Bowman Palace plan

fat bloke · 14-05-2021 8:55am

No word back from Bowman HQ yet anyway. In the mean time my brain is in a whirl as to what I should do at all. Looking up aluminium frames generally there's a strongly held view out there that mechanical fatigue and, ultimately, failure is inevitable in an aluminium frame. That is not something I thought or knew. Given that Bowman's frame warranty is not lifetime, it's more like 4 or 5 years - that puts a stark stopwatch time-line on your bike doesn't it?!
As much as I liked the frame and was a fan of the concept and the company I must say I'm leaning away from it now and looking at alternatives. - Back to good ol' carbon maybe. If I get a refund from Bowman I'll have only a very meagre sum for carbon frame shopping, but I will also have a complete "build-a-bike" kit lying around, ready for the right frame when it crops up. There are no frame bargains anywhere in the current market - new or used, but I'm also not in any hurry. - I dusted off my super-used-bargain canyon aeroad last night for a jaunt up the featherbeds, Sally Gap and back the Military road and was reminded of what a fabulous bike that is, so I'm well catered for, which is great.

It will be a sad and pathetic end to my grand Bowman experiment but.... the writing is on the wall really isn't it

Plastik · 14-05-2021 9:40am

The internet is a weird and wonderful place. Just because metal fatigue can happen certainly doesn't mean that metal fatigue will happen, just as carbon de-lamination could happen. I've a 2011 CAAD10 here with untold mileage, numerous dents, and it's still rocking along just fine. I've put about 37,000km on it and I'm at least the 3rd owner. But there's no doubt about it, this is a ballache of a situation to have to be dealing with, and twice. Like you've said, there isn't exactly a proliferation of stories online about their frames failing and I know a good few lads now riding them. Another option is take and flip the replacement frame on. Probably worth more than the monetary refund. And you've a few months to find something else and not exactly stuck for something with the R5 and Aeroad!

fat bloke · 14-05-2021 9:48am

I'm not exactly paving the way for a frame sale here though am I?

*goes back and deletes all negative posts*

Just looking at the Trek Emonda ALR there and they offer a lifetime frame warranty. -For Bowman Inc. Y'know, their whole thing is their frames. They're flying the flag for aluminium, the Palace is their long time baby. It's not like they update it every year, the first gen Palace R is around for donkeys and this is the brand new one on which they're hanging their hats and reputation. Jesus like if it was my company and I got a catastrophic failure back like mine there... I'd have the worry-beads out!

magicbastarder · 14-05-2021 9:53am

fat bloke wrote: »

No word back from Bowman HQ yet anyway.

not even an acknowledgement of your initial mail/contact?

fat bloke · 14-05-2021 10:05am

magicbastarder wrote: »

not even an acknowledgement of your initial mail/contact?

Brexit border checks on emails maybe?:pac:

ARX · 14-05-2021 1:32pm

Plastik wrote: »

The internet is a weird and wonderful place. Just because metal fatigue can happen certainly doesn't mean that metal fatigue will happen, just as carbon de-lamination could happen. I've a 2011 CAAD10 here with untold mileage, numerous dents, and it's still rocking along just fine. I've put about 37,000km on it and I'm at least the 3rd owner.

Giant have a lifetime frame warranty, with 10 years on forks. Trek have a lifetime frame & rigid fork warranty. Planet X offer only 2 years, Ribble 3 years and Bowman 5 years. It doesn't sound like the smaller manufacturers have much confidence in their products.

JimmiesRustled · 14-05-2021 2:04pm

ARX wrote: »

Giant have a lifetime frame warranty, with 10 years on forks. Trek have a lifetime frame & rigid fork warranty. Planet X offer only 2 years, Ribble 3 years and Bowman 5 years. It doesn't sound like the smaller manufacturers have much confidence in their products.

I think it has more to do with overall turnover and profit. Comparing Giant (the group that pioneered the compact bike design) with Ribble (a small bike shop in the Ribble valley that have developed over the years into an online retailer) is a bit unfair.

A quick search showed Giants profits for 2020 at €107 million with Ribble at €2.2 million. As well as that, giant manufacture frames for other brands which isn't taken into account within that profit.

BMC offer 3 years.
Canyon offer 2 years.
Colnago offer 2-3 years.
Pinarello offer 5 years.
Merida offer 5 years but it's void if the rider is over 120kg.

I think it's unfair to call out Ribble and the others on this when many much larger brands do the same.

magicbastarder · 14-05-2021 2:26pm

now i'm curious as to how merida police that condition.

CantGetNoSleep · 14-05-2021 2:31pm

fat bloke wrote: »

I'm not exactly paving the way for a frame sale here though am I?

*goes back and deletes all negative posts*

Just looking at the Trek Emonda ALR there and they offer a lifetime frame warranty. -For Bowman Inc. Y'know, their whole thing is their frames. They're flying the flag for aluminium, the Palace is their long time baby. It's not like they update it every year, the first gen Palace R is around for donkeys and this is the brand new one on which they're hanging their hats and reputation. Jesus like if it was my company and I got a catastrophic failure back like mine there... I'd have the worry-beads out!

Do you have invoices for getting it built up twice? Given you would need to build it up a third time, and both failures were their fault, and your wait in between frames, I'd ask them for a full bike.

Mefistofelino · 14-05-2021 3:26pm

JimmiesRustled wrote: »

I think it has more to do with overall turnover and profit. Comparing Giant (the group that pioneered the compact bike design) with Ribble (a small bike shop in the Ribble valley that have developed over the years into an online retailer) is a bit unfair.

A quick search showed Giants profits for 2020 at €107 million with Ribble at €2.2 million. As well as that, giant manufacture frames for other brands which isn't taken into account within that profit.

BMC offer 3 years.
Canyon offer 2 years.
Colnago offer 2-3 years.
Pinarello offer 5 years.
Merida offer 5 years but it's void if the rider is over 120kg.

I think it's unfair to call out Ribble and the others on this when many much larger brands do the same.

Yup - "warranty" is mostly a case of how much cash you want to set aside to deal with future failures and not necessarily related to failure rates. Cars with identical components can have different warranty periods - several Kia and Hyundai models are identical under the skin and have different warranties.

Because a material can fatigue doesn't mean that something made of that material is guaranteed to fail over its lifetime. Its simply a case of factoring that into the design. I had a Ribble 7005 frame which had years of abuse and had zero failures. However, it was overbuilt, heavy and dead to ride. "Sprightly" (for want of a better word) alloy frames may not be overbuilt to the same extent.

However, having said all that, the fact that the failure happened in a weld area may indicate poor welding, weld embrittlement or overly aggressive weld bead removal. The difference between Bowman and, say, Giant or Cannondale may be down to the affordability of better quality procedures.

Hope you get sorted - it was a great looking bike.

fat bloke · 18-05-2021 9:59am

Preparing the Bow(legged)man Palace 3C for shipping back to the UK to confirm (a formality I imagine) the warranty claim. I reckon I'll be looking for a refund and just closing the chapter on this failed and disappointing soap-opera of an experiment. Having been a wannabe Bowman-owner for years I had such high hopes and expectations. Perhaps I should've done like everyone else - put away my "notions" and just bought a BTW Giant Defy 3 for myself. :rolleyes:

If anyone has any nice frames in the pipeline, hit me up - I have some impressive finishing kit jewellery that needs hanging.

wpd · 31-05-2021 12:45pm

fat bloke wrote: »

Preparing the Bow(legged)man Palace 3C for shipping back to the UK to confirm (a formality I imagine) the warranty claim. I reckon I'll be looking for a refund and just closing the chapter on this failed and disappointing soap-opera of an experiment. Having been a wannabe Bowman-owner for years I had such high hopes and expectations. Perhaps I should've done like everyone else - put away my "notions" and just bought a BTW Giant Defy 3 for myself. :rolleyes:

If anyone has any nice frames in the pipeline, hit me up - I have some impressive finishing kit jewellery that needs hanging.

Hi just wondering if any update on communication with Bowman?

fat bloke · 31-05-2021 12:50pm

wpd wrote: »

Hi just wondering if any update on communication with Bowman?

Nothing to report yet anyway. They confirmed receipt of the frame on Tuesday last week and said they'd be in touch.

fat bloke · 02-06-2021 4:17pm

OK. May as well close it up. A thread and a bike I think that can be summarised as having over-promised and under-delivered. Bowman, as expected, offered me a new frame or a refund and I went for the refund, game over, ball burst.

I'm working on an exciting replacement though! Fingers crossed

wpd · 02-06-2021 4:57pm

your exciting replacement justifies a new thread i think!!

bsb1971 · 02-06-2021 8:58pm

wpd wrote: »

your exciting replacement justifies a new thread i think!!

I second that!!!!!

magicbastarder · 02-06-2021 9:21pm

you should write to bowman and ask for the frame back as a measure of courtesy, so it can go in the Boards Cycling Forum Museum, which will someday inevitably be built.

Trekker09 · 02-06-2021 10:08pm

I'm really surprised at their response (or lack of). This is the 2nd frame that's a dud and the PR repercussions and fallout could be quite damaging, especially for a small company like Bowman. They should be reaching out to see what they can do to rectify the situation and engaging with you to make this a win win.
I was looking at their disc frames for a future build but after this debacle I would touch them with the proverbial barge pole!

Good luck with the new project, and I'm looking forward to Season 2!

CantGetNoSleep · 02-06-2021 10:12pm

I was hoping for one more twist - like they'd offered you a full bike for your troubles. So many ups and downs in this thread

fat bloke · 02-06-2021 11:03pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

you should write to bowman and ask for the frame back as a measure of courtesy, so it can go in the Boards Cycling Forum Museum, which will someday inevitably be built.

Ha ha, like the Top Gear Hilux

Trekker09 wrote: »

I'm really surprised at their response (or lack of). This is the 2nd frame that's a dud and the PR repercussions and fallout could be quite damaging, especially for a small company like Bowman. They should be reaching out to see what they can do to rectify the situation and engaging with you to make this a win win.
I was looking at their disc frames for a future build but after this debacle I would touch them with the proverbial barge pole!

Good luck with the new project, and I'm looking forward to Season 2!

I was actually talking to a bespoke frame manufacturer about it, who's a neighbour and he reckoned you'd have to wait really for the 2nd or even 3rd or 4th batch before taking another frame to be sure to be sure. Failures like mine would be fed back into the system and hopefully weeded out and corrected. I certainly didn't want to wait another feckin 12 months.

I haven't heard or read any bad experiences of their disc braked Weald which is around a while now so I suppose there's no reason to be wary. 'Tis a pity to be sure, how things worked out but, hey, onwards and upwards

fat bloke · 04-06-2021 9:41am

Onwards and upwards indeed. I didn't ride my bike at all in world bike day yesterday but I did buy the makings of a bike!

Thanks to Plastik for pointing me in the direction of this. When I first saw the ad I read "CF" but no "SLX" after it and I thought it was Canyon's lower grade carbon frame, still fine medium level frameset but nothing special, and a bit pricey at the asking. It was only after that I copped the significance of the "Evo". This is one rung above the ultimate SLX, its their ultimate Ultimate. It was available in from Canyon as a 12 grand sub 5kg build option!! :eek:. Their "cheaper", "heavier" build option was still sub 6kg and similar monies. The frameset alone was also an option for a smidgen under 3 grand. In a small the frame is 660g. It's actually 2g (:rolleyes:) lighter than the limited edition superlight and ten grand RCA version of my old Cervelo R5.

Anyway. It's in fabulous condition, has hardly been ridden, and the seller threw in a bargain Canyon H36 one-piece aerobar cockpit, including the integrated aero Garmin mount. By pure coincidence the cockpit is exactly my size with a 100ml stem and 42 wide.

With the Bowman sram red and SLR's lashed straight on it should be close to 6kg or under straight outta the box!

The best-laid winter bike plans eh? :rolleyes:

Trekker09 · 04-06-2021 9:51am

fat bloke wrote: »

Onwards and upwards indeed. I didn't ride my bike at all in world bike day yesterday but I did buy the makings of a bike!

Thanks to Plastik for pointing me in the direction of this. When I first saw the ad I read "CF" but no "SLX" after it and I thought it was Canyon's lower grade carbon frame, still fine medium level frameset but nothing special, and a bit pricey at the asking. It was only after that I copped the significance of the "Evo". This is one rung above the ultimate SLX, its their ultimate Ultimate. It was available in from Canyon as a 12 grand sub 5kg build option!! :eek:. Their "cheaper", "heavier" build option was still sub 6kg and similar monies. The frameset alone was also an option for a smidgen under 3 grand. In a small the frame is 660g. It's actually 2g (:rolleyes:) lighter than the limited edition superlight and ten grand RCA version of my old Cervelo R5.

Anyway. It's in fabulous condition, has hardly been ridden, and the seller threw in a bargain Canyon H36 one-piece aerobar cockpit, including the integrated aero Garmin mount. By pure coincidence the cockpit is exactly my size with a 100ml stem and 42 wide.

With the Bowman sram red and SLR's lashed straight on it should be close to 6kg or under straight outta the box!

The best-laid winter bike plans eh? :rolleyes:

Now that is lush. I've had 2 Ultimates and they were top notch. One was slightly too big and the other made way for my BMC. Looking forward to seeing this built up!

fat bloke · 04-06-2021 12:39pm

Trekker09 wrote: »

Now that is lush. I've had 2 Ultimates and they were top notch. One was slightly too big and the other made way for my BMC. Looking forward to seeing this built up!

Thought you'd appreciate it alright Trekker, you've a solid CV of exotic and unusual frames iirc - Basso diamante, Condor and the like.

What sizes were the Ultimates? I won't know for sure until I build it up but sitting on yer man's build and going by geometry the M seems to be a bang-on no-messin' hand-in-glove 56.

Trekker09 · 04-06-2021 1:57pm

fat bloke wrote: »

Thought you'd appreciate it alright Trekker, you've a solid CV of exotic and unusual frames iirc - Basso diamante, Condor and the like.

What sizes were the Ultimates? I won't know for sure until I build it up but sitting on yer man's build and going by geometry the M seems to be a bang-on no-messin' hand-in-glove 56.

The 1st was a large, which turned out to be a 58 which was a tad too large but the 2nd was a medium which was bang on. I was going to pull the trigger on the Ultimate SLX Special Edition with Campagnolo Super Record and Boras but by the time I had the money they'd sold out :mad: They had it on offer for under €4k too!

Bowman Palace plan

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