The driver didn't appear to look towards me at any stage.
    https://streamable.com/l7p0g7

    Given the likleihood of the gardai doing anything about it, I'm not sure if it's worth the effort of reporting.

    Looks like a typical cycle through Wellington road roundabout in the Park for me :pac:
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,346 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Steoller wrote: »
    Seth, please report it to traffic watch at least.
    Called TW just there.
    Spent about 17 minutes on hold before despair set in and hung up.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,746 ✭✭✭MojoMaker


    :(
    Post edited by CramCycle on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,099 ✭✭✭buffalo


    tnegun wrote: »
    Result! The guard in question couldn't of been more on the ball or interested. I dropped the footage in on USB yesterday, driver produced their docs this morning and was shown the footage. They made some excuses about not being close to me or the approaching cars. Guard is proceeding with a fine for careless driving and said its €120 and 3 points (Online says thats €80 and 2 points) either way the driver will think next time they pass a cyclist.


    https://streamable.com/dmvu23

    Garda may be confusing careless driving (2 penalty points and an €80 fine) with dangerous overtaking of a cyclist (3 penalty points and €120 fine). Either way it's a punishment, heartening to hear - thanks for reporting and pursuing.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,346 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    buffalo wrote: »
    Garda may be confusing careless driving (2 penalty points and an €80 fine) with dangerous overtaking of a cyclist (3 penalty points and €120 fine). Either way it's a punishment, heartening to hear - thanks for reporting and pursuing.
    That would be the one that has had just four fines and points awarded in the past 12 months :rolleyes:

    https://twitter.com/dlrcycling/status/1330884943589896192?s=19
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,346 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Is there a case to be made for Sy and Seth being the same man? Their f**k sakes are strikingly similar :pac:

    I'm guessing same part of the country lads?
    I'm just plain old me. I haven't the energy to be anyone else! :)
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,580 ✭✭✭uberwolf


    tnegun wrote: »
    Result! The guard in question couldn't of been more on the ball or interested. I dropped the footage in on USB yesterday, driver produced their docs this morning and was shown the footage. They made some excuses about not being close to me or the approaching cars. Guard is proceeding with a fine for careless driving and said its €120 and 3 points (Online says thats €80 and 2 points) either way the driver will think next time they pass a cyclist.


    https://streamable.com/dmvu23

    That road looks so familiar, is it between maynooth and kilcock?
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,346 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Pinch Flat wrote: »
    We should have a "pointless overtake" thread. So many of them. For what - 2, 3 or 5 seconds?
    Can't remember if I posted this one before...
    https://streamable.com/60jq90
    Post edited by CramCycle on


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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,346 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Just seen this on Twitter - the system here is a joke...

    https://twitter.com/SamMcCormack97/status/1332294829255036929?s=19
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    I was told by a Gardai that I would indeed have to be knocked of and seriously injured for any action to be taken. He then went on to lament the terrible state of driving on Irish roads. He was 100% sincere.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    Was there something strange in the air today? I was out on the bike and in the car, and there were multiple drivers breaking red lights, late reds, one coming close to a sixty-something gent who waved his hands in frustration. The usual people parking on every path and cycle lane and driving with their phones in hand as we've come to expect of course. One Range Rover lady managed the hat trick of pulling up on the wrong side of the road at traffic lights at Baggot St bridge, and driving off against a red light with her phone in her hand.

    Sounds like a pretty routine day on Irish roads to me.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,099 ✭✭✭buffalo


    One for Trafficwatch on Monday morning:

    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,099 ✭✭✭buffalo


    buffalo wrote: »
    There was a hit and run near Kilcock end of September - a "silver SUV van" hit a female cyclist who "had appropriate lighting".

    Naturally the Garda then...
    Quote:
    encouraged other cyclists to make sure they have correct lighting and wear the right clothes.

    "Hi visible[sic] jackets on the bicycle and good cycling equipment is important," he said.

    "It is essential that people take the necessary precautions with the appropriate clothing and lighting."

    From this week's Liffey Champion. I exploded a bit while reading it.

    This Garda has now been promoted from Sergeant to Inspector! At least he's not in my area any more.

    I raised the comments with the Garda Press Office, no response. Awaiting a response from the Commissioner's office now, because the local JPC meeting didn't go ahead (Covid).
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,245 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    'but you weren't on the cycle path'
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,053 ✭✭✭cletus


    Jesus. I was actually sure you were going to go down there.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,099 ✭✭✭buffalo


    'but you weren't on the cycle path'

    I'm hoping that at least the Garda won't say that, whatever about the driver. I do use the cycle track further along, after it twice yields to allow access to a petrol station and business park. Business trumps cycling after all.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,099 ✭✭✭buffalo


    CramCycle wrote: »
    As bad as it was, did the guy in the red hoodie think you were shouting at him? He had a look of , why the f*** was he shouting at me.

    ha! I never even noticed that. Looks like he's watching after me for quite a while too...
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,346 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Post edited by CramCycle on


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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,346 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    buffalo wrote: »
    One for Trafficwatch on Monday morning:

    I've encountered that vehicle before. Driver needs to be brought down a few pegs.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,346 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    And that's a cycle lane on your left so use it!
    That cycle lane has two quite busy entrances and the cyclist is expected to yield for both of them. If planning on using the cycle path, it is far easier to join it after the petrol station.
    Plus, legally he has as much right to be on the road as the driver regardless of the cycle lane!
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,099 ✭✭✭buffalo


    And that's a cycle lane on your left so use it!

    No thanks.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭Breezer


    bazermc wrote: »
    He/she must be pretty bad to have established a prolific status

    You would be amazed the amount of times the same drivers are “known to Boardsies” on this thread.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,346 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    bazermc wrote: »
    He/she must be pretty bad to have established a prolific status
    I wouldn't say it's a prolific status but I travel the same roads so it's somewhat inevitable that I (and others) see familiar drivers.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,346 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    It's a cycle path and footpath (left side is for bikes)
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,346 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Oops I see now. It seems to swap sides where the car pulled in.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Weepsie wrote: »
    He's cycling on the footpath though?

    I'm not excusing the driver, it's awful driving, but he's cycling in a somewhat unpredictable manner. Why be in the footpath, and then go for the cycle lane, that the footpath a few metres up turns into anyway?


    *I also accept that the whole path design is incredibly bad.

    This is the spot:
    https://goo.gl/maps/XaiGiSsMPzK8z9VF9

    The cycle lane is obstructed by trees and lamp poles and the surface looks broken up. The car is driving in a bus lane and veers into the cycle lane, who exactly is unpredictable? Unfortunately this type of driving is entirely predictable.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    breezy1985 wrote: »
    But why was the cyclist veering right just as he was coming to a parked car?
    The car shouldnt park there but I think the bike is trying to cause a confrontation too

    Ask him.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭Breezer


    They were all out today. I can only assume it was for Christmas shopping.

    Here this morning, I'm taking the second left up ahead, at the lights. I take primary in the bus lane to prevent close passes from queue skippers and left hooks. Firstly one driver, having driven up in the leftmost general traffic lane, cuts in left just ahead of me without looking. As I'm braking, another driver that drove up the bus lane behind me beeps because I'm in his way. I go left around the corner, there's two slow cyclists in the cycle lane, so I stay in primary position for the 5 seconds it takes me to overtake. Your man goes ballistic on the horn. Apparently he's not really in a hurry though, because as I move over into the now clear cycle track, he rolls up beside me with the window down, in a Golf GTI with a particularly stupid spoiler on it. I ignore and thankfully he fecks off. I then proceed to catch him at the next three red lights, two of which are up hills.

    Then this evening in the cycle lane about here, a dog jumps off the path into the cycle lane. I swerve slightly to avoid him. A taxi has been hanging behind me in the bus lane and seemed to be about to choose that moment to close pass, but thankfully he hangs back till I'm past the dog. Then he passes within a foot, with two empty lanes to his right.

    And finally heading south past Phibsborough shopping centre here, a white van man decides he's going into the left lane for the lights up ahead. He pulls in and sticks his indicator on at the same time, on top of the cyclist ahead of me. I thought he was going to left hook him into the apartments and I let out a roar. He missed him by inches. No harm done thankfully and the other cyclist seemed fairly unperturbed by the whole thing.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,035 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Breezer wrote: »
    And finally heading south past Phibsborough shopping centre here, a white van man decides he's going into the left lane for the lights up ahead. He pulls in and sticks his indicator on at the same time, on top of the cyclist ahead of me. I thought he was going to left hook him into the apartments and I let out a roar. He missed him by inches. No harm done thankfully and the other cyclist seemed fairly unperturbed by the whole thing.

    A white van nearly doored me last time I cycled through there. Overtook me, pulled in very sharply then immediately opened the door right in front of me.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭Breezer


    Stark wrote: »
    A white van nearly doored me last time I cycled through there. Overtook me, pulled in very sharply then immediately opened the door right in front of me.

    It’s a mental spot. Thankfully at the times I go through it, most of the traffic is usually stationary, but you need eyes in the back of your head.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 308 ✭✭DoraDelite


    Breezer wrote: »
    They were all out today. I can only assume it was for Christmas shopping.

    Here this morning, I'm taking the second left up ahead, at the lights. I take primary in the bus lane to prevent close passes from queue skippers and left hooks. Firstly one driver, having driven up in the leftmost general traffic lane, cuts in left just ahead of me without looking. As I'm braking, another driver that drove up the bus lane behind me beeps because I'm in his way. I go left around the corner, there's two slow cyclists in the cycle lane, so I stay in primary position for the 5 seconds it takes me to overtake. Your man goes ballistic on the horn. Apparently he's not really in a hurry though, because as I move over into the now clear cycle track, he rolls up beside me with the window down, in a Golf GTI with a particularly stupid spoiler on it. I ignore and thankfully he fecks off. I then proceed to catch him at the next three red lights, two of which are up hills.

    Pretty much thought I was dead at that exact spot about 3 months ago. Took the bus lane to take the same route round to the right, I try to centre myself on it so as not to get stuck when going around to the right. A Bus Eireann bus passed me so close that I could have licked the side of the bus and ran the red light just after, I was actually thinking someone must have taken it for a joyride as there's no way a professional driver could drive like that.

    I got off my bike as I was shaking so much and almost burst into tears. That experience is exactly why I can see how people are bullied off the roads and don't want to cycle around Dublin, you question why you'd put yourself through something like that. I keep at it as I don't want the the aggressive selfish drivers to win. I want to see the infrastructure changes that will stop that type of driving being a danger to myself and others, who just want to get from A to B in a safe manner.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭Breezer


    DoraDelite wrote: »
    Pretty much thought I was dead at that exact spot about 3 months ago. Took the bus lane to take the same route round to the right, I try to centre myself on it so as not to get stuck when going around to the right. A Bus Eireann bus passed me so close that I could have licked the side of the bus and ran the red light just after, I was actually thinking someone must have taken it for a joyride as there's no way a professional driver could drive like that.

    I got off my bike as I was shaking so much and almost burst into tears. That experience is exactly why I can see how people are bullied off the roads and don't want to cycle around Dublin, you question why you'd put yourself through something like that. I keep at it as I don't want the the aggressive selfish drivers to win. I want to see the infrastructure changes that will stop that type of driving being a danger to myself and others, who just want to get from A to B in a safe manner.

    Sorry to hear that. It's a clusterf**k of a junction that thankfully is planned to be improved significantly for cyclists under Busconnects. If it's any consolation, I go through there every day in both directions, and I've never had a particularly close call on it. Drivers blocking lanes all over the place, yes. Lots of weaving through stationary traffic as a result, yes. Drivers beeping horns at you for confidently taking road position, yes. But as regards close calls, I find the only thing you usually need to watch out for is drivers cutting in to the bus lane to go left at the last second. Which is a problem, but at least you only need to watch one place and be ready to brake if needed.

    I presume that's what the bus driver in question did? Sounds pretty intimidating with a bus alright.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,245 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    it's an awful bollocks of a junction even in the car. approaching from phibsboro, you pass the big off licence on your right, and if the bus lane is in operation, you stay in the rightmost lane. but other private car drivers take the bus lane anyway to get the hop on you and won't let you merge then to take the left down botanic road.

    anyway, i filled out a complaint on centra's website today to complain about a truck driver. i'd say the chances of me getting a satisfactory result are nil.
    he overtook me on a blind bend over a solid white line, into oncoming traffic on a narrow road. between the side of the runway at the airport and sillogue golf course.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 308 ✭✭DoraDelite


    Not in this instance, he was going in the same direction as me. Instead of either waiting behind me in the same lane or switching lanes, he decided to close pass me with half the bus in my lane and half in the other. I was centre of my lane so it wasn't like I was in at the kerb and he thought he had room to squeeze by. It was not a error of judgement in this case and he topped it off by running the red light.

    It was criminal driving and while 99 times out of 100 you can get through that junction okay, it only takes that one. I did complain to Bus Eireann but I'm sure it got filed away in the "we don't care if our drivers kill a cyclist or pedestrian".
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,245 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Weepsie wrote: »
    That seems completely absurd and like it would be rather more expensive than getting actual third party liability insurance but on the other hand it cuts out spineless insurance companies
    for a big enough organisation where insurance claims can almost be predicted year on year, it's sensible. if an insurance company know there are going to be claims totalling a million a year, they'll probably charge a hefty premium to handle them.

    the rest of us pay insurance because of the unpredictable nature of risk. but it gets less unpredictable the larger an organisation gets.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,099 ✭✭✭buffalo


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Ha, it was the 133 that has been the cause of every issue I've ever had with BE.

    Interesting. 133 for the most deliberately malicious piece of driving I've ever encountered on the roads as well. Sprayed me with the wiper jets, then slowly squeezed me into the kerb over the course of several hundred metres, despite having two empty lanes to his right. I was so close to going under the back wheels.

    I should've gone to the Guards straight away, but didn't have a reg. BE didn't do anything, afaics.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,099 ✭✭✭buffalo


    tnegun wrote: »
    Just got straight to Leixlip or Celbridge garda station (Thats Applegreen in Celbridge right?) if its open. All traffic watch will do it is log it and then you'll have to try make an appointment with the Guard its assigned to some time in the next 2-6 weeks. If you go in and make a statement print off a couple of pics and have the footage on USB you've done all the leg work and have a better chance of a prosecution and guard taking an interest IMO

    Managed to get down to the station tonight - having a 5 month old with the temperament of a 3 month old leaves me little free time and very little energy to do much in that time! Felt good to avoid TrafficWatch though.

    After watching it and taking a statement, the Garda asked me to email a compact clip of the manoeuvre so as not to fill the inbox presumably. I specifically asked for a 'dangerous overtake of a cyclist' FCPN. Will see what happens next.
    Post edited by CramCycle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,012 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    North King Street (Dublin) this morning - instinctively slapped the side of a van which made contact with me as it suddenly veered across the on-street cycle track presumably to park. Luckily I wasn't going fast at the time due to traffic and shitty weather conditions. The driver seemed to have gotten a bigger shock than I did and, in fairness, he was very apologetic making me immediately regret what I did..
    Post edited by CramCycle on


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