Viability of small dairy farm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

If you are, then I'd encourage you to at least consider the idea of doing more with your life than daysul and spanners. It might seem a somewhat interesting prospect now (well you definitely aren't doing it for the money because there simply isn't any in that field), but in 10 or 15 years time it'll literally be the exact same craic - broken down in the rain and it getting dark, and you're in under it, sodden and covered in dirt with black oil running up inside the sleeve of your overalls, getting abused by the owner for why can't you do it quicker and cheaper, if you get paid at all that is. Same craic, except you'll have a bad back and possible a wife and children and to feed and clothe and a mortgage to pay, with only marginally more money than you'll make as an apprentice.
I might as well just be blunt, if a person values themselves, they will aim higher than mechanicing because it is frankly a shíte job that'll kill you mentally and financially, and quite possibly, physically (if not through an accident, the exposure to years of a cocktail of bad chemicals, heavy metals, oils and fumes). Want more than that for yourself lad.

You have to remember that over the next couple of years, probably the majority of your school mates will be leaving and going to university or whatever, now of course some will do useless mickey mouse courses or drop out, but at least they are getting out there and trying to move beyond the parish and see what's out there in terms of careers and learning.

My advice is to just, as hard as it may be, knuckle down at the books and get a good leaving. I know it is hard to do, but trust me, a lifetime busting your back and your knuckles for a tyrant of a dealer, or independently for a tight bollox who is slow to pay for jobs will be a million times harder in the long run.
Consider something in a related field - perhaps study engineering, agri science, something that you are interested in and enthused by that you can get a professional job and career out of.

Messing around with tractors and having a few calves on the side can always easily fit in alongside a proper job in a few years time when you get established in a career. And importantly, you will have the money to fund it as a hobby for enjoyment and lifestyle reasons rather than trying to eek out a meagre living from it, especially when you grow to detest, what will eventually be, every physically painful moment of it.

Dealerships, despite the plumas and manufacturer's glossy propaganda, as as much a bunch of gangsters as anyone. I was cracked for the tractors and machinery at the time. I was driven for it, I did month trials in several dealerships and was highly rated, told i was the best trial they had in one place, offered all three apprenticships. I ended up in a NH dealer in Co. Tipperary as an apprentice. However, between one half the dealership owners being a tight cantankerous bollox, who wouldn't spend a bob on so much as a straight axle stand or a reasonably hygienic canteen for eating lunch, and 90% of my friends having left home to broaden their horizons, I saw sense after 6 months or so. I packed it in moved on in another field. Most of the mechanics there were stressed and miserable. The ones who seemed content were binge drinkers who are stuck in time, still doing the exact same today 16 years later.
Coming near enough to being crushed between a tractor and a wall when the dealers 40 odd year old home-made axle stand gave way under a tractor was a decider for me. I wasn't risking my health or life for this sort of crap life.

So I was in your position. But it took me wasting a year of my life to see it for what it was and would be and see sense.

jaymla627 wrote: »

Ford4life wrote: »

Opened the biscuit tin 80 acres is nearly enough to keep 80 cows anyway depending on quality of the land, might have only started with 40 acres or something, over 25 years repayment for landwould be 40,000 if paying 1m for the 80 acres, thats quite achievable with 80 cows, parlour would be 100,000 or more depending on amount of clusters and what spec they go for, maybe 120,000 on a cubicle shed for them, plus assuming his son is qualified for tams grant thats 72,000 back on the cubicle shed bundle all the costs together into a 25 year loan we'll say 1148000 to repay then interest of 3% each year would be 35,000, round it up to 1.2m to repay over 25 years would be 48000 in repayments with interest included each year thats quite achievable considering with 24 cows i accounted for 10000 in repayments for first 4 years with ~20k profit, then with 3.3 times the cows you could have roughly 50-60k income after repayments are taken away
Its a big advantage to not have to buy land when starting out
Disclaimer: These figures are very rough estimates[/quote

Is the above example in a company, if not any repayments on land after interest is taken off is taken of your income after tax, your reminding of the two young lads on ear to the ground waffling on about the 1000 euro a cow they would be making as new entrants to milk, you’ll be in for some kick in the hole if you do get into cows of the actual financials of it

This was just a very rough calculation, back of a fag box kind of thing and not for myself, one other poster mentioned a lad buying 80acres, new milking parlour and 80 cows just a very quick guestimation at how much it would cost him each year, i realise i did the interest completely wrong but hey ho it was rough. I did a quick income and costing calculation on page 1 or 2 of this thread i think it was (wasnt as rough as this one)

tanko wrote: »

This is brilliant.
Have you considered a job with Teagasc??

TheBoyConor wrote: »

OP, I have made my view on the mechanicing "career" known, so I will say no more about that. However, I still think diving into the dairy business at your first start at life is really cutting yourself short. You are only 17. From the way you talk here, you do seem driven and smart. I think you have much more potential than to be messing around with machinery or just spend your life dairy farming. Not that there is anything wrong with farming per se, but to just go straight into it without exploring more worthwhile and stable careers, you would be really hamstringing yourself. Get a proper qualification in some professional field related to agriculture or engineering if they are the fields that interest you.

If you want a more realistic window into the future, I'd recommend watching the film Pilgrim Hill. It depicts a what can be a rather grim and isolating reality it can be for someone like the character joe to reach middle early age having never broadened their horizons at the outset, and spend their life thus far in the thrall of the land and cows, haunted by the crushing regret at how things could have been different if life had taken a different path.

I think this line from the film about sums it up.....

........."if I were to die and meet the person i could have been, instead of the person I am now."....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkA3_yO1kJ4

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I might just add that you are leaving your estimates for finance and time badly skewed by factoring in that your father might be able to do milkings, or if you have kids they might be able to help out in future.

You should base your estimates not counting those things in. Because they might well not be in the picture. Your father (hopefully not) could get a serious illness, or be incapacitated. Kids, if you have them, and that is a big if, might not be interested or able. What if your child has special needs or a disability?

The possibility of extra help is a sort of extra bonus. You should never rely on such vagaries as part of a plan.

I think you really need to dial back your overly optimistic outlook on this. You are coming at this with a far too gung-ho attitude.

893bet wrote: »

Forget about cows. Forget about cubicles. Forget about tractors.

Talk about succession planning with your father. When will he be happy to give it up. He draws money from the farm. Are you going to still pay him or replace this income etc.

TheBoyConor wrote: »

The reason they are always stuck for mechanics is probably because no-one will do it because they probably pay shíte and probably treat the staff like dirt. If you are only getting into it so plan to be out of it at 25 then what is the point? And if you do happen to be running your own farm, despite having the knowledge, you are not going to have the time to have your head in under the arse end of a tractor bolloxin' and batin' the knuckles off yourself, when cows need milking and feeding and paper work need doing and fields need topping the other 101 jobs that you need to do. So you will probably have to call a local mechanic to do it, and be shocked at how much it will cost, and want him to do it cheaper because your farm margins are so feckin tight and your bank ac is already overdrawn. So you see, that whole thing is really a circle of just not enough in it to be worth it.

My opinion on the council workshops is that a) many councils don't have workshops anymore, and those that do are probably looking to wind them up in future and get work done by a framework of contractors. That is a fact. All council's are headed in that direction. One thing is for sure, they won't be hiring big groups of mechanics anyway.
So just forget the council. It should be a complete non-runner. I told you about the council I work for. And the council in my home county, well they had a big machinery yard and tar depot in my hometown. That is all gone now, all liquidated and demolished and they are building social housing on the site. That should tell you the direction the local authorities are going.

Leaving cert is only 6 months away. Grin and bear it. Hit the books and try get as many points as you can. 450 should usually be enough to get you onto a proper, well regarded engineering or agriculture course in a university. 450 is fairly respectable score for a leaving cert. Go to a proper career guidance counsellor with good reviews. If you have to pay a few hundred for a few consultations, so be it. It is a good investment in yourself.

Forget messing with tractors and cows and stuff for 6 months and study hard, hard as you can. They will still all be there in the future.

As I said, when I was 17 and 18 all I was interested in was tractors and machinery and daysul and farming. I think it is a phase most fellas from farms go through. And of course I liked it, because it was only weekends and the odd evening i was at it. Luckily I snapped out of it once I got a taste of what it would be like for to do as a full time job. I grew to almost view it with distain. After that I worked in a job for the remainder of a year, I went to study engineering, and it is a career I enjoy. I work the hours I want within reason, for reasonable enough money, and I don't have to worry about getting crushed to death, or getting my face kicked in by a cow, or getting slowly poisoned to death by oils, heavy metals and chemicals. And I still tinker around with the tractor and engine restoration projects on the side at the weekends. So I still have that in an amount that i enjoy and don't have to depend on it to put bread on the table.

I dunno man. When I was your age I didn't listen either. Maybe you just have to take it in, go and do your year of trying it out full time, and then snap out of it. At least if you genuinely make an effort and work hard this year, you will have a decent leaving cert to fall back on and get a university education that will open so many doors and opportunities for you. We all have to find our way.

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Makes no difference. You will spend your life paying it back anyway, even IF, IF, you have kids. Kids are extraordinarily expensive to raise.

Indeed it is. That film Pilgrim Hill needs to be shown to people in school because it is literally the story of a massive swath of rural Ireland, much of which in the isolated parts is racked with isolation, depression, suicides. You know these fellas yourself sure. I have had to cut 2 people down in my locality. One a friend, who luckily survived and is doing OK.



The Pallaskenry Level 6 & 7 courses aren't really worth much in themselves to be honest. You won't have much prospects to be hired on the back of either of them. The website alludes to this as it suggests progression onto traditional engineering degree. So they are a useful back door if you don't qualify for CAO entry. And you will probably be well ahead then as you'll have the experience and basics covered already.
Most universities do a common entry 1st year engineering. It gives a flavour of many disciplines of engineering and you then speciallise in the 2nd year onwards.

Donald Trump wrote: »

Just to let you know. The investment ceiling for current TAMS is 80k.

If you qualify as a young trained farmer (which you won't yet) then you could get 60%. So that puts a ceiling of 48k on your grant money for your cubicles. If you don't qualify yourself as a young trained farmer, that maximum limit drops to 32k.



The grant scheme may or may not be available when/if you think you will be in a position to build.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Yes if I remember right starting rate was 16.50/hour, he then had an attendance bonus, an on time bonus and if you achieved all this you got on to an extra shift list. You might get one a fortnight.

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Well it depends. You can work in a number of difference types of places as a civil engineer. Since it is such a broad field, you could be doing a multitide of things.

1. Consultant engineers. You'd be mostly working on things like design of schemes of work, analysing problems and coming up with solutions anything from small things you could hold in your hand like designing a particular steel or concrete component part, or bigger sizing the types of beam to go into a building's floor or roof, to even bigger things like modelling how a whole building reacts to wind loads, to much bigger scale stuff like analysing and modelling the rainfall and flow of water in the whole river Shannon basin, to looking at the numbers of bikes, pedestrians and vehicles moving through a whole city road network in order to optimise it. A lot of desk work and report writing sometimes.
You could also be assigned to supervise work being carried out by a contractor on a construction site. That is a resident engineer job, and can be highly paid.
There are literally hundreds of companies but the big names in the field would be the likes of Arup, Jacobs, RPS, Atkins, Mott McDonald,

2. Contractor. The action end of it. Machinery, muck shifting, digging, big concrete pours, laying pipelines, building buildings, etc etc. You could be setting out work, organising work crews and machinery, looking after health and safety would be a big enough part of an engineers job. Depending on your position, you could be paid say 30k as a site engineer to perhaps 100-120k as a contract manager in charge of the whole job or several jobs.
Companys like Sisk, BAM, Hegarty, Roadbridge would be the big name companies in this side.

3. Utilities and public authorities. Public or private organisations like Councils, Irish Water, ESB, Bord Gais, broadband and telecoms companies, the Office of Public Works, some Government Departments. Managing day to day engineering operations of the businesses they run, and managing consultants and contractors who are brought in to do non-routine work or build new infrastructure for them.

4. Other companies like property developers, or big multinationals with factories would often hire civil engineers to look after and manage building maintenance and any changes or new build stuff. Even the HSE would employ a certain number of civil engineers to manage their maintenance and new build jobs.

As an electrical engineer, you could easily end up working for any of the above also, certainly in the bigger employers.

I think the resident engineer type job would suit you maybe. Or working site based with a contractor.

Another type of job in civil engineering would be to become an engineering technician. It is more hands on stuff, perhaps doing different types of surveys in the field, working with different types of technical equipment, perhaps lab work testing materials and components, doing engineering drawings on a computer and so on. It used to be a level 7 degree for this but it is moving more towards a level 8 degree for to work as a technician nowadays.



Possibly. But the thing is, in 15 or 20 years time, you would still be earning the same wage. 15-20 years after graduating from 4/5 years in a good engineering school doing a civil generalist and you would be looking at a good 80k per year if you were good and progressed.

But remember, doing a qualification is not the same as being an engineer. You do an accredited qualification, typically to level 9 nowadays, then you work and gain experience and train on-the-job for 4-5 years, then you become professionally qualified as an chartered engineer. This is an subtle but important point. There are any number of people floating around being loosely called engineers because they studied engineering at some level at some time, but they aren't professionally qualified as such.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Big difference is as you say long hours. No structure to the day, some days flat out some days they prefer if you were not around. Time off when it is no use to.you.inntge middle of winter.

MNC's are brilliant employers, health insurance paid for and a pensions contribution. As well a possibility of moving on with a career. Working for a farmer or contractor max they will pay is 15/ hour most farmers would be at 11-12 max. Contractors at present are at 12-14 if they can get away with it. There are MNC's paying more and less than that.
As you get older it easier to do a bit after an 8 hour day from an inside environment rather than from a physical job. As well not all handy jobs are office bound.

Local Authorities now have building Technicians employed. They are checking the rental houses that are taken for HAP. I imagine that there pay scale is heading for 40k or above it. They travel out to check houses. A pudding of a job if there ever was one.

The other thing you do not understand is that a lot of office jobs are capable of being done WFH. In ten years time a huge percentage of office jobs will be like that. You could even make milk cows with them