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Advise needed- 30 cows not in calf- what are options...

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  • 24-11-2019 8:34pm
    #1
    jus_tin4
    Registered Users Posts: 432 ✭✭


    Hi guys,

    Without going into the how’s and whys(there has been enough rows here over how they were missed), there has been over 30 cows not pregnant which were due to be our spring Calves..

    Issue is they weren’t caught when around so I’m trying to see what are the beat solutions to this in the short term and also in the medium terms?

    Is there any alternatives to not having a bull running with them? Is there any technology that anyone uses that detects cows coming into heat?

    Any advice really would be great!

    Thanks,
    Justin


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    #2
    Grueller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭Grueller


    jus_tin4 wrote: »
    Hi guys,

    Without going into the how’s and whys(there has been enough rows here over how they were missed), there has been over 30 cows not pregnant which were due to be our spring Calves..

    Issue is they weren’t caught when around so I’m trying to see what are the beat solutions to this in the short term and also in the medium terms?

    Is there any alternatives to not having a bull running with them? Is there any technology that anyone uses that detects cows coming into heat?

    Any advice really would be great!

    Thanks,
    Justin

    Dairy or sucklers?


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    #3
    JeffKenna
    Registered Users Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭JeffKenna


    I'd be worried that they weren't missed and were in calf but aborted along the way. Seems strange you wouldn't have noticed them bulling at some stage?


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    #4
    tanko
    Registered Users Posts: 9,212 ✭✭✭tanko


    I'm assuming your using Ai and don't have a bull??
    All Ai here, have 2 or 3 yearling bullocks with each group of cows, they put in most of a day after a cow in heat, cows checked twice a day, think they're a great job.


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    #5
    Jb1989
    Registered Users Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Jb1989


    tanko wrote: »
    I'm assuming your using Ai and don't have a bull??
    All Ai here, have 2 or 3 yearling bullocks with each group of cows, they put in most of a day after a cow in heat, cows checked twice a day, think they're a great job.

    I assume the opposite, put the bull out and left him to it, I'd very rarely see mine mounting so would just assume he was working.


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    #6
    jus_tin4
    Registered Users Posts: 432 ✭✭jus_tin4


    tanko wrote: »
    I'm assuming your using Ai and don't have a bull??
    All Ai here, have 2 or 3 yearling bullocks with each group of cows, they put in most of a day after a cow in heat, cows checked twice a day, think they're a great job.

    Sorry should have been clearer in that! We are all AI!

    We had a very out to scan them, surely he would have noticed an underlying issue?

    It seem mostly likely down to the cows not been caught coming into heat if anything. I guess I’m trying to figure out a way too not let it happen again....


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    #7
    kingdomfan
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭kingdomfan


    jus_tin4 wrote: »
    Sorry should have been clearer in that! We are all AI!

    We had a very out to scan them, surely he would have noticed an underlying issue?

    It seem mostly likely down to the cows not been caught coming into heat if anything. I guess I’m trying to figure out a way too not let it happen again....

    Would this be of any use to you

    https://moocall.com/products/moocall-heat-1


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    #8
    whelan2
    Registered Users Posts: 29,123 ✭✭✭✭whelan2


    Do you tail paint?


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    #9
    tanko
    Registered Users Posts: 9,212 ✭✭✭tanko


    How did you find them bulling every other year?
    A vasectomised bull with a chain ball harness is supposed to be the bees knees for heat detection, have never used one here tho. Then there's stuff like tail painting, heat detection patches, moocall heat time collars etc.
    With 30 cows in a field it should be very easy to find them bulling for the first three weeks of the breeding season even looking at them twice a day unless there's something wrong with them.


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    #10
    valtra2
    Registered Users Posts: 726 ✭✭✭valtra2


    We're the 30 ai'ed. Started doing ai here a few years ago and found the best thing I done was a big whiteboard with all dates wrote down and repeat dates down so if anything is a msybe you just check the board and can see it easy. Not a expensive thing but the best investment I have. It also is what my ai man looks at when he comes so he knows what straw to give to cow. Plus one on letting in a few weanling bullocks. I don't buy in anything so they are used as my vacitimised bull


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    #11
    hopeso
    Registered Users Posts: 1,401 ✭✭✭hopeso


    Is this 30 cows out of a larger number, or is 30 the entire herd? Were any of the 30 served at all?


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    #12
    josephsoap
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭josephsoap


    tanko wrote: »
    I'm assuming your using Ai and don't have a bull??
    All Ai here, have 2 or 3 yearling bullocks with each group of cows, they put in most of a day after a cow in heat, cows checked twice a day, think they're a great job.

    Do you A.I them yourself Tanko ? Or use an A.I man?


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    #13
    tanko
    Registered Users Posts: 9,212 ✭✭✭tanko


    josephsoap wrote: »
    Do you A.I them yourself Tanko ? Or use an A.I man?

    Do them myself.


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    #14
    keysersoze1
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭keysersoze1


    Could they have been infected with bvd


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    #15
    longgonesilver
    Registered Users Posts: 734 ✭✭✭longgonesilver


    How well are they milking now? How high are their cellcounts? What is their main breeding?

    Depending on the above it is possible to keep some cows milking for an extended lactation and try to put them back in calf again, or you could cull/fatten them and use the money to buy replacements.


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    #16
    893bet
    Registered Users Posts: 8,762 ✭✭✭893bet


    Were all thirty served?

    It seems late in the day to realise they are not in calf?

    How big is herd?


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    #17
    dohc turbo2
    Registered Users Posts: 838 ✭✭✭dohc turbo2


    I wonder is this common ? My young lad was out on work experience lately Scannimg and he said there was a heap of cows empty , one was 17 out of 50 and 30 out of 80 in 2 yards he was in


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    #18
    Limestone Cowboy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,519 ✭✭✭Limestone Cowboy


    Moocall heat on a vasectomised bull if you are hell bent on ai'ing but he'll still be a bull. 30 cows is some amount to have empty. Were any of them served?


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    #19
    jus_tin4
    Registered Users Posts: 432 ✭✭jus_tin4


    All cows were AI’ed once at least by an AI man. Last year this lad had a very high 1st time serve success rate of about 60/70% so I’m not too sure I can account to much blame on that.

    I believe the issue was there was a change over here with with a retirement and a new lad starting. I believe that’s where the issue arised.

    I have gone nuts at what has happen as 30 cows is going to mess us up, but at this point I need to just try figure a way out rather than blame anyone.. hence why I hadn’t mentioned this previously.

    Again thanks for all the advise/opinions so far.


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    #20
    jus_tin4
    Registered Users Posts: 432 ✭✭jus_tin4


    dohc turbo2 wrote: »
    I wonder is this common ? My young lad was out on work experience lately Scannimg and he said there was a heap of cows empty , one was 17 out of 50 and 30 out of 80 in 2 yards he was in

    If you find out can you let me know??


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    #21
    jus_tin4
    Registered Users Posts: 432 ✭✭jus_tin4


    893bet wrote: »
    Were all thirty served?

    It seems late in the day to realise they are not in calf?

    How big is herd?

    Yeah all served once at least!

    Yeah it is, I’m not in control of the day to day, my mam is and it’s only after raising its head...

    Head is 54. There is enough in calf cows to keep the show going(count last night was 43 in calf) but some of these would have been expected to be replaced..

    I guess I’m trying to get a solution for this not to happen again....


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    #22
    jus_tin4
    Registered Users Posts: 432 ✭✭jus_tin4


    whelan2 wrote: »
    Do you tail paint?

    We use the heat detector patches. I’m not a fan of these personally and would prefer paint but it was a decision taken that was out of my control


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    #23
    Mooooo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,611 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    If it's your mam doing the day to day having a bull is an extra risk. With ai it is all about submission rates so catching them is the main thing. The scratch cards and those type are considered good enough so I wouldn't say using paint over them would make much of a difference. Checking the herd for activity 2 or 3 times a day. Early morning is best so before work would be a way you could help if you are near home. Incalf rates are up and down around the country. It would be an idea to blood test a part of the herd could be lepto or something in the background affecting fertility. Esp if it seemed like they held early, lepto could cause a cow to lose the pregnancy with not much sign as opposed to salmonella which would cause abortions later on.
    With regard to the 30 empty cows, do the figures it may be more viable to sell those and buy in incalf cow's.


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    #24
    jaymla627
    Registered Users Posts: 6,472 ✭✭✭jaymla627


    jus_tin4 wrote: »
    Yeah all served once at least!

    Yeah it is, I’m not in control of the day to day, my mam is and it’s only after raising its head...

    Head is 54. There is enough in calf cows to keep the show going(count last night was 43 in calf) but some of these would have been expected to be replaced..

    I guess I’m trying to get a solution for this not to happen again....

    Have scr tag system here, had 10 cows this year that where incalf but reabsorbed eymbroyos, and came back into heat 4 months after last ai, their is a touch of schellemberg going around I reckon had cows displayong clinically signs of it, but the department dont bother providing testing for it anymore


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    #25
    hopeso
    Registered Users Posts: 1,401 ✭✭✭hopeso


    jus_tin4 wrote: »

    We had a very out to scan them, surely he would have noticed an underlying issue?

    I assume this says a vet scanned them? In which case I’d ask did he actually scan them or just handle them? I know from experience that a vet handling them is not accurate.
    As for noticing anything, he would need to do blood tests to get any reliable answers.


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    #26
    lalababa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭lalababa


    These things happen alot when one stock person is retiring and a new one coming in. A lack of communication coupled with lack of experience. The old ways of detection (observation) maybe unsuitable for the new stockperson. In that respect a new method &
    procedure along with recording may be used such as tail painting/heat detectors/teaser bull. Don't know much about enforced synchronized cycling, or if it is used in dairy cows


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    #27
    1373
    Registered Users Posts: 525 ✭✭✭1373


    Nobody’s asking what condition the cows are in , how they were treated during the spring. I don’t know the ops setup but some for some, it’s a race to cut out meal as soon as cows hit grass


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    #28
    mahoney_j
    Registered Users Posts: 11,082 ✭✭✭✭mahoney_j


    So many reasons why that many cows are empty ,could be disease like ibr ,lepto,could be minerals like copper/selenium /iodine ,could be nutritional ,could be a case of just not been picked up etc the actual scan results versus what a lot of lads quote needs to be taken into account too .from vets /scanners this year heifers seem to be very good but cows are very hit and miss empty rates of up to 20% and higher are very common
    At this stage no point creating a row just off load the culls and buy back in calf stock .work with vet to put vaccination plan in place .on an aid to picking up cows in heat a simple relatively low cost system is moo call heat ,tags on cows ,collar on bull and when in heat I get a text to your phone


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    #29
    tanko
    Registered Users Posts: 9,212 ✭✭✭tanko


    jus_tin4 wrote: »
    All cows were AI’ed once at least by an AI man. Last year this lad had a very high 1st time serve success rate of about 60/70% so I’m not too sure I can account to much blame on that.

    I believe the issue was there was a change over here with with a retirement and a new lad starting. I believe that’s where the issue arised.

    I have gone nuts at what has happen as 30 cows is going to mess us up, but at this point I need to just try figure a way out rather than blame anyone.. hence why I hadn’t mentioned this previously.

    Again thanks for all the advise/opinions so far.

    Are you saying that the technician who retired was getting the cows in calf but when the new one started they didn't get them in calf?
    When some one is Ai'ing cows they will know full well if they're doing it properly or not. Lots of cows repeating after three weeks should start alarm bells ringing with everyone involved, farmer, Ai technician and Ai company.


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    #30
    jus_tin4
    Registered Users Posts: 432 ✭✭jus_tin4


    tanko wrote: »
    Are you saying that the technician who retired was getting the cows in calf but when the new one started they didn't get them in calf?
    When some one is Ai'ing cows they will know full well if they're doing it properly or not. Lots of cows repeating after three weeks should start alarm bells ringing with everyone involved, farmer, Ai technician and Ai company.

    No I think you picked me up wrong/my explaination wasn’t correct!

    These same cows all went in calf on the majority on their first serve with a new AI person last year. So I guess my reasoning is I’m cutting that out at a factor for this issue..

    I believe the main problem was the change over/break down in communication si cows weren’t caught and served again if needed


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    #31
    jus_tin4
    Registered Users Posts: 432 ✭✭jus_tin4


    1373 wrote: »
    Nobody’s asking what condition the cows are in , how they were treated during the spring. I don’t know the ops setup but some for some, it’s a race to cut out meal as soon as cows hit grass

    Cows are in good condition, given bolus and dosed. I don’t think this is a factor. Meal isn’t cut out here until mid summer for about 2 months.


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