Random Wrestling Thoughts (Part 2)

Agent Coulson · 23-04-2019 10:51pm

Not really I like Corbin too.

J. Marston · 23-04-2019 10:58pm

I hate him and not in the "good" way. Recent Daniel Bryan against Kofi, for instance, I can think "God, what a bastard!" when I'm listening to him.

Corbin though is instant look at my phone heat. His look is garbage, terrible promo and crowds don't boo when he comes out. They groan. When he was the constable and in 6 or 7 segments every Raw, it's no surprise the show hit record low ratings. Just last night when you had him in two matches and in the main event, the ratings dropped again. He's awful.

Rant over....but it won't be my last on Corbin!

SureYWouldntYa · 24-04-2019 12:06am

I think WWE love him because he's a proper homegrown talent who was fully trained in the NXT system

He's probably the most successful one when it comes to NXT, that wasn't an established indy guy beforehand

It's a bit mad how he has some of the best moves going with Deep 6 and End of Days, yet I can't name a good match of his, he's another guy buried by the formulaic nature of main roster matches

TimesArrow · 24-04-2019 3:07am

CastorTroy wrote: »

Controversial opinion: I like Baron Corbin.

He’s a heel who gets genuine heel heat.. not a great wrestler but the fans hate him and he’s doing a good job if it

sky88 · 24-04-2019 9:45am

SureYWouldntYa wrote: »

I think WWE love him because he's a proper homegrown talent who was fully trained in the NXT system

He's probably the most successful one when it comes to NXT, that wasn't an established indy guy beforehand

It's a bit mad how he has some of the best moves going with Deep 6 and End of Days, yet I can't name a good match of his, he's another guy buried by the formulaic nature of main roster matches

Charlotte for sure would be the top homegrown talent but im not sure she may have had some training with ric

and then braun after charlotte much better character and wrestler than corbin

SureYWouldntYa · 24-04-2019 1:01pm

sky88 wrote: »

Charlotte for sure would be the top homegrown talent but im not sure she may have had some training with ric

and then braun after charlotte much better character and wrestler than corbin

In terms of just wrestling ability Charlotte is homegrown, but there’s an asterix beside her because of her surname at the same time

Forgot about Braun, they havent won much but both have failed to cash in their MITB so they have that in common

Necro · 24-04-2019 1:36pm

SureYWouldntYa wrote:

Forgot about Braun, they havent won much but both have failed to cash in their MITB so they have that in common

Genuinely forgot Corbin won MITB until you mentioned it there!

Corbin is just a whole pile of meh for me.

Meh on the mic
Meh in the ring

There's a lot better, there's a lot worse.
He gets boos, but I cant tell is it genuine hatred or just go away heat.

I will say at least he gets a reaction which is more than can be said for 90% of the roster (not on NXT) tbf.

TimesArrow · 24-04-2019 5:04pm

i dont know if anyone can shed some light on this for me. i occasionally watch some What Culture wrestling videos and they just released a video about their trip to Mania. In the footage there is what appears to be legitimate beef between the lads and the Bullet Club/ Haku. they've talked about it before on the videos and im just wondering is it a work or is it real? im genuinely not sure

brianblaze · 24-04-2019 7:03pm

TimesArrow wrote: »

i dont know if anyone can shed some light on this for me. i occasionally watch some What Culture wrestling videos and they just released a video about their trip to Mania. In the footage there is what appears to be legitimate beef between the lads and the Bullet Club/ Haku. they've talked about it before on the videos and im just wondering is it a work or is it real? im genuinely not sure

This story maybe?

TimesArrow · 25-04-2019 9:58pm

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/23/middleeast/saudi-executions-terror-intl/index.html

37 nationals killed in Saudi Arabia. The good news is Vince and the WWE will be back in town soon enough to "promote change" and positivity etc etc etc

Agent Coulson · 26-04-2019 4:22am

I'd consider Kofi as homegrown WWE.

leggo · 26-04-2019 11:38am

J. Marston wrote: »

I hate him and not in the "good" way. Recent Daniel Bryan against Kofi, for instance, I can think "God, what a bastard!" when I'm listening to him.

Corbin though is instant look at my phone heat. His look is garbage, terrible promo and crowds don't boo when he comes out. They groan. When he was the constable and in 6 or 7 segments every Raw, it's no surprise the show hit record low ratings. Just last night when you had him in two matches and in the main event, the ratings dropped again. He's awful.

Rant over....but it won't be my last on Corbin!

There's no 'good' or 'bad' way to hate someone, even in wrestling. 'X-Pac Heat' is one of the biggest fallacies in wrestling.

If you hate them in the "they're a good heel and I'm playing along" way...then you don't hate them. You're supporting them by giving them the desired response they're seeking.

If you feel angry when someone comes on screen, then that's their goal and they've done their job well. While you can get by on "I like this wrestler and they're a good heel so I'm going to boo", the goal is to tap into real emotion. Like in Game of Thrones, I HATED Joffrey and Ramsey. I was happy when they died viciously. They tapped into real emotions whenever they were on screen. While I can appreciate how great of a job was done by all involved to make that so, I didn't secretly enjoy them and 'play along', I wanted them dead every time they were on my TV so I'd never have to see them again. So if Corbin does the same for you, he's done a good job. By your account, he's done a better job on you of being a heel than Daniel Bryan.

gerrybbadd · 26-04-2019 11:51am

Didn't the X-Pac heat thing come about becuase he was universally hated whether he was heel or face?

Always like X-Pac myself, going back to the 123 Kid days

sky88 · 26-04-2019 11:56am

gerrybbadd wrote: »

Didn't the X-Pac heat thing come about becuase he was universally hated whether he was heel or face?

Always like X-Pac myself, going back to the 123 Kid days

never got the x-pac hate was always one of my favs.

great to see how hes turned his life around

seandotcomm · 26-04-2019 6:09pm

gerrybbadd wrote: »

Didn't the X-Pac heat thing come about becuase he was universally hated whether he was heel or face?

Always like X-Pac myself, going back to the 123 Kid days

I feckin loved X-Pac.

Once he turned heel with Triple H / Steph incarnation of DX in 2000 I dont think he was ever face in WWE after that. People went on about how he was the only WWE member to get booed in the Invasion angle, but sure he was against Kidman, the who was the definition of babyface....

He was super over as a face in '99, going against Shane 'O, HHH, teaming with Kane etc.

Watched an old interview with Balor / Devitt from 2014 where he mentions X-Pac was his favourite wrestler and the biggest inspiration in becoming a wrestler.

They need to change X-Pac heat to Corbin Heat, effective immediately

gerrybbadd · 26-04-2019 8:27pm

Daniel Bryan's eco belt replica is for sale now on wwe shop for an eye watering 392 euros

Pentecost · 26-04-2019 8:35pm

gerrybbadd wrote: »

Daniel Bryan's eco belt replica is for sale now on weekends shop for an eye watering 392 euros

I’d want it for more than a weekend at that price

leggo · 26-04-2019 8:44pm

gerrybbadd wrote: »

Didn't the X-Pac heat thing come about becuase he was universally hated whether he was heel or face?

Always like X-Pac myself, going back to the 123 Kid days

Now I watched him as a kid, my first memory of wrestling was him winning the tag titles (with Bob Holly IIRC?) as 1-2-3 Kid. He was one of my faves and I was irrationally invested in him and Kane as a tag-team. So I could have bias at play here but yeah, I remember him being hugely over as a face, then the “X-Pac sucks” was huge when he was a heel.

But the notion of X-Pac heat, at least how I’m speaking about it, relates to him being the first high profile name people spoke of like “I don’t hate him because he’s a heel...” etc.

I think, in future years, when we think back to Corbin as GM we’ll just see a heel who got really over. He certainly wasn’t responsible for bad ratings, the GM deal was a gimmick like, but I think he managed to capture some of the projection fans turned his way for a slow product and turn it into something he could work with.

gerrybbadd · 26-04-2019 9:57pm

Pentecost wrote: »

I’d want it for more than a weekend at that price

Feckin autocorrect!!!

Pentecost · 27-04-2019 12:28am

I was totally on board with 1-2-3 kid back in the day. I struggle to recall anything memorable from DX X-Pac to be honest. I was never a big DX fan though.

The White Wolf · 27-04-2019 12:34pm

Didn't the era of Constable Corbin tank the ratings on Raw? That's not good heat however way you slice it.

CastorTroy · 27-04-2019 1:02pm

I'm pretty sure he just happened to be constable when it happened. It's not like he wrote the shows

RollieFingers · 27-04-2019 1:15pm

Anyone watching the Crockett Cup tonight? Would like to see the team of Flip and Bandido win it, though it's more likely to be the Briscoes, Villain Enterprises or Crimson & Dane. Decent looking card overall, Aldis versus Marty for the NWA Championship should be good.

leggo · 27-04-2019 1:35pm

The White Wolf wrote: »

Didn't the era of Constable Corbin tank the ratings on Raw? That's not good heat however way you slice it.

If the ratings had gone up, would you have given Corbin the credit? Be honest.

J. Marston · 27-04-2019 1:39pm

When he was the constable he could be in 6 or 7 segments every show and then painfully boring matches with that. It's no coincidence.

The White Wolf · 27-04-2019 1:55pm

leggo wrote: »

If the ratings had gone up, would you have given Corbin the credit? Be honest.

If the show was built around on centre stage I'd give him all the credit in the world. The E always give their authority characters prominent roles so I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest people turned off because of him

leggo · 27-04-2019 3:12pm

Alright so if that’s the case then I’m sure, since you’re being objective and not just looking for stats that suit your preconceived notion, that you’ll happily point out the giant ratings boost that must’ve occurred when he was removed from that spot. You know, since what we’re going with now is that Baron Corbin is solely responsible for WWE’s ratings.

ERG89 · 27-04-2019 3:29pm

I don't think Corbin has solely damaged the ratings (abysmal lazy and stale booking you can blame for that) but I doubt one fan has ever watched Raw and thought -
"Baron Corbin is in the main event, I can't miss it! "

CastorTroy · 27-04-2019 4:18pm

To be honest, there aren't too many that would make the main event must see

leggo · 27-04-2019 5:04pm

ERG89 wrote: »

I don't think Corbin has solely damaged the ratings (abysmal lazy and stale booking you can blame for that) but I doubt one fan has ever watched Raw and thought -
"Baron Corbin is in the main event, I can't miss it! "

You can use that same stick to beat nearly everyone at some stage of their career, though. There was a stage when nobody was looking for The Ringmaster or Terra Ryzing or Mean Mark Callous in the main event. You’d have got laughed at once if you suggested American Dragon would be WWE Champion. You build someone up by putting them in new spots and seeing if it takes. He did the best he could with what he was given and he got way over whether people like that or not.

Tbh I think all of this is people getting worked and projecting their frustration on the product onto him. Like it literally was a storyline “Raw is bad because of you Baron!” (The idea being he was GM so made the matches, which he obviously didn’t) And now you literally get posts saying “Raw was bad then because of Baron!” And it’s only got him more over as a result. It’s kinda gas tbh. Between that and Kofi, WWE have sneakily gotten good at working the audience again.

ERG89 · 27-04-2019 5:24pm

leggo wrote:

You can use that same stick to beat nearly everyone at some stage of their career, though. There was a stage when nobody was looking for The Ringmaster or Terra Ryzing or Mean Mark Callous in the main event. Youâ€™d have got laughed at once if you suggested American Dragon would be WWE Champion. You build someone up by putting them in new spots and seeing if it takes. He did the best he could with what he was given and he got way over whether people like that or not.

When they were Corbin's age they were all talented enough to be World Champions tho.
It's not his fault he's being overpushed & hasn't the talent for his role but I'm not going to just ignore he doesn't have those skills. You can definetly see he's only ever wrestled in WWE, it's very telling

leggo · 27-04-2019 5:42pm

What? His age? When has that ever been a metric used in wrestling to define someone’s ability?! When DDP was Baron Corbin’s age, he was a bouncer!

Lads I’m sorry but there’s a severe amount of waffle being spouted in this discussion. Why can’t you just leave it at “I’m not a fan personally”?

RollieFingers · 27-04-2019 5:46pm

Corbin just makes me want to change the channel to get him off my screen, everything about him is bland.

Lithium93_ · 27-04-2019 5:49pm

RollieFingers wrote: »

Corbin just makes me want to change the channel to get him off my screen, everything about him is bland.

Watching him, it's like watching paint dry.

ERG89 · 27-04-2019 5:53pm

leggo wrote: »

What? His age? When has that ever been a metric used in wrestling to define someone’s ability?! When DDP was Baron Corbin’s age, he was a bouncer!

Lads I’m sorry but there’s a severe amount of waffle being spouted in this discussion. Why can’t you just leave it at “I’m not a fan personally”?

You brought up a bunch of wrestlers who people might have said would never amount to much. I looked at where they were when they were his age now.
Your great for the waffle yourself so don't be upset when other people see nothing in Baron Corbin.

J. Marston · 27-04-2019 6:01pm

He's up there for worst look too. Wrestling in a waistcoat, shirt and slacks, for goodness sake. Looks like a snooker player.

jaykhunter · 27-04-2019 10:41pm

J. Marston wrote: »

He's up there for worst look too. Wrestling in a waistcoat, shirt and slacks, for goodness sake. Looks like a snooker player.

Hey hey hey leave waistcoats out of this!

leggo · 28-04-2019 8:59am

It's a really weird tic that wrestling fans have that doesn't translate to other forms of entertainment: "If my favourites aren't champion, this is bad, and if someone gets used who I don't like, it's also bad." Like you don't see people moaning about how X and Y not being the main focus of Avengers Endgame ruined it all. With movies etc, people are generally fine saying "I didn't like this movie/character" and leaving it, but with wrestling fans have to prove it and use BS metrics, despite wrestling being one of the entertainment forms its fans understand least in this regard and being proven wrong time and again. Don't believe me? Everyone is MAD for John Cena and Roman Reigns these days, and both were accused of ruining wrestling at one stage too. When Triple H is in a suit, he's the saviour of wrestling, when he's in his underwear he's single-handedly destroying it.

And I don't want to be a dick either and point out the gaping flaws in the arguments. Like how nobody has come back to me with those amazing ratings Raw got after Corbin was removed as GM, that whole line of thinking just got dropped when everyone saw it didn't work. No, what matters now is the age of talent! He's not as successful as SCSA was at his age, so he's a flop! Nobody credible has ever used this as a metric to define talent or success, wrestling and particularly WWE is almost a different industry to when Austin came up (e.g. Austin had 4 years on top, Cena had 15 and counting, while Corbin has been on the main roster almost as long as Austin's entire run in the main event and is just getting started), but sure. It fits here as 'proof', despite what fitted yesterday as 'proof' being made totally redundant.

Just say you don't like something or someone. That's all you need to do. Nobody can argue with that and you don't look like a fool, what's not to like?!

The White Wolf · 28-04-2019 9:19am

Thanks for enlightening me leggo; didn't realise what a big oul mark I was being. As ever your knowledge of the game makes the place all the better.

leggo · 28-04-2019 9:38am

I feel like you’ve taken that very personally for no reason. At no stage did I think “This will show The White Wolf”, it’s just a look at the odd way wrestling fans relate to the thing they’re supposed to love with a live action example. You’re more than welcome to argue with me on the points instead of deflecting. Like this is the third time now I’m asking for those awesome, post-GM Corbin Raw ratings.

RollieFingers · 28-04-2019 11:00am

You see Corbin as a heel who got really over, others see him as bland and boring, hate his waistcoat attire and change the channel when he appears. You're the only one blabbering on about people projecting their frustration on the product onto him, severe amounts of waffle being talked and telling people what to do so they don't look like fools. Would you ever give over.

leggo · 28-04-2019 11:11am

Again, getting personal because you don’t have an argument. Just back up the claims that were made that he was responsible for the poor Raw ratings. I’ve been totally consistent saying “If you don’t like him, fine”. The reason we’re debating is that there were bad claims made. I can back up that he got over as a heel, just a look at this thread with people citing words that were literally said in the storyline is evidence of that. If they didn’t want you to think “Raw was in the tank because of YOU Baron, dislike this man”, they wouldn’t have had the McMahons and Seth Rollins say it on their scripted TV show. You’re saying it now, objective achieved, he got over.

And nobody can back those ratings claims up with facts, but you don’t want to back down, so now you’re attacking me. Relax. I’m not telling you you have to like him. I’m letting you have your opinion, let me have mine. But if you’re going to state bad facts, then expect to get pulled up when they’re full of crap. If people switched off while he was GM, there’d be a big bump upwards when he wasn’t. There wasn’t, so there’s zero evidence that people switched off because he was GM. That’s a bad argument, simple. /debate

RollieFingers · 28-04-2019 11:19am

leggo wrote: »

Again, getting personal because you don’t have an argument. Just back up the claims that were made that he was responsible for the poor Raw ratings. I’ve been totally consistent saying “If you don’t like him, fine”. The reason we’re debating is that there were bad claims made. I can back up that he got over as a heel, just a look at this thread with people citing words that were literally said in the storyline is evidence of that. If they didn’t want you to think “Raw was in the tank because of YOU Baron, dislike this man”, they wouldn’t have had the McMahons and Seth Rollins say it on their scripted TV show. You’re saying it now, objective achieved, he got over.

And nobody can back those ratings claims up with facts, but you don’t want to back down, so now you’re attacking me. Relax. I’m not telling you you have to like him. I’m letting you have your opinion, let me have mine. But if you’re going to state bad facts, then expect to get pulled up when they’re full of crap. If people switched off while he was GM, there’d be a big bump upwards when he wasn’t. There wasn’t, so there’s zero evidence that people switched off because he was GM. That’s a bad argument, simple. /debate

Who's getting personal? You said all that stuff about others comments. I made no claims about ratings so can't help you there, I just said he makes me want to change the channel when I see him. You said everyone is mad about Cena and Reigns these days? Can you back those claims up with facts? Because I'm not a fan of either.

nazmoalex · 28-04-2019 1:00pm

Baron Corbin is useless, he fell on his arse trying to cash in the money in the bank. I suppose he did that on purpose too to get heat. Trolololol!
He was getting a huge push as a heel and they stopped it dead in it's tracks.
He's been trust back into that same spot, but if he was over as a heel by now, he'd be working higher up the card without a doubt.
Sure anybody that's stuck in a fued with him gets pulled down if anything, not elevated.
He's rubbish.

leggo · 28-04-2019 1:40pm

RollieFingers wrote: »

Who's getting personal? You said all that stuff about others comments. I made no claims about ratings so can't help you there, I just said he makes me want to change the channel when I see him. You said everyone is mad about Cena and Reigns these days? Can you back those claims up with facts? Because I'm not a fan of either.

Well then why are you arguing with me? If your point is “I just don’t like him”, then arguing with someone who says “If you don’t like him, that’s fine” is a bit random no? Like it comes across as if you just want to argue with someone about Baron Corbin if you’re picking a fight with someone who’s not opposing your viewpoint?

My stance in this, again, is: I think he’s got over well as a heel, X-Pac heat is a fallacy, it’s fine if you don’t like wrestlers but contentious when you claim they’re ‘bad’ for the product, and it’s crap to hold Corbin responsible for bad ratings. I haven’t had to move an inch from that initial stance. Whereas nobody has been able to prove he’s had an effect on ratings, that they haven’t been worked by the storyline, and arguments against him have conveniently moved away from ratings and now onto his age, which is the important factor now for some reason.

Cena and Reigns get huge, unanimous cheers now. There were people crying when Reigns announced he was in remission from leukaemia. Cena got a massive reaction at Mania. I mean, fascinating that you feel differently, cool story bro, but every single wrestler (or public figure) on the planet has people who like and dislike them. The consensus on Cena and Reigns would swing against that view now when it would’ve been more in line with how you felt once. Which just shows consensus among wrestling fans counts for little in grading someone’s skill because it can change overnight completely unrelated to anything they do in the ring.

nazmoalex wrote: »

Baron Corbin is useless, he fell on his arse trying to cash in the money in the bank. I suppose he did that on purpose too to get heat. Trolololol!
He was getting a huge push as a heel and they stopped it dead in it's tracks.
He's been trust back into that same spot, but if he was over as a heel by now, he'd be working higher up the card without a doubt.
Sure anybody that's stuck in a fued with him gets pulled down if anything, not elevated.
He's rubbish.

But I can literally make the exact same argument about the pushes of Kevin Owens, Sami Zayn and Finn Balor. They’ve yo-yo’d up and down the card, just like Corbin.

If I did, you’d likely say something about the inability of Vince McMahon to push good talent. But his judgement is spot on when it suits your view, is it?

This is what I’m saying lads: your arguments flip-flop to suit whatever you want to think, and that’s when they start to look like crap. Just say you like or dislike someone. That’s fine. Don’t be so insecure with your views and need to have them validated by saying “Other people feel the same!” (when they’re supposed to dislike the heel) or “They’re bad for the product” (when there’s no evidence of such). Just dislike them and move on with your life.

RollieFingers · 28-04-2019 2:08pm

You said "everyone is MAD for John Cena and Roman Reigns these days", which clearly isn't true. Not arguing with anyone just talking wrestling on a forum, you said there's a severe amount of waffle being spouted and you just demonstrated it.

nazmoalex · 28-04-2019 3:56pm

Leggo, you can't keep projecting what you assume others think in the middle of reply and not expect to be ridiculed for it.
In nearly every instance you do that, it annoys me.
But not as much as Baron Corbin.
He's vanilla to me and unless he has a turnaround of ungodly proportions that's not going to change.
Now why can't you just accept that for what it is and move on, as you put it yourself.

leggo · 28-04-2019 9:43pm

nazmoalex wrote: »

Leggo, you can't keep projecting what you assume others think in the middle of reply and not expect to be ridiculed for it.
In nearly every instance you do that, it annoys me.
But not as much as Baron Corbin.
He's vanilla to me and unless he has a turnaround of ungodly proportions that's not going to change.
Now why can't you just accept that for what it is and move on, as you put it yourself.

Apologies. I'll ask you directly...

So you think Vince McMahon's usage over the years of Kevin Owens, Sami Zayn and Finn Balor is spot on then and his judgement is to be trusted absolutely? Since you value it so highly as 'proof' that Baron Corbin is a bad wrestler?

I'm just looking for a shred of consistency within any of these arguments and you guys keep ducking when asked to back up what you're saying. So there's a direct question.

nazmoalex · 28-04-2019 10:53pm

leggo wrote: »

Apologies. I'll ask you directly...

So you think Vince McMahon's usage over the years of Kevin Owens, Sami Zayn and Finn Balor is spot on then and his judgement is to be trusted absolutely? Since you value it so highly as 'proof' that Baron Corbin is a bad wrestler?

I'm just looking for a shred of consistency within any of these arguments and you guys keep ducking when asked to back up what you're saying. So there's a direct question.

Ok, I appreciate that. I suppose I would say I don't really know what to say about Vince's judgement on how he books people. I do think he has booked Corbin to position him as a top heel, and to their credit he gets booed.
As a fan who generally preferes heels, he does nothing for me.
That's pretty much it.
And for the record, I haven't been watching Raw or Smackdown as much lately, so basing my opinion on what I have seen from him up to Mania.
If you have a different opinion, that's cool, if everyone liked the same people life would be boring.

And sorry for being snotty, but I felt it necessary to point it out.

Peace out

gerrybbadd · 29-04-2019 11:11am

Caught the Viceland Killing of Brody episode last night.

Amazing stuff. Felt real bad for Tony Atlas. Man, Carlos Colon is a real piece of shít. Never mind Invader 1. How he got away with it, i'll never know.

And these days, he's advertising himself on Facebook for children's parties. His banner on FB is a picture of Brody with the text "I didn't Kill Brody"

Random Wrestling Thoughts (Part 2)

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