Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Tell me how · 15-11-2018 5:28pm

Infini wrote: »

Honestly the conservatives would be better off jessisoning the leave wing if they wish to save their hides. Theyre essentially undercover UKIPpers.

And give a new party 50-60 seats in Westminister as a starting point?
Could be a very dangerous move for their party? It would wipe out UKIP entirely if it happened however.

seenitall · 15-11-2018 5:30pm

Hurrache wrote: »

The eastern side of the map needs an update, Croatia?

Ugh - figured out way too quickly!

judeboy101 · 15-11-2018 5:36pm

May to pull a John major @5pm, "bring it on".

Penn · 15-11-2018 5:38pm

Astonishing that Rees-Mogg doesn't have the balls to go for the leadership himself after placing himself as one of May's harshest critics. Says everything about both the man and the situation the PM (or would-be PMs) would be in.

Professor Moriarty · 15-11-2018 5:38pm

lawred2 wrote: »

yeah but it was a bunch of MPs doing a lot of the lying

Indeed. A very small bunch though.

Professor Moriarty · 15-11-2018 5:39pm

Penn wrote: »

Astonishing that Rees-Mogg doesn't have the balls to go for the leadership himself after placing himself as one of May's harshest critics. Says everything about both the man and the situation the PM (or would-be PMs) would be in.

Not that he'd care for or understand the comparison, but he's the epitome of the hurler on the ditch.

TheValeyard · 15-11-2018 5:42pm

All aboard the Choo Choo train to who the fcuk knows where!

Seriously this is a mess today. Speech at 5pm will be very interesting!!

judeboy101 · 15-11-2018 5:43pm

Penn wrote: »

Astonishing that Rees-Mogg doesn't have the balls to go for the leadership himself after placing himself as one of May's harshest critics. Says everything about both the man and the situation the PM (or would-be PMs) would be in.

Can't, he is catholic.

An Ciarraioch · 15-11-2018 5:44pm

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

All aboard the Choo Choo train to who the fcuk knows where!

Seriously this is a mess today. Speech at 5pm will be very interesting!!

Lectern has a crest on it, so just a routine press briefing.

Penn · 15-11-2018 5:46pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

Can't, he is catholic.

He can. Tony Blair was Catholic. A quick Google shows that a Catholic can't be Head of State (due to becoming Head of the Church of England), but can be Prime Minister.

Edit: Actually, it seems Blair waiting until after he was finished as PM to convert to Catholicism. Either way, a Catholic PM would have to delegate certain responsibilities to the most senior CofE member of the Cabinet to advise on certain matters related to the CofE, but it does seem like a Catholic could still be PM.

gimli2112 · 15-11-2018 5:47pm

Farage on SN laughing in disbelief at the dishonesty of the government. The people he put into an improbable position and then exited rapidly.

Professor Moriarty · 15-11-2018 5:47pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

Can't, he is catholic.

There is no constitutional barrier to a Catholic becoming Prime Minister. A Catholic can't become monarch.

robinph · 15-11-2018 5:47pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

Can't, he is catholic.

What's that got to do with anything?

vektarman · 15-11-2018 5:48pm

I don't understand why the harshest Conservative party critics of May and the Brexit deal had their opportunity to influence the negotiations by becoming the Prime Minister yet they pulled out of the leadership race, I'm thinking of Boris Johnston in particular.

Professor Moriarty · 15-11-2018 5:48pm

Sky Poll:

Of the three Brexit outcomes Theresa May says are available, would you prefer a) her deal, b) no deal or c) no Brexit?

No Brexit 54%
No deal 32%
Her deal 14%

ilovesmybrick · 15-11-2018 5:49pm

The coverage on ZDF Heute for the past two years has been absolutely savage about the entire Brexit process. It's probably a good thing the papers in the UK never got wind of it!

judeboy101 · 15-11-2018 5:50pm

Penn wrote: »

He can. Tony Blair was Catholic. A quick Google shows that a Catholic can't be Head of State (due to becoming Head of the Church of England), but can be Prime Minister.

Became catholic AFTER left office, Jews or Catholics are forbidden from advising queen on appointments to Anglican hierarchy. That's a pm's job. By law a catholic or jew can't do that, 1828/1858 acts i believe (might b out on dates by year). The lord chancellor could act in pm's stead but as LC is in cabinet he would be subject to pm so again catholic advising on Anglican , nope. Can't happen

TheValeyard · 15-11-2018 5:51pm

Penn wrote: »

He can. Tony Blair was Catholic. A quick Google shows that a Catholic can't be Head of State (due to becoming Head of the Church of England), but can be Prime Minister.

Think Tony Blair converted after he left office? Must do some googling!

judeboy101 · 15-11-2018 5:51pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

There is no constitutional barrier to a Catholic becoming Prime Minister. A Catholic can't become monarch.

Catholics can't be pm, do bit of research on catholic relief act.

bilston · 15-11-2018 5:52pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Sky Poll:

Of the three Brexit outcomes Theresa May says are available, would you prefer a) her deal, b) no deal or c) no Brexit?

No Brexit 54%
No deal 32%
Her deal 14%

The chances are some of the 14% saying "her deal" would vote to remain in another In/Out referendum. So you could easily be looking at over 55% support for Remain (albeit it's one poll).

judeboy101 · 15-11-2018 5:52pm

robinph wrote: »

What's that got to do with anything?

Rules prohibit Catholics or jews advising queen on Anglican issues, only pm as head of cabinet can do this.

Penn · 15-11-2018 5:53pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

Became catholic AFTER left office, Jews or Catholics are forbidden from accusing queen on appointments to Anglican hierarchy. That's a pm's job. By law a catholic or jew can't do that, 1828/1858 acts i believe (might b out on dates by year). The lord chancellor could act in pm's stead but as LC is in cabinet he would be subject to pm so again catholic advising on Anglican , nope. Can't happen

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Think Tony Blair converted after he left office? Must do some googling!

Edited my post after more looking into it myself. I would still stand by that they could be PM, but that it's not as simple. Still though, I doubt that would ever put JRM off going for it if he wanted it.

Spanish Eyes · 15-11-2018 5:53pm

Penn wrote: »

Astonishing that Rees-Mogg doesn't have the balls to go for the leadership himself after placing himself as one of May's harshest critics. Says everything about both the man and the situation the PM (or would-be PMs) would be in.

He would have had to put his nanny forward as proxy. The man cannot tie his own shoelaces.

prawnsambo · 15-11-2018 5:53pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Indeed. A very small bunch though.

I actually have yet to hear an MP say something accurate about NI, article 50, the EU or even brexit.

Maybe they can claim to be idiots like Nadine Dorries, Dominic Raab or Andrew Bridgen, but a lot of them should definitely know better, yet continue to peddle the same lies as JRM was doing today. I heard Anna Soubry on the radio as well, asking where the future trade deal for the UK was in the dosument. She actually expected this.

Anthracite · 15-11-2018 5:53pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

By law a catholic or jew can't do that, 1828/1858 acts i believe (might b out on dates by year)

I seem to recall asking for evidence of this previously, but none was forthcoming. Can you tell us more about these acts, or link us to the info?

Professor Moriarty · 15-11-2018 5:54pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

Catholics can't be pm, do bit of research on catholic relief act.

From the BBC:

"There has never been a Roman Catholic prime minister of Britain, although there is no constitutional barrier to such a move."

bilston · 15-11-2018 5:54pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

Rules prohibit Catholics or jews advising queen on Anglican issues, only pm as head of cabinet can do this.

Was Benjamin Disraeli not Jewish?

charlie14 · 15-11-2018 5:55pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

Can't, he is catholic.

No law preventing a Catholic becoming BritishPM.

Blair practically was. Converted after he left politics but was a mass attender during his time as PM.
Benjamin Disraeli born a jew was twice PM

judeboy101 · 15-11-2018 5:56pm

Anthracite wrote: »

I seem to recall asking for evidence of this previously, but none was forthcoming. Can you tell us more about these acts, or link us to the info?

Every Irish person learned about this as kids. We called it "Catholic emancipation"

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo4/10/7/contents

Zubeneschamali · 15-11-2018 5:57pm

JRM is not banned from being Prime Minister because he is a catholic, he's banned because he isn't real, he is the villain from a Dickens novel who escaped into the world.

Kermit.de.frog · 15-11-2018 5:58pm

Reports Gove might have turned down Brexit sec position.

May to speak now.

flatty · 15-11-2018 5:59pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Are there not some occasions where the will of the misled, uneducated and willfully ignorant can justifiably be ignored?

Almost the entire Parliamentary Labour party disagreed with Brexit. And the majority of the conservative party.

For a reason.

I think that was an occasion for real leadership and real politicians.

Britain didn't have any.

In fairness, they did. Anna Soubry et al. Little more they could have done. They exposed themselves to hatred, bile and death threats.

megatron989 · 15-11-2018 6:00pm

As for the polls, didn't they predict a remain vote pre referendum the first time? Just as polls said trump wouldn't get in.
Don't know how much I'd trust the British public if given another go. They might just double down.

robinph · 15-11-2018 6:00pm

Not sure it's much of an issue if the PM isn't allowed to advise on religious matters, I wouldn't expect them to in the first place as it's got nothing to do with them being a politician.

prawnsambo · 15-11-2018 6:01pm

megatron989 wrote: »

As for the polls, didn't they predict a remain vote pre referendum the first time? Just as polls said trump wouldn't get in.
Don't know how much I'd trust the British public if given another go. They might just double down.

They did. But it was inside the margin for error. In fact the trend was towards leave iirc.

Mr.Nice Guy · 15-11-2018 6:02pm

Wonder will May assume control of the Brexit Secretary position herself if Gove turns it down?

megatron989 · 15-11-2018 6:04pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

They did. But it was inside the margin for error. In fact the trend was towards leave iirc.

Yea that sounds familiar alright. I just wouldn't feel strong confidence in them acting in their self interests given some of the rubbish we hear, even today on the BBC. Absolute madness, and little wonder things have gotten to this point.

Anthracite · 15-11-2018 6:05pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

Every Irish person learned about this as kids. We called it "Catholic emancipation"

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo4/10/7/contents

I don't see anything there that says a catholic cannot be PM, even assuming the act still stands.

one armed dwarf · 15-11-2018 6:06pm

I remember reading leave leaning polls in the final week of the referendum in the Evening Standard. That's when the "ruh roh" started to really set in.

Amirani · 15-11-2018 6:06pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Wonder will May assume control of the Brexit Secretary position herself if Gove turns it down?

I think that's probably the best thing for her to do now. She lives or dies on whatever happens with these Brexit negotiations, so no points having a firewall anymore.

RobertKK · 15-11-2018 6:08pm

This is like a soap opera, with a what happens next???

The only good outcome is a referendum that overturns this absolute disaster they voted for.
The situation in the UK reminds me of the uncertainty we had when the banks went broke and our bonds rates went sky high making borrowing impossible.
There was like a darkness over the country then, there is a similar darkness over the UK given the deal won't pass in parliament and no deal is just really really bad self harm.
At least they have a possible exit route, whether they end up taking it with a new referendum, we have to see.

Dytalus · 15-11-2018 6:08pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

Every Irish person learned about this as kids. We called it "Catholic emancipation"

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo4/10/7/contents

12 Offices witheld from Roman Catholics.

Provided also, that nothing herein contained shall extend, or be construed to extend to enable any person or persons professing the Roman Catholic religion to hold or exercise the office of guardians and justices of the United Kingdom, or of regent of the United Kingdom, under whatever name, style, or title such office may be constituted; nor to enable any person, otherwise than as he is now by law enabled, to hold or enjoy the office of lord high chancellor, lord keeper or lord commissioner of the great seal of Great Britain . . . F1; or his Majesty’s high commissioner to the general assembly of the Church of Scotland.

Doesn't list Prime Minister. However:

18 No Roman Catholic to advise the Crown in the appointment to offices in the established church.

It shall not be lawful for any person professing the Roman Catholic religion directly or indirectly to advise his Majesty, or any person or persons holding or exercising the office of guardians of the United Kingdom, or of regent of the United Kingdom, under whatever name, style, or title such office may be constituted, [F1or the lord lieutenant of Ireland], touching or concerning the appointment to or disposal of any office or preferment in the [F2Church of England], or in the Church of Scotland; and if any such person shall offend in the premises he shall, being thereof convicted by due course of law, be deemed guilty of a high misdemeanor, and disabled for ever from holding any office, civil or military, under the Crown.

If this is normally under the resonsibility of the PM, it may indirectly not allow a Catholic to be Prime Minister.

However, it only means RCs cannot advise on appointments to Church of England offices. I wouldn't have thought this was a task for the Prime Minister anyway.

Harry Palmr · 15-11-2018 6:10pm

I think she's going to resign.

Kermit.de.frog · 15-11-2018 6:11pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

I think she's going to resign.

Resign for the leadership challenge would be best bet for her in my opinion.

She wins leadership challenge and it buys her another year.

Markcheese · 15-11-2018 6:11pm

seamus wrote: »

You would have to put it on the ballot though. "Do nothing" is not "Remain", because article 50 has already been triggered. "Do nothing" is "No deal".

I've had difficulty finding any international standards except that a referendum is typically expected to take the form of a proposal, and the electorate asked to accept or reject that proposal.

That's not say that a multiple-choice referendum, or an "Option A or Option B" referendum is impossible, but would be highly irregular, probably open to legal challenge.

In this case, you'd need multiple referenda:

- "The UK should sign the Brexit deal" (Accept/Reject)
- "The UK should withdraw its notification under article 50" (Accept/Reject)

In any case, I think another referendum is probably quite unlikely. There is absolutely nothing stopping Parliament from deciding to withdraw Article 50 (except the agreement of the EU). Another referendum is not required.

In the event that GE results, it will probably become a de facto referendum with parties campaigning on the basis of whether they'll cancel Brexit, accept the existing deal, or try to negotiate a new deal.

Wouldn't be that up on UK law, but because of their weird unwritten constitution thing, arent their referendums non binding, as in purely indicitive.. So they could arrange it anyway they want...

barry181091 · 15-11-2018 6:11pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

I think she's going to resign.

I bet you a chicken fillet roll she doesn't

kowtow · 15-11-2018 6:12pm

My guess is that May could put herself up for re-election here.

There's going to be a contest anyway so she might as well appear to be in control of events.

Amirani · 15-11-2018 6:12pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

I think she's going to resign.

BBC saying the press conference will just be to try sell her deal to the public.

gimli2112 · 15-11-2018 6:15pm

I find it hard to believe the vote on the deal is a private ballot. One of the most important votes in years. There's just no accountability in the place, self-preservation seems very important to them.

Spanish Eyes · 15-11-2018 6:15pm

She cannot resign and put herself up again. The rules changed following John Major doing this.

Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

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