Predicted Grades Appeals

RealJohn · 17-09-2020 1:15pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Michael can't be blamed for this one. This one is squarely at FG's door. Their actions set this in motion! FF have been a disaster but this is one they can't be blamed for.

FG put the wheels in motion, but FF are the ones who look like they were running it when the grades were finalised, having come through the process, and any changes that happened once Joe McHugh stepped aside will be blamed on FF, rightly or wrongly.
FG have the luxury of being able to say that their model would have avoided all of the problems, no matter how untrue that might be.

PhilOssophy · 17-09-2020 2:26pm

RealJohn wrote: »

FG put the wheels in motion, but FF are the ones who look like they were running it when the grades were finalised, having come through the process, and any changes that happened once Joe McHugh stepped aside will be blamed on FF, rightly or wrongly.
FG have the luxury of being able to say that their model would have avoided all of the problems, no matter how untrue that might be.

They were absolutely mad for taking that portfolio over in my view. MM must have been absolutely desperate to get into the big gig if he didn't see this landmine.

rainbowtrout · 17-09-2020 3:00pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

They were absolutely mad for taking that portfolio over in my view. MM must have been absolutely desperate to get into the big gig if he didn't see this landmine.

Yep, taking Health and Education was nuts from a political point of view. Any sane politician would have seen those as live grenades and stayed well away. Leo must be cracking himself laughing everyday watching how this plays out, because while it's a coalition, FG will largely come out of this unscathed.

shesty · 17-09-2020 3:02pm

It was FG that decided not to hold the exams.Actually I would go so far to say it was Joe McHugh under strong pressure from one or 2 lobby groups, that advised that decision.The very strong message that the exams would go ahead no matter what, doing a sudden about-turn over a weekend suggests to me that somebody (or somebodies) threw sudden strong weight behind the decision to not hold them, and that was the deciding factor.

Anything else simply arose from that decision.The only winners in all of it will be the lawyers.FF will simply be mopping up the mess.Not that I am sympathetic tbh, I don't think they need much assistance in messing up by themselves.

RealJohn · 17-09-2020 3:43pm

shesty wrote: »

It was FG that decided not to hold the exams.Actually I would go so far to say it was Joe McHugh under strong pressure from one or 2 lobby groups, that advised that decision.The very strong message that the exams would go ahead no matter what, doing a sudden about-turn over a weekend suggests to me that somebody (or somebodies) threw sudden strong weight behind the decision to not hold them, and that was the deciding factor.

Anything else simply arose from that decision.The only winners in all of it will be the lawyers.FF will simply be mopping up the mess.Not that I am sympathetic tbh, I don't think they need much assistance in messing up by themselves.

You’re not wrong, but FG will be seen as having done the right thing (even though it wasn’t) and FF will be seen as having messed it up (even though there was no way it wasn’t going to be a mess once the exams were cancelled).
I’m no fan of FG, as I’ve said before, but they’ve mopped the floor with FF for the last few months. The only reason they’re not going to bring down the government by mid-October is the fear of how many seats SF might get. If it was just themselves and FF, it’d be a landslide.

PhilOssophy · 17-09-2020 4:32pm

RealJohn wrote: »

You’re not wrong, but FG will be seen as having done the right thing (even though it wasn’t) and FF will be seen as having messed it up (even though there was no way it wasn’t going to be a mess once the exams were cancelled).

I think this is the nail on the head. This is the only mess which FF is currently dealing with which I feel any sympathy for them on!

byronbay2 · 28-09-2020 12:00pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Very easy to say that, but even the exams being offered in November aren't what would have been offered originally, with the exception of a few subjects it's 100% exam. So no orals, no music performance, no practical project in construction or engineering, no project in history or geography, no drawing in art. Students signed up to the exams on the understanding that they would be assessed on that basis. Now they are told they are not. With some of those subjects offering up to 50% for the practical component, which would have been taken into account in the predicted grade by the teacher, it would be hard in a lot of cases to improve a grade in November on a 100% written exam for many subjects.

Any teachers out that could clarify how the ranking was done? If there were 3 honours Irish classes in a school was the ranking provided by the school completed by class or by year? So if there were 3 classes of 30, is your ranking out of 30 or 90?

km79 · 28-09-2020 12:01pm

byronbay2 wrote: »

Any teachers out that could clarify how the ranking was done? If there were 3 honours Irish classes in a school was the ranking provided by the school completed by class or by year? So if there were 3 classes of 30, is your ranking out of 30 or 90?

30
Each individual class even if you had more than one class per subject

spurious · 28-09-2020 2:27pm

So no 'cross moderation' as we used to call it. What a mess.

byronbay2 · 28-09-2020 2:49pm

spurious wrote: »

So no 'cross moderation' as we used to call it. What a mess.

I would love to know how this algorithm worked! My daughter did music outside of school so according to the guidelines was not part of the class ranking. She was awarded a H2 in the Leaving cert but was predicted a H1 (93%) by her teacher and the portal today says she was ranked 1. She got an A in music in the JC. What part of the algorithm pulled her down from a H1 to a H2?

She was downgraded in 5 subjects all by a grade. So she was predicted 4H1s and got 4 H2s.

Treppen · 28-09-2020 4:04pm

byronbay2 wrote: »

I would love to know how this algorithm worked! My daughter did music outside of school so according to the guidelines was not part of the class ranking. She was awarded a H2 in the Leaving cert but was predicted a H1 (93%) by her teacher and the portal today says she was ranked 1. She got an A in music in the JC. What part of the rankingalgorithm pulled her down from a H1 to a H2?

She was downgraded in 5 subjects all by a grade. So she was predicted 4H1s and got 4 H2s.

Nobody knows exactly.

If the department have to provide ranking because of GDPR, then they should provide their algorithm

Mardy Bum · 28-09-2020 7:24pm

spurious wrote: »

So no 'cross moderation' as we used to call it. What a mess.

There should have been undocumented cross moderation in the department meeting before results were submitted.

Smacruairi · 28-09-2020 7:47pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

There should have been undocumented cross moderation in the department meeting before results were submitted.

We were actually explicitly told to destroy any notes made at those meetings by the DES.

Mardy Bum · 28-09-2020 7:51pm

Smacruairi wrote: »

We were actually explicitly told to destroy any notes made at those meetings by the DES.

Yes. All I mean is that cross moderation took place.

km79 · 28-09-2020 8:09pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

There should have been undocumented cross moderation in the department meeting before results were submitted.

There was
But after all that class rankings were still done on an individual class basis
That’s what was asked .

rainbowtrout · 28-09-2020 9:12pm

byronbay2 wrote: »

I would love to know how this algorithm worked! My daughter did music outside of school so according to the guidelines was not part of the class ranking. She was awarded a H2 in the Leaving cert but was predicted a H1 (93%) by her teacher and the portal today says she was ranked 1. She got an A in music in the JC. What part of the algorithm pulled her down from a H1 to a H2?

She was downgraded in 5 subjects all by a grade. So she was predicted 4H1s and got 4 H2s.

Well she was ranked 1, because she would have been assigned a class of her own essentially. If she had been graded at 43, she would have been still ranked 1.

Leftwaffe · 28-09-2020 11:47pm

Some class groups may contain only 1/2 students who are sitting higher or ordinary. The class group itself is given a letter, for example ‘A’. Higher students in that class group will be A1, and ordinary students will be A2.

Both sets of students are ranked separately. So if only 1 higher student, no matter what result they get, they will be given a ranking of 1.

Millionaire only not · 30-09-2020 1:18pm

Saga goes on
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/errors-found-in-leaving-cert-calculated-grades-system-39575956.html

History Queen · 30-09-2020 1:33pm

Millionaire only not wrote: »

Saga goes on
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/errors-found-in-leaving-cert-calculated-grades-system-39575956.html

The ineptitude of the Department never ceases to amaze me. At least this error will benefit students

scrubs33 · 30-09-2020 1:35pm

Millionaire only not wrote: »

Saga goes on
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/errors-found-in-leaving-cert-calculated-grades-system-39575956.html

I’m shocked,shocked I tell you...:eek:

Spanish Eyes · 30-09-2020 1:38pm

If anyone knows, would a student have had to appeal to benefit from upgrades in this debacle, or will it apply to all students affected?

It will affect CAO that much I know, i.e. more places will be needed I think!

History Queen · 30-09-2020 1:41pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

If anyone knows, would a student have had to appeal to benefit from upgrades in this debacle, or will it apply to all students affected?

It will affect CAO that much I know, i.e. more places will be needed I think!

I would imagine it'd be applied across the board regardless of if a student appealed or not.

Odyssey 2005 · 30-09-2020 1:43pm

scrubs33 wrote: »

I’m shocked,shocked I tell you...:eek:

wirelessdude01 · 30-09-2020 1:54pm

Couldn't make this stuff up. Having said that they should have just listened to the teachers and went ahead with August dates, then this could have been avoided.

titan18 · 30-09-2020 2:04pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

If anyone knows, would a student have had to appeal to benefit from upgrades in this debacle, or will it apply to all students affected?

It will affect CAO that much I know, i.e. more places will be needed I think!

CAO part will be interesting. Some courses are straight up going to be stuck accommodating more people if they have to. Particularly if it's a large amount that get upgraded

touts · 30-09-2020 2:08pm

By the time this issue cycles through the high court three or four times it will end up back with the grades the teachers awarded.

Then the schools and teachers better lawyer up because the dept will wash their hands of it.

Treppen · 30-09-2020 2:10pm

Micheal Martin claiming a technical error.

Shur tis plain as day they took out school previous grades profile and replaced it with average subject grade and junior cert composite malarkey

Treppen · 30-09-2020 2:28pm

Joe's on fire.

It should be noted that there are many students who were robbed NOT from fee paying and grind schools. So that puts a kaibosh on that spin attempt.

wirelessdude01 · 30-09-2020 2:43pm

What if it come out in the wash that some grades are actually too high, is that a possibility?

cmssjone · 30-09-2020 2:50pm

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

It it come out in the wash that some grades are actually too high, is that a possibility?

There’s NO way they would be downgraded. The ineptitude of the DES is laughable at this stage.

Pursefan · 30-09-2020 2:56pm

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

It it come out in the wash that some grades are actually too high, is that a possibility?

It might also be the case that some were too low. My daughter had 92% average in LCVP over two years. Her portfolio was checked by two LCVP teachers, one of whom corrects with SEC and has a sideline business advising on portfolios. Always told by teacher she was top 2 in her class. Was given 78% and missed the distinction. Now facing PLC. I am a teacher who worked calculated grades as did my husband. A lot to come out yet about what happened to some of these kids.

shesty · 30-09-2020 3:16pm

Only winners in this mess are the lawyers...

Wombatman · 30-09-2020 3:43pm

https://twitter.com/christinafinn8/status/1311285646070341633

wirelessdude01 · 30-09-2020 3:46pm

Pursefan wrote: »

It might also be the case that some were too low. My daughter had 92% average in LCVP over two years. Her portfolio was checked by two LCVP teachers, one of whom corrects with SEC and has a sideline business advising on portfolios. Always told by teacher she was top 2 in her class. Was given 78% and missed the distinction. Now facing PLC. I am a teacher who worked calculated grades as did my husband. A lot to come out yet about what happened to some of these kids.

No doubt about that but I'd love to know if it inflated further some students.

cmssjone · 30-09-2020 4:34pm

6500 to be upgraded due to the mistake that the lowest 2 grades were taken into consideration instead of their highest. What I want to know is how many people would have received higher grades due to CPSE being counted as one of their highest grades when it shouldn’t have.

Treppen · 30-09-2020 5:00pm

cmssjone wrote: »

6500 to be upgraded due to the mistake that the lowest 2 grades were taken into consideration instead of their highest. What I want to know is how many people would have received higher grades due to CPSE being counted as one of their highest grades when it shouldn’t have.

Why shouldn't CSPE been counted?

Smacruairi · 30-09-2020 5:03pm

Treppen wrote: »

Why shouldn't CSPE been counted?

It's barely a subject, come on now.

RealJohn · 30-09-2020 5:04pm

CSPE is a very important subject to show the world how "progressive" we've become.

Pursefan · 30-09-2020 5:08pm

As 60% of the final CSPE result was project based, completed before the exam and often heavily supervised by class teachers, the results were often very good, especially in an academic school.

spurious · 30-09-2020 5:08pm

It was probably left out because it was a common level subject, as many more will be from now on.

Wombatman · 30-09-2020 5:09pm

cmssjone wrote: »

6500 to be upgraded due to the mistake that the lowest 2 grades were taken into consideration instead of their highest. What I want to know is how many people would have received higher grades due to CPSE being counted as one of their highest grades when it shouldn’t have.

Yup.

It was intended that the students’ aggregate class-level Junior Cycle results in Irish, English and Maths would be included in the data used by the national standardisation process, together with their best two other subjects. The error had the effect that the students’ results in Irish, English and Maths were put together with their weakest two other subjects in the standardisation process.

The effect of this error has been that, in some subjects, some candidates received grades that were lower than they should have been and some received grades that were higher.

Polymetrika discovered the error and informed the department. They have since corrected the piece of code.

The Department of Education and Skills found the second error while performing checks related to rectifying the first error. This error was contained in the same section of the code programmed by the department’s external contractor Polymetrika.

The second error, which also related to the way in which candidates’ Junior Cycle results were included in the national standardisation process, was that the results of the Junior Cycle subject Civic, Social and Political Education (CSPE) were included in the data being used by the model.

It was intended that the students’ aggregate class-level Junior Cycle results in Irish, English and Maths would be included in the data used by the national standardisation process, together with their best two other subjects. The error had the effect that the students’ results in Irish, English and Maths were put together with their weakest two other subjects in the standardisation process.

The effect of this error has been that, in some subjects, some candidates received grades that were lower than they should have been and some received grades that were higher.

Polymetrika discovered the error and informed the department. They have since corrected the piece of code.

The Department of Education and Skills found the second error while performing checks related to rectifying the first error. This error was contained in the same section of the code programmed by the department’s external contractor Polymetrika.

The second error, which also related to the way in which candidates’ Junior Cycle results were included in the national standardisation process, was that the results of the Junior Cycle subject Civic, Social and Political Education (CSPE) were included in the data being used by the model.

Treppen · 30-09-2020 5:14pm

Smacruairi wrote: »

It's barely a subject, come on now.

I know there are a couple of teachers who take it very seriously. (A couple being 2).

It would have been kind of ironic for all those students who laughed at the teacher years ago saying it was a joke subject, and all the clever clogs who didn't bother expending precious time on it.

You can see why a few of the 'weaker students' who got the easy A will have been pleasantly surprised, 3 years later.

I seem to remember that it was Pat King of the ASTI who fought hard to keep it. So yes, blame the unions.

Wombatman · 30-09-2020 5:52pm

"one line (of code) out of 50,000 lines had a mistake in it."

So most of the application was correct.......yeah. What a wonderful way to evaluate software quality.

Works every time, 70% of the time.

TheValeyard · 30-09-2020 6:08pm

Utter Farce.

Smacruairi · 30-09-2020 7:05pm

Ironically, teachers predicted to 100% certainty pretty much every twist and turn in this case so far.

No transparency in the system, a rowing back on the privacy afforded to teachers and schools, delays, pandering to public figures' demands, and then court cases from unhappy students and parents.

The last prediction was to affect the student teacher relationship, and though it is not obvious yet, Ill bet Xmas and summer tests will be scrutinised to a much bigger degree.

Treppen · 30-09-2020 7:54pm

Smacruairi wrote: »

Ironically, teachers predicted to 100% certainty pretty much every twist and turn in this case so far.

No transparency in the system, a rowing back on the privacy afforded to teachers and schools, delays, pandering to public figures' demands, and then court cases from unhappy students and parents.

The last prediction was to affect the student teacher relationship, and though it is not obvious yet, Ill bet Xmas and summer tests will be scrutinised to a much bigger degree.

In some ways it's restored trust in teachers.

maynooth_rules · 30-09-2020 9:21pm

this is a horrible situation, but at least now those outside of teaching can see the shambles that is the Department of Education. We are having to endure their haphazard mess of a Junior Cycle reform. They made an absolute dogs dinner of that, they were unfortunately always going to make a mess of this in some way. So cruel on the class of 2020.

Treppen · 30-09-2020 10:32pm

I want to know how the JC composite grade interacted with the LC grades.

The Dept has said that only one of their Subjects will warrant an upgrade (with a few getting more than one subject upgrade).

What exactly caused students to have more than one of their subjects to be downgraded in the first place?

Chiparus · 01-10-2020 5:44am

Treppen wrote: »

I want to know how the JC composite grade interacted with the LC grades.

The Dept has said that only one of their Subjects will warrant an upgrade (with a few getting more than one subject upgrade).

What exactly caused students to have more than one of their subjects to be downgraded in the first place?

The Bell curve?

Treppen · 01-10-2020 8:12am

Chiparus wrote: »

The Bell curve?

Which bell curve? There's loads of em.

Predicted Grades Appeals

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