Advise needed- 30 cows not in calf- what are options...

jus_tin4 · 24-11-2019 8:34pm #1

Hi guys,

Without going into the how’s and whys(there has been enough rows here over how they were missed), there has been over 30 cows not pregnant which were due to be our spring Calves..

Issue is they weren’t caught when around so I’m trying to see what are the beat solutions to this in the short term and also in the medium terms?

Is there any alternatives to not having a bull running with them? Is there any technology that anyone uses that detects cows coming into heat?

Any advice really would be great!

Thanks,
Justin

Grueller · 24-11-2019 8:41pm

jus_tin4 wrote: »

Hi guys,

Without going into the how’s and whys(there has been enough rows here over how they were missed), there has been over 30 cows not pregnant which were due to be our spring Calves..

Issue is they weren’t caught when around so I’m trying to see what are the beat solutions to this in the short term and also in the medium terms?

Is there any alternatives to not having a bull running with them? Is there any technology that anyone uses that detects cows coming into heat?

Any advice really would be great!

Thanks,
Justin

Dairy or sucklers?

JeffKenna · 24-11-2019 8:45pm

I'd be worried that they weren't missed and were in calf but aborted along the way. Seems strange you wouldn't have noticed them bulling at some stage?

tanko · 24-11-2019 8:51pm

I'm assuming your using Ai and don't have a bull??
All Ai here, have 2 or 3 yearling bullocks with each group of cows, they put in most of a day after a cow in heat, cows checked twice a day, think they're a great job.

Jb1989 · 24-11-2019 9:04pm

tanko wrote: »

I'm assuming your using Ai and don't have a bull??
All Ai here, have 2 or 3 yearling bullocks with each group of cows, they put in most of a day after a cow in heat, cows checked twice a day, think they're a great job.

I assume the opposite, put the bull out and left him to it, I'd very rarely see mine mounting so would just assume he was working.

jus_tin4 · 24-11-2019 9:16pm

tanko wrote: »

I'm assuming your using Ai and don't have a bull??
All Ai here, have 2 or 3 yearling bullocks with each group of cows, they put in most of a day after a cow in heat, cows checked twice a day, think they're a great job.

Sorry should have been clearer in that! We are all AI!

We had a very out to scan them, surely he would have noticed an underlying issue?

It seem mostly likely down to the cows not been caught coming into heat if anything. I guess I’m trying to figure out a way too not let it happen again....

kingdomfan · 24-11-2019 9:36pm

jus_tin4 wrote: »

Sorry should have been clearer in that! We are all AI!

We had a very out to scan them, surely he would have noticed an underlying issue?

It seem mostly likely down to the cows not been caught coming into heat if anything. I guess I’m trying to figure out a way too not let it happen again....

Would this be of any use to you

https://moocall.com/products/moocall-heat-1

whelan2 · 24-11-2019 9:43pm

Do you tail paint?

tanko · 24-11-2019 9:49pm

How did you find them bulling every other year?
A vasectomised bull with a chain ball harness is supposed to be the bees knees for heat detection, have never used one here tho. Then there's stuff like tail painting, heat detection patches, moocall heat time collars etc.
With 30 cows in a field it should be very easy to find them bulling for the first three weeks of the breeding season even looking at them twice a day unless there's something wrong with them.

valtra2 · 24-11-2019 9:50pm

We're the 30 ai'ed. Started doing ai here a few years ago and found the best thing I done was a big whiteboard with all dates wrote down and repeat dates down so if anything is a msybe you just check the board and can see it easy. Not a expensive thing but the best investment I have. It also is what my ai man looks at when he comes so he knows what straw to give to cow. Plus one on letting in a few weanling bullocks. I don't buy in anything so they are used as my vacitimised bull

hopeso · 24-11-2019 9:51pm

Is this 30 cows out of a larger number, or is 30 the entire herd? Were any of the 30 served at all?

josephsoap · 24-11-2019 10:42pm

tanko wrote: »

I'm assuming your using Ai and don't have a bull??
All Ai here, have 2 or 3 yearling bullocks with each group of cows, they put in most of a day after a cow in heat, cows checked twice a day, think they're a great job.

Do you A.I them yourself Tanko ? Or use an A.I man?

tanko · 24-11-2019 11:47pm

josephsoap wrote: »

Do you A.I them yourself Tanko ? Or use an A.I man?

Do them myself.

keysersoze1 · 25-11-2019 12:27am

Could they have been infected with bvd

longgonesilver · 25-11-2019 12:35am

How well are they milking now? How high are their cellcounts? What is their main breeding?

Depending on the above it is possible to keep some cows milking for an extended lactation and try to put them back in calf again, or you could cull/fatten them and use the money to buy replacements.

893bet · 25-11-2019 9:09am

Were all thirty served?

It seems late in the day to realise they are not in calf?

How big is herd?

dohc turbo2 · 25-11-2019 9:36am

I wonder is this common ? My young lad was out on work experience lately Scannimg and he said there was a heap of cows empty , one was 17 out of 50 and 30 out of 80 in 2 yards he was in

Limestone Cowboy · 25-11-2019 10:11am

Moocall heat on a vasectomised bull if you are hell bent on ai'ing but he'll still be a bull. 30 cows is some amount to have empty. Were any of them served?

jus_tin4 · 25-11-2019 10:24am

All cows were AI’ed once at least by an AI man. Last year this lad had a very high 1st time serve success rate of about 60/70% so I’m not too sure I can account to much blame on that.

I believe the issue was there was a change over here with with a retirement and a new lad starting. I believe that’s where the issue arised.

I have gone nuts at what has happen as 30 cows is going to mess us up, but at this point I need to just try figure a way out rather than blame anyone.. hence why I hadn’t mentioned this previously.

Again thanks for all the advise/opinions so far.

jus_tin4 · 25-11-2019 10:24am

dohc turbo2 wrote: »

I wonder is this common ? My young lad was out on work experience lately Scannimg and he said there was a heap of cows empty , one was 17 out of 50 and 30 out of 80 in 2 yards he was in

If you find out can you let me know??

jus_tin4 · 25-11-2019 10:27am

893bet wrote: »

Were all thirty served?

It seems late in the day to realise they are not in calf?

How big is herd?

Yeah all served once at least!

Yeah it is, I’m not in control of the day to day, my mam is and it’s only after raising its head...

Head is 54. There is enough in calf cows to keep the show going(count last night was 43 in calf) but some of these would have been expected to be replaced..

I guess I’m trying to get a solution for this not to happen again....

jus_tin4 · 25-11-2019 10:28am

whelan2 wrote: »

Do you tail paint?

We use the heat detector patches. I’m not a fan of these personally and would prefer paint but it was a decision taken that was out of my control

Mooooo · 25-11-2019 10:42am

If it's your mam doing the day to day having a bull is an extra risk. With ai it is all about submission rates so catching them is the main thing. The scratch cards and those type are considered good enough so I wouldn't say using paint over them would make much of a difference. Checking the herd for activity 2 or 3 times a day. Early morning is best so before work would be a way you could help if you are near home. Incalf rates are up and down around the country. It would be an idea to blood test a part of the herd could be lepto or something in the background affecting fertility. Esp if it seemed like they held early, lepto could cause a cow to lose the pregnancy with not much sign as opposed to salmonella which would cause abortions later on.
With regard to the 30 empty cows, do the figures it may be more viable to sell those and buy in incalf cow's.

jaymla627 · 25-11-2019 10:49am

jus_tin4 wrote: »

Yeah all served once at least!

Yeah it is, I’m not in control of the day to day, my mam is and it’s only after raising its head...

Head is 54. There is enough in calf cows to keep the show going(count last night was 43 in calf) but some of these would have been expected to be replaced..

I guess I’m trying to get a solution for this not to happen again....

Have scr tag system here, had 10 cows this year that where incalf but reabsorbed eymbroyos, and came back into heat 4 months after last ai, their is a touch of schellemberg going around I reckon had cows displayong clinically signs of it, but the department dont bother providing testing for it anymore

hopeso · 25-11-2019 11:38am

jus_tin4 wrote: »

We had a very out to scan them, surely he would have noticed an underlying issue?

I assume this says a vet scanned them? In which case I’d ask did he actually scan them or just handle them? I know from experience that a vet handling them is not accurate.
As for noticing anything, he would need to do blood tests to get any reliable answers.

lalababa · 25-11-2019 11:43am

These things happen alot when one stock person is retiring and a new one coming in. A lack of communication coupled with lack of experience. The old ways of detection (observation) maybe unsuitable for the new stockperson. In that respect a new method &
procedure along with recording may be used such as tail painting/heat detectors/teaser bull. Don't know much about enforced synchronized cycling, or if it is used in dairy cows

25-11-2019 11:45am

Nobody’s asking what condition the cows are in , how they were treated during the spring. I don’t know the ops setup but some for some, it’s a race to cut out meal as soon as cows hit grass

mahoney_j · 25-11-2019 12:05pm

So many reasons why that many cows are empty ,could be disease like ibr ,lepto,could be minerals like copper/selenium /iodine ,could be nutritional ,could be a case of just not been picked up etc the actual scan results versus what a lot of lads quote needs to be taken into account too .from vets /scanners this year heifers seem to be very good but cows are very hit and miss empty rates of up to 20% and higher are very common
At this stage no point creating a row just off load the culls and buy back in calf stock .work with vet to put vaccination plan in place .on an aid to picking up cows in heat a simple relatively low cost system is moo call heat ,tags on cows ,collar on bull and when in heat I get a text to your phone

tanko · 25-11-2019 1:01pm

jus_tin4 wrote: »

All cows were AI’ed once at least by an AI man. Last year this lad had a very high 1st time serve success rate of about 60/70% so I’m not too sure I can account to much blame on that.

I believe the issue was there was a change over here with with a retirement and a new lad starting. I believe that’s where the issue arised.

I have gone nuts at what has happen as 30 cows is going to mess us up, but at this point I need to just try figure a way out rather than blame anyone.. hence why I hadn’t mentioned this previously.

Again thanks for all the advise/opinions so far.

Are you saying that the technician who retired was getting the cows in calf but when the new one started they didn't get them in calf?
When some one is Ai'ing cows they will know full well if they're doing it properly or not. Lots of cows repeating after three weeks should start alarm bells ringing with everyone involved, farmer, Ai technician and Ai company.

jus_tin4 · 25-11-2019 1:14pm

tanko wrote: »

Are you saying that the technician who retired was getting the cows in calf but when the new one started they didn't get them in calf?
When some one is Ai'ing cows they will know full well if they're doing it properly or not. Lots of cows repeating after three weeks should start alarm bells ringing with everyone involved, farmer, Ai technician and Ai company.

No I think you picked me up wrong/my explaination wasn’t correct!

These same cows all went in calf on the majority on their first serve with a new AI person last year. So I guess my reasoning is I’m cutting that out at a factor for this issue..

I believe the main problem was the change over/break down in communication si cows weren’t caught and served again if needed

jus_tin4 · 25-11-2019 1:15pm

1373 wrote: »

Nobody’s asking what condition the cows are in , how they were treated during the spring. I don’t know the ops setup but some for some, it’s a race to cut out meal as soon as cows hit grass

Cows are in good condition, given bolus and dosed. I don’t think this is a factor. Meal isn’t cut out here until mid summer for about 2 months.

Mooooo · 25-11-2019 1:33pm

Dairy cow's I assume? Once breeding starts I don't cut back on ration until it ends. Others do and it works fine but I'm not at that level yet. In order to prevent a repeat of what happened this year a system will have to be put in place to ensure it doesnt

jus_tin4 · 25-11-2019 1:47pm

mahoney_j wrote: »

So many reasons why that many cows are empty ,could be disease like ibr ,lepto,could be minerals like copper/selenium /iodine ,could be nutritional ,could be a case of just not been picked up etc the actual scan results versus what a lot of lads quote needs to be taken into account too .from vets /scanners this year heifers seem to be very good but cows are very hit and miss empty rates of up to 20% and higher are very common
At this stage no point creating a row just off load the culls and buy back in calf stock .work with vet to put vaccination plan in place .on an aid to picking up cows in heat a simple relatively low cost system is moo call heat ,tags on cows ,collar on bull and when in heat I get a text to your phone

What would cause those diseases? In recent memory there has never really been any underlying conditions other than an odd cow with a cyst...

With the moo call, I’m guessing it doesn’t have to be a bull? I’m guessing a bullock could be use for the same purpose?

jus_tin4 · 25-11-2019 1:51pm

Mooooo wrote: »

Dairy cow's I assume? Once breeding starts I don't cut back on ration until it ends. Others do and it works fine but I'm not at that level yet. In order to prevent a repeat of what happened this year a system will have to be put in place to ensure it doesnt

Yeah, while I say it’s pulled back it’s not a hard line that it’s cut. It maybe cut back in term of quantity but it depends on how the cows are going and the grass quality..

Yeah while my aim is to try to fix it, my goal is to put something in place to stop it. Moocall looks like the recommended option which would allow me to monitor it for my mother while I work my day job.

Our scenario isn’t straight forward and ideally I’d prefer to be in the farm, but it isn’t an option at this point t in time due to a number of reason I don’t want to discuss in public...

Thanks again for all the help

Millionaire only not · 25-11-2019 1:58pm

dohc turbo2 wrote: »

I wonder is this common ? My young lad was out on work experience lately Scannimg and he said there was a heap of cows empty , one was 17 out of 50 and 30 out of 80 in 2 yards he was in

It’s common , but people don’t talk !
Plus heap of disease out there all covered up , virus’s infected since calves never milk to full potential !
Cows milking hard are more prone to nic

I often wonder about high milking cows should they be asked to back in calf in a 12 month cycle- ur stopping them in prime production from making money !

Millionaire only not · 25-11-2019 2:07pm

jus_tin4 wrote: »

Yeah, while I say it’s pulled back it’s not a hard line that it’s cut. It maybe cut back in term of quantity but it depends on how the cows are going and the grass quality..

Yeah while my aim is to try to fix it, my goal is to put something in place to stop it. Moocall looks like the recommended option which would allow me to monitor it for my mother while I work my day job.

Our scenario isn’t straight forward and ideally I’d prefer to be in the farm, but it isn’t an option at this point t in time due to a number of reason I don’t want to discuss in public...

Thanks again for all the help

I’d be more inclined to put in more bulls , if ur not there urself to pick up heats !
I always keep bulls changed around as they will go infertile at some period in the year or so they say !
Heat detection aids are only as good as the person that’s overseeing it !
Plus they cost a fortune

25-11-2019 2:39pm

mahoney_j wrote: »

So many reasons why that many cows are empty ,could be disease like ibr ,lepto,could be minerals like copper/selenium /iodine ,could be nutritional ,could be a case of just not been picked up etc the actual scan results versus what a lot of lads quote needs to be taken into account too .from vets /scanners this year heifers seem to be very good but cows are very hit and miss empty rates of up to 20% and higher are very common
At this stage no point creating a row just off load the culls and buy back in calf stock .work with vet to put vaccination plan in place .on an aid to picking up cows in heat a simple relatively low cost system is moo call heat ,tags on cows ,collar on bull and when in heat I get a text to your phone

A little ironic telling him to buy in more cows but then telling him about disease and vaccination problems. He needs to pinpoint why a third of the herd are not performing before he buys more problems

Buford T. Justice XIX · 25-11-2019 2:40pm

jus_tin4 wrote: »

No I think you picked me up wrong/my explaination wasn’t correct!

These same cows all went in calf on the majority on their first serve with a new AI person last year. So I guess my reasoning is I’m cutting that out at a factor for this issue..

I believe the main problem was the change over/break down in communication si cows weren’t caught and served again if needed

Just on that, were there any signs of heat in the cows since being served? Hair gone off the tail head or the the pin bones bruised?

If there was sign of heat then I'd say just a breakdown in communication but if there was no signs of heat in most of them, I'd be looking at embryo losses or reabsorbed after going incalf. That would push me in the direction of some disease or change of significant change of feed or management during or after the breeding season?

25-11-2019 2:50pm

Millionaire only not wrote: »

I’d be more inclined to put in more bulls , if ur not there urself to pick up heats !
I always keep bulls changed around as they will go infertile at some period in the year or so they say !
Heat detection aids are only as good as the person that’s overseeing it !
Plus they cost a fortune

If everything else is ok , 2 bulls in from the start would probably prevent this sort of problem

blue5000 · 25-11-2019 4:25pm

How much N are you using in Spring Justin? High N can cause embryonic loss. Are you blanket spreading urea by any chance?

Millionaire only not · 25-11-2019 11:52pm

I’ve often seen that cows only show heat after being scanned or handled , would have shown nothing before this !
There is a lot of problems being covered up listening to the lads scanning going around the country
Cows not being fed , listening to Teagasc , we were always thought when breeding season on ewes there diet had to be a rising platter for breeding season .

Why should cows be any different , grass just not good enough !

older by the day · 26-11-2019 12:33am

A vectomised bull with heat seekers on the cows back might work. What I would do is AI for a few weeks and an Angus bull to mop up. Sell him away after a month. But I would ask a vet and get a few blood tests done, if u haven't

jus_tin4 · 29-11-2019 6:18pm

Just a very quick update!

So we relooked at all the information we had regard and it may not be as bad as i first thought!

We have talked to the vet and he is happy that there is no underlying issues that we arent already aware off!

Secondly the AI ,am also gave good reports of the cows. He is a local lad and would be a good man for finishing and he said our cows are the best he is serving(there is a long pedigree in our heard with zero animal bought in - we most focues on dairy i should say but would carrying dairy beef just by the nture of things)

The clear thing is the lads working fecked up....

our solution is to now be on high alert to catch any heats even if it is our of our normal cycle!

Plan to also bring in moo call once the cows are back out as if we put a a tease in now it could result in injuries with him getting bullied and the sheds arent the biggest for that sorta thing!

Anyways! Thanks for all the advice and opinions! Gave me alot of food for thought!

greysides · 29-11-2019 8:40pm

As a monitoring method, you could arrange regular visits from your vet over the breeding season. During these visits all cows not seen in heat after six weeks calved, all cows that had any calving or illness issues since calving, etc, and all cows not repeating six weeks after AI could be examined to resolve problems or confirm pregnancy.
This should allow any problems to be picked up earlier. All cows could be checked again around drying off to find any that lost calves at a later stage.

Advise needed- 30 cows not in calf- what are options...

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