Tenants overstaying their notice indefinitely. Want my house back to sell.

Cat_M · 16-02-2019 1:11am #1

Any advice here please. I gave my tenants due notice - 9 months informally and then 6 formally as per statutory requirements as I need to sell. They were due to move out next week and I had services booked up to get place painted, cleaned, skip ordered etc. Not to mention time booked off work for both my husband and I in order to get house ready for market ASAP. I got a call 2 days ago from tenants to inform me that they'd paid deposit on a new build, it's 6-8 weeks away from being ready and basically, sorry about that. No such thing as asking to stay on for a few weeks. Of course I am a total soft touch, accidental landlord, who never put up their rent despite it being hundreds below the market rent as rents were way lower from they moved in. I had planned to inspect the property at the weekend in order to scope out what needs doing so as to be ready for the following week and am keeping that appointment. They say they've nowhere to go in the meantime and as they could not get a rental, decided to explore buying. But I didn't know any of this and thought they were leaving. I even reminded them of the arrangement dates of 1. Inspection and 2. Date for return of keys etc a few weeks ago so it was all crystal clear. So now i feel like I have no control over getting my keys back as they will day they have nowhere to go. What should I do? I need a definite date as I don't want to waste any time from them vacating property to getting it ready for sale for obvious reasons. I'm not living near it and don't want it unoccupied for any real length of time etc I had my date to work with and now it's all up the air. Their lease expired at the start of the month.

amcalester · 16-02-2019 1:16am

Check the RTB site and follow their process, stick to it to the letter even if the overholding tenants tell you they’ll be gone in a few weeks.

If they are, then you’re only delayed a few weeks. If they don’t then you’ve started the process to evict.

The tenant should also be paying rent during the overholding.

airy fairy · 16-02-2019 1:24am

amcalester wrote: »

Check the RTB site and follow their process, stick to it to the letter even if the overholding tenants tell you they’ll be gone in a few weeks.

If they are, then you’re only down a few weeks rent. If they don’t then you’ve started the process to evict.

Agree.
Start your process as early as possible, employ a solicitor so you are doing everything correctly, even the advice from the rtb can be hazy and I've found them to give incorrect information on several occasions.
From now on, do everything by letter or preferably text now, save all conversations.
Inspect your property as much as you can to keep an eye, give correct notice to do same.
Do not accept any more rental payments as this can be seen by the courts that you were willing to extend the rental contract.
I really hope they will be gone soon, but will advise you to prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

Cat_M · 16-02-2019 1:37am

airy fairy wrote: »

Agree.
Start your process as early as possible, employ a solicitor so you are doing everything correctly, even the advice from the rtb can be hazy and I've found them to give incorrect information on several occasions.
From now on, do everything by letter or preferably text now, save all conversations.
Inspect your property as much as you can to keep an eye, give correct notice to do same.
Do not accept any more rental payments as this can be seen by the courts that you were willing to extend the rental contract.
I really hope they will be gone soon, but will advise you to prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

I thought at the very least they need to pay rent! Why should they be able to stay on for free??!

rightmove · 16-02-2019 2:20am

Op very similar to me. I was ready to go the prtb route knowing they would never pay another penny but just to get them out.

Ironically when my ll asked me to leave it was all informal and I couldn't find anywhere to rent so i bought instead. One of the parties decided to delay signing and i needed another 2 weeks on addition to 3 months notice but since we had a decent relationship it was all good.

My tenant had 15 months notice (reissued due to statutory declaration not included) and still clearing out their stuff.

Do unto others as you expect them to do unto you must only exist in the bible tbh

road_high · 16-02-2019 2:36am

6-8 weeks? A likely story I’d say!

GGTrek · 16-02-2019 4:00am

OP around 3 business days before expiry of termination notice open RTB dispute for overholding (adjudication, don't bother with mediation it is useless). Provide tenants phone number and email. RTB will call the tenants within a week and they will understand that you are dead serious.

If you had out of pocket expenses due to overholding, put evidence in the submission and ask the RTB adjudicator to award them to you against the tenant. This will focus the mind of the overholding tenant to get out. You are lucky in just one fact: your tenants have money to loose since they pay their own rent. They are liable for rent until the day they hand over the keys so abdolutely do not let them off the hook for rent and ask adjudicator to state it either in the agreement or else in the determination order.

This is Ireland and overholding has become the norm and incentivated by the lax legislation enforcement.

I hope your termination notice was prepared and served correctly. If you do not know how to raise a dispute and prepare a submission I would strongly suggest hiring a tenancy law solicitor (you cannot charge the legal fees to ypur tenants at the RTB). You can PM many of the posters in this thread and they will be able to suggest one.

Good luck

Ultimate Seduction · 16-02-2019 4:07am

I'm amazed at the amount of landlords on boards.is renting for 100s below the market average.

airy fairy · 16-02-2019 7:48am

Cat_M wrote: »

I thought at the very least they need to pay rent! Why should they be able to stay on for free??!

Unfortunately, tenants seem to think that once you decide you want to sell your house, they can have free accommodation until they are evicted.
In a roundabout fashion, Threshold give advice to tenants as to how long the eviction process is, and to stay put in the property.
The rtb work extremely slow, especially in urban areas. It can take months for a hearing, and then a tenant doesn't turn up it goes on longer. At no time is the tenant made accountable.
It took me almost to year to get my tenant out.
Almost a year of unpaid rent, missed hearings and eventually court, employing a barrister at the end.
House left in an awful state, as i wasn't allowed into the property.
And in all that time, I was told by rtb that even though the tenant was overholding, paying no rent, he had all his tenant rights intact.
€15k owing and almost a year to get him out.

16-02-2019 8:00am

in that case airy fairy the OP should at least receive rent otherwise why would the tenant ever leave,if you did otherwise that was foolish and given you lost a significant amount of money shows it likely incentivised your tenants to overhold. OP seek legal advice, it sounds like thus could be genuine but in the meantime you are still entitled to rent especially if it's below market rate, if you use a notice to quit legally and correctly that does not entitle the tenant to not pay nor does it suggest you don't want them to leave, just that you are being paid until they do, just the same as when they rented under both parties agreement. don't bring up, suggest or even hint at a reduction or payment to get them out, if they are genuinely delayed or just genuine and decent they won't suggest it. If they do brush it off and remind them they were well under market rate and that you couldn't afford the mortgage if that was the case, hence why never divulge real details to a tenant (anything like you have no mortgage or anything relate to costs).krep your discussions with them civil, dont give them a reason or excuse to back away from being on speaking terms, be careful not to change how you deal with them, so don't start getting ratty or not picking over details you didn't pass comment on or notice before, as you've been renting you'll likely have to do a refresh anyway for sale and you could likely write that cost off, if the tenants did say they would overhold or were advised to, let them know you'd pursue it even if you wouldn't, ask them if they'd like someone to do that to thier new home and to them, remind them that whoever gave them that advice wouldn't be the one who'd be brought to court and had a judgement against them, don't ever bring it up first as you may offend them if they hadn't considered it or you might give them ideas, such are the vagaries of navigating the rental market for tenants and landlords by a system foisted upon both sides by a reckless careless and unconcerned state and other bodies, i suggest perhaps reading Sun Tzu.

handlemaster · 16-02-2019 8:03am

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

I'm amazed at the amount of landlords on boards.is renting for 100s below the market average.

They shouldn't do it. Always get the max rent. They would never get any thanks for charging below market value/ or not up ing the max each year

airy fairy · 16-02-2019 8:16am

1874 wrote: »

in that case airy fairy the OP should at least receive rent otherwise why would the tenant ever leave,if you did otherwise that was foolish and given you lost a significant amount of money shows it likely incentivised your tenants to overhold. OP seek legal advice, it sounds like thus could be genuine but in the meantime you are still entitled to rent especially if it's below market rate, if you use a notice to quit legally and correctly that does not entitle the tenant to not pay nor does it suggest you don't want them to leave, just that you are being paid until they do, just the same as when they rented under both parties agreement.

My ex tenant refused to pay rent the minute I correctly notified him that I was selling up.
But he still received his rental allowance from the state, and did not pass it on to me.

I was told that legally, after the notice to vacate date has expired, if the LL continues to take rental from the tenant while waiting the process of the rtb, the LL is in effect, carrying on the rental agreement by taking rent.

I'd be surprised that the tenant in this case will be gone on 6 to 8 weeks, I'd be further surprised that rent will continue to be paid while the LL starts a case with rtb to evict.

16-02-2019 8:28am

no offence but that seems like very bad advice and I don't know how it would suggest you want them to stay or that it confers any new tenancy as you have given notice to quit, there is nothing to suggest an overholder cannot pay and in fact I'm sure I've read examples here where it was a further reason to evict, tenants would be in breach of a lease if not paying end of story, unless you consented to it which would be foolish and a dangerous precedent to start, you should have pursued that tenant and got a line or judgement on their income or assets, even if only a fiver a month, i would do my best to destroy someone that tried to make off with an agreed amount without consent. I in factors threaten to make a judgement against a former tenant in the end if they did not leave, i lists few thousand I knew I'd never recover but I in the end I told them I'd write it off if they left promptly otherwise I'd take legal action, even if it never meant I'd get a penny, i informed them they'd probably have difficulty getting any loans or credit for the rest of their life, they left asap. All the while I was civil with them but OP don't go nuclear (ie angry) but do go formal, initiate the legal process of eviction but just tell them that's to stay formal and legal for both parties, that way the ball is rolling, you could even tell them how happy you are for the tenants ie be civil and cordial.

drunkmonkey · 16-02-2019 8:34am

Take the excuse away, find them a rental. Surely someone on air b and b would rent them for 2mts or you know someone with a vacant house.

bigpink · 16-02-2019 8:39am

Just suddenly found a house to buy and be in it in 6 to 8 weeks??

airy fairy · 16-02-2019 8:40am

I'm.just telling what my experience was.
From the very start of my process I did everything that was requested and legally above board.
Easy to say you can persue an ex tenant for anything that's owed when the tenant owes thousands in utility bills, has summons for road traffic offences in the post, and has put everything in his wife's name. Oh yeah, my lovely tenant stopped paying bin charges the day he was given notice. Almost 12 months of nappies, rubbish etc left behind in rooms in the house. A beautiful 4 bed house, turned to a dump.
I am trying to persue him, a year on from getting him out, but as the judge said to me on the day of the last court case, sorry, but I don't think you'll see a cent from him.
It's been exhausting.
And if I can get a euro per week for years, I will, it's the principal. But no shows in court, absconding, other debtors, while he's on social, I'll have a long wait!

airy fairy · 16-02-2019 8:43am

bigpink wrote: »

Just suddenly found a house to buy and be in it in 6 to 8 weeks??

I hope it is true... but....

Cat_M · 16-02-2019 9:20am

airy fairy wrote: »

I hope it is true... but....

I checked out the details and rang estate agent and apparently the house is waiting on snagging so it does sound like it will be that timeframe ISH. I told the estate agent my situation and she said he'd paid the deposit a while back and that he should have told me.

So it's it that he suddenly bought, just didn't tell me. I wondered about asking for near market rent for the overstaying that might incentvise him to get into new home asap. Estate agent said plenty of people are putting pressure on to get their keys cos of rental agreements etc.

What do you think? He knows I have not put up the rent so he's been saving a fortune and so was able to gather his deposit. Meanwhile I need to sell to get my deposit to buy. I'm an accidental landlord. This is my only property but I had to move for family reasons, couldn't sell due to negative equity but now can and want to buy here now where we are planning to settle. It's really annoying that everything is on hold as we have been literally counting the weeks to get house back and sell. Especially in the current economic climate.

pwurple · 16-02-2019 9:28am

I would hold tough.

How can you increase the rent without a new lease or agreement? That would invalidate your notice period. You would need to have that penalty built into the contract from the start of their tenancy.

They should have told you, it does indeed suck. But, at least they are paying the rent, and 6 weeks is another month and a half. They are motivated to leave if they have another house, they will want to pay their mortgage, not rent anymore.

They also have possession of a very expensive asset you own... and they can make your life very difficult indeed if you start acting the maggot when they are also under stress. They can do far more damage than a deposit will cover, overhold, get utilities disconnected etc etc.

Cool the jets, and ask to be kept informed on progress on a weekly basis so you can plan.

amcalester · 16-02-2019 9:45am

The RTB site says the tenant should continue to pay rent while overholding, and acceptance of same by the landlord is recognition of an on-going tenancy.

tretorn · 16-02-2019 10:39am

I served notice on tenants about two weeks ago and I havent heard anything from them since.

Would it be a good idea to make contact with them to ask what their plans are.

16-02-2019 12:44pm

amcalester wrote: »

The RTB site says the tenant should continue to pay rent while overholding, and acceptance of same by the landlord is recognition of an on-going tenancy.

Its an ongoing tenancy as long as the tenant is there regardless of any end of tenancy that was initially agreed, or any notice to quit, the landlord doesnt really have any say in that, that doesnt negate the fact that legal/legitimte notice to quit has been issued and it doesnt mean a new tenancy (new 4/6 years) has started based on the fact the state has offloaded responsibility for housing in the main onto private landlords, this seems to be for both social housing and everyone else looking to rent.
I know councils still have their own properties and housing associations, but I dont think the numbers are what they were.

The_Conductor · 16-02-2019 1:05pm

In the OP's case- as they have confirmed that the tenant *is* buying the property- the deposit was paid some time back- and they're simply waiting on a final snagging- the best bet is simply to try to tie them down to dates. In the intervening period of time- in the interests of good will- I'd suggest the tenant facilitate an inspection by the landlord- as they genuinely want to sell. Its a game of give and take- both sides need to be flexible on this- the tenant obviously isn't interested in moving between now and moving into their new home- in in both their interests that they help each other out on this one.

OP- I'd bite my tongue- I don't think there is any need to go formal- I think you should see about both you and the tenant being flexible with one another.

I'd also desperately try to get a better idea of actual time frames from the tenant- cognisant of the fact that move-in dates are movable feasts. However- the tenant isn't going to want to pay rent- and a mortgage simultaneously- so its in their interests to push this too.........

Talk to one another- both sides have a mutual interest in the tenancy not being prolonged?

rightmove · 16-02-2019 2:13pm

airy fairy wrote: »

My ex tenant refused to pay rent the minute I correctly notified him that I was selling up.
But he still received his rental allowance from the state, and did not pass it on to me.

Same here. This country is a banana republic

road_high · 16-02-2019 3:29pm

rightmove wrote: »

Same here. This country is a banana republic

It’s a total welfare state as well

badboyblast · 16-02-2019 9:26pm

What a joke of a country, what would happen if you went down and pulled someone out of a house and changed the locks ?

The_Conductor · 16-02-2019 9:28pm

badboyblast wrote: »

What a joke of a country, what would happen if you went down and pulled someone out of a house and changed the locks ?

You'd certainly receive a large fine- and depending on whether you used force to pull them out of the house- you could very possibly receive a lengthy sentence for common assault.

marieholmfan · 16-02-2019 9:32pm

rightmove wrote: »

Same here. This country is a banana republic

You should get out of the game. You've fierce bad luck.

4ensic15 · 16-02-2019 10:06pm

rightmove wrote: »

Do unto others as you expect them to do unto you must only exist in the bible tbh

Do unto others as they would do unto you.

rightmove · 16-02-2019 11:23pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

Do unto others as they would do unto you.

Exactly. Anything for the op???

TheChizler · 17-02-2019 12:08am

Have you told them you can't manage the extra duration and you have people lined up to come in? I might be picking it up wrong but it sounds like they rang up and when you didn't resist they thought you were OK with it. They might be reasonable and leave if you put your foot down. Maybe not but worth a try.

Anthonylfc · 17-02-2019 12:09am

Friend of mine had same issue

He moved back in ( with them still there ) had his mates over alot to make noise etc so they woulr fook off and they did

Subutai · 17-02-2019 12:42am

Anthonylfc wrote: »

Friend of mine had same issue

He moved back in ( with them still there ) had his mates over alot to make noise etc so they woulr fook off and they did

If they won't leave what makes you think they'd allow OP to move in?

Wheres Me Jumper? · 17-02-2019 12:44am

i have a quick and effective solution to this problem, tried & tested.

Graham · 17-02-2019 12:46am

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

i have a quick and effective solution to this problem, tried & tested.

Mods have a similar tried and tested solution for posters that suggest anything illegal.

Just saying

Wheres Me Jumper? · 17-02-2019 12:51am

Graham wrote: »

Mods have a similar tried and tested solution for posters that suggest anything illegal.

Just saying

you'll never get me suggesting anything illegal.
i'm just not that kind of guy.

tretorn · 17-02-2019 12:06pm

Just in case I need them can some PM me the name of good Solicitors familiar with Tenancy Law, ie someone who has successfully got overholding tenants out quickly.

airy fairy · 17-02-2019 12:39pm

tretorn wrote: »

Just in case I need them can some PM me the name of good Solicitors familiar with Tenancy Law, ie someone who has successfully got overholding tenants out quickly.

Unfortunately it's more the speed of the process than the solicitor. It's actually very straightforward but so many second chances for the tenant, and waiting times etc it takes time and patience. But waiting for hearings from rtb and then by the time all the proper channels are exhausted, a court appearance takes more time for a date as the courts are swamped with these cases.
I moved very quickly, as in a very attentive solicitor, still took almost the year.

beauf · 17-02-2019 1:04pm

I'd love to know however it can be done quickly.

tretorn · 17-02-2019 1:11pm

There are probably solicitors who specialise in these matters and maybe someone could point me in the right direction from personal experience.

The_Conductor · 17-02-2019 1:11pm

tretorn wrote: »

Just in case I need them can some PM me the name of good Solicitors familiar with Tenancy Law, ie someone who has successfully got overholding tenants out quickly.

Honestly- it doesn't matter how good the solicitor is- tenancy law is setup to protect tenants, period. It has few supports for landlords- and those that it does have- are easily frustratable by any tenant who doesn't like them.

Landlords are assumed- by virtue that the own the property- 1) to automatically be in the wrong unless proven otherwise and 2) to have an asset that can be dissipiatated to rectify any wrong (by either the tenant or landlord). Aka- you're damned under Irish tenancy law- it doesn't matter whether you're in the right or the wrong- it matters what suits the tenant- you have no power over them. If a tenant decides they don't want to leave- after you serve valid notice on them- it can take you up to 2 years to get vacant possession of the property- regardless of whether they are paying rent or not- and even if tribunals find in your favour and make financial awards to you- good luck enforcing them.

Tenancy law supports tenants- not landlords- and the process in which tenancy law is applied- is slow, cumbersome, and antagonistic towards landlords. Once you accept this- and go with the process- your life and stress levels will be a lot lower. Try to fight the system- and regardless of whether you're in the right or the wrong- as a landlord- you are in for a life of high stress, financial and psychological cost.

The system, legal and regulatory- and the manner in which it is applied- is why so many landlords are leaving the sector- despite the historically high rental income. Its simply becoming more and more impossible by the day to operate in the sector.

Give the tenants valid statutory notice- make sure you follow the letter of the law, don't take any short cuts. Try to be as reasonable as possible with the tenants- and hope and pray they will be as reasonable as possible with you. If they decide to frustrate the process- the system will facilitate them- not you. Communication and trying to keep on their good side- is key.

As the tenant *is* buying a new property- and is at final snagging stage- while nothing is set in stone- its a reasonable assumption that they will be ready to move into their own property in 8-12 weeks (presuming nothing unusual happens). Communication is key- without pestering them- and despite the tenant's obligation to give you commensurate notice of their intention to end the tenancy- there will be absolutely no action taken if they don't- whereas if you screw up your notice- you'll be hung out to dry.

Be nice, if necessary through gritted teeth. Don't bother with some all singing and all dancing solicitor- you'll only be spending money for no ends whatsoever- it doesn't matter how brilliant the solicitor is- its not going to make one iota of difference to how quickly you get your house back.

Sit back, relax- and chill. Your tenant holds all the cards. No point in getting stressed- be pleasant and talk to them to get a clearer picture and dates for their plans- and accede to whatever their wishes are- as a tenant- they hold the cards, not you.

McCrack · 17-02-2019 7:04pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Honestly- it doesn't matter how good the solicitor is- tenancy law is setup to protect tenants, period. It has few supports for landlords- and those that it does have- are easily frustratable by any tenant who doesn't like them.

Landlords are assumed- by virtue that the own the property- 1) to automatically be in the wrong unless proven otherwise and 2) to have an asset that can be dissipiatated to rectify any wrong (by either the tenant or landlord). Aka- you're damned under Irish tenancy law- it doesn't matter whether you're in the right or the wrong- it matters what suits the tenant- you have no power over them. If a tenant decides they don't want to leave- after you serve valid notice on them- it can take you up to 2 years to get vacant possession of the property- regardless of whether they are paying rent or not- and even if tribunals find in your favour and make financial awards to you- good luck enforcing them.

Tenancy law supports tenants- not landlords- and the process in which tenancy law is applied- is slow, cumbersome, and antagonistic towards landlords. Once you accept this- and go with the process- your life and stress levels will be a lot lower. Try to fight the system- and regardless of whether you're in the right or the wrong- as a landlord- you are in for a life of high stress, financial and psychological cost.

The system, legal and regulatory- and the manner in which it is applied- is why so many landlords are leaving the sector- despite the historically high rental income. Its simply becoming more and more impossible by the day to operate in the sector.

Give the tenants valid statutory notice- make sure you follow the letter of the law, don't take any short cuts. Try to be as reasonable as possible with the tenants- and hope and pray they will be as reasonable as possible with you. If they decide to frustrate the process- the system will facilitate them- not you. Communication and trying to keep on their good side- is key.

As the tenant *is* buying a new property- and is at final snagging stage- while nothing is set in stone- its a reasonable assumption that they will be ready to move into their own property in 8-12 weeks (presuming nothing unusual happens). Communication is key- without pestering them- and despite the tenant's obligation to give you commensurate notice of their intention to end the tenancy- there will be absolutely no action taken if they don't- whereas if you screw up your notice- you'll be hung out to dry.

Be nice, if necessary through gritted teeth. Don't bother with some all singing and all dancing solicitor- you'll only be spending money for no ends whatsoever- it doesn't matter how brilliant the solicitor is- its not going to make one iota of difference to how quickly you get your house back.

Sit back, relax- and chill. Your tenant holds all the cards. No point in getting stressed- be pleasant and talk to them to get a clearer picture and dates for their plans- and accede to whatever their wishes are- as a tenant- they hold the cards, not you.

It does matter that the solicitor has experience in applications for overholding before the RTB and enforcement proceedings which can now be taken in the District Court

It's a technical area and one error can reset the whole clock which can add up to 8 months to the process if the tenant is a long term tenant

So yes get a solicitor with experience in this

4ensic15 · 17-02-2019 7:39pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Honestly- it doesn't matter how good the solicitor is- tenancy law is setup to protect tenants, period. It has few supports for landlords- and those that it does have- are easily frustratable by any tenant who doesn't like them.

.

It matters a lot that a competent lawyer is engaged. A friend of mine had a delinquent tenant. No rent paid, damage caused, ignoring a determination order. He contacted a barrister who is a specialist in RTB matters. He was in court in 2 weeks and had the tenant gone in another 4 weeks. The barrister was telling the judge what to do! Anyone else would have had the case going on for months.

rightmove · 17-02-2019 8:21pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

It matters a lot that a competent lawyer is engaged. A friend of mine had a delinquent tenant. No rent paid, damage caused, ignoring a determination order. He contacted a barrister who is a specialist in RTB matters. He was in court in 2 weeks and had the tenant gone in another 4 weeks. The barrister was telling the judge what to do! Anyone else would have had the case going on for months.

So another expense for the ll. In farming it's known as milking. Tbh I was going to represent myself as my BIL had prtb matter as lawyered up but the prtb hearing the legal eagle was not even allowed to contribute. Waste of money he said. Now his case could be the exception

4ensic15 · 17-02-2019 8:24pm

rightmove wrote: »

So another expense for the ll. In farming it's known as milking. Tbh I was going to represent myself as my BIL had prtb matter as lawyered up but the prtb hearing the legal eagle was not even allowed to contribute. Waste of money he said. Now his case could be the exception

How can a lawyer not be allowed to contribute?

rightmove · 17-02-2019 8:36pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

How can a lawyer not be allowed to contribute?

He had his agent and a solicitor. Sounded like a kangaroo court by sounds of what he told me.

Subutai · 17-02-2019 8:42pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

How can a lawyer not be allowed to contribute?

Most likely answer is that he wasn't listed as a representative in time and the other side objected to him being included in proceedings at a late stage.

Second most likely answer is that much of what was at question were matters of fact, which the adjudicator sought to ascertain from the parties to the case rather than a third party. Lawyers are no use if there isn't a point of law to be made. If I'm saying that I served X notice on Y date and that you owe me Z rent since then, and the other side says that you didn't serve any notice and they owe no rent, then there isn't necessarily any need for a lawyer, just for the adjudicator to determine who is telling the truth based on the evidence.

The_Conductor · 17-02-2019 8:45pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

How can a lawyer not be allowed to contribute?

It depends on who you get on your panel- in several recent cases landlords have not been permitted to have a solicitor represent them- I honestly have no idea how or why- however, this is the situation several people have found themselves in. Its almost laughable how stacked against them some landlords now find the system to be.

4ensic15 · 17-02-2019 8:54pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

It depends on who you get on your panel- in several recent cases landlords have not been permitted to have a solicitor represent them- I honestly have no idea how or why- however, this is the situation several people have found themselves in. Its almost laughable how stacked against them some landlords now find the system to be.

If a landlord is not permitted to have a solicitor represent them, it is a breach of natural justice.

The_Conductor · 17-02-2019 9:06pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

If a landlord is not permitted to have a solicitor represent them, it is a breach of natural justice.

I hear you.
I'd love to hear that people are challenging the composition of panels and how they conduct their business- however, thus far- it has not, to the best of my knowledge, happened. Wait until they try to pull this on one of the new larger landlords- and sparks will fly. The small scale landlords with 1-2 properties are easy pickings (which is yet another reason why so many of them are getting the hell out of the sector). Natural justice doesn't enter the equation here- other than as a theoretical nicety.

McCrack · 17-02-2019 9:09pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

It depends on who you get on your panel- in several recent cases landlords have not been permitted to have a solicitor represent them- I honestly have no idea how or why- however, this is the situation several people have found themselves in. Its almost laughable how stacked against them some landlords now find the system to be.

That is not correct

If a landlord or tenant has instructed a solicitor at an Rtb adjudication that solicitor will be presenting their side and answering\clarifying anything the adjudicator may ask and in the absence of their client if they choose not to be present

Tenants overstaying their notice indefinitely. Want my house back to sell.

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