Tenants overstaying their notice indefinitely. Want my house back to sell.

Anthonylfc

Friend of mine had same issue

He moved back in ( with them still there ) had his mates over alot to make noise etc so they woulr fook off and they did

Subutai

Anthonylfc wrote: »

Friend of mine had same issue

He moved back in ( with them still there ) had his mates over alot to make noise etc so they woulr fook off and they did

If they won't leave what makes you think they'd allow OP to move in?

Wheres Me Jumper?

i have a quick and effective solution to this problem, tried & tested.

Graham

Wheres Me Jumper? wrote: »

i have a quick and effective solution to this problem, tried & tested.

Mods have a similar tried and tested solution for posters that suggest anything illegal.

Just saying

Wheres Me Jumper?

Graham wrote: »

Mods have a similar tried and tested solution for posters that suggest anything illegal.

Just saying

you'll never get me suggesting anything illegal.
i'm just not that kind of guy.

tretorn

Just in case I need them can some PM me the name of good Solicitors familiar with Tenancy Law, ie someone who has successfully got overholding tenants out quickly.

airy fairy

tretorn wrote: »

Just in case I need them can some PM me the name of good Solicitors familiar with Tenancy Law, ie someone who has successfully got overholding tenants out quickly.

Unfortunately it's more the speed of the process than the solicitor. It's actually very straightforward but so many second chances for the tenant, and waiting times etc it takes time and patience. But waiting for hearings from rtb and then by the time all the proper channels are exhausted, a court appearance takes more time for a date as the courts are swamped with these cases.
I moved very quickly, as in a very attentive solicitor, still took almost the year.

beauf

I'd love to know however it can be done quickly.

tretorn

There are probably solicitors who specialise in these matters and maybe someone could point me in the right direction from personal experience.

The_Conductor

tretorn wrote: »

Just in case I need them can some PM me the name of good Solicitors familiar with Tenancy Law, ie someone who has successfully got overholding tenants out quickly.

Honestly- it doesn't matter how good the solicitor is- tenancy law is setup to protect tenants, period. It has few supports for landlords- and those that it does have- are easily frustratable by any tenant who doesn't like them.

Landlords are assumed- by virtue that the own the property- 1) to automatically be in the wrong unless proven otherwise and 2) to have an asset that can be dissipiatated to rectify any wrong (by either the tenant or landlord). Aka- you're damned under Irish tenancy law- it doesn't matter whether you're in the right or the wrong- it matters what suits the tenant- you have no power over them. If a tenant decides they don't want to leave- after you serve valid notice on them- it can take you up to 2 years to get vacant possession of the property- regardless of whether they are paying rent or not- and even if tribunals find in your favour and make financial awards to you- good luck enforcing them.

Tenancy law supports tenants- not landlords- and the process in which tenancy law is applied- is slow, cumbersome, and antagonistic towards landlords. Once you accept this- and go with the process- your life and stress levels will be a lot lower. Try to fight the system- and regardless of whether you're in the right or the wrong- as a landlord- you are in for a life of high stress, financial and psychological cost.

The system, legal and regulatory- and the manner in which it is applied- is why so many landlords are leaving the sector- despite the historically high rental income. Its simply becoming more and more impossible by the day to operate in the sector.

Give the tenants valid statutory notice- make sure you follow the letter of the law, don't take any short cuts. Try to be as reasonable as possible with the tenants- and hope and pray they will be as reasonable as possible with you. If they decide to frustrate the process- the system will facilitate them- not you. Communication and trying to keep on their good side- is key.

As the tenant *is* buying a new property- and is at final snagging stage- while nothing is set in stone- its a reasonable assumption that they will be ready to move into their own property in 8-12 weeks (presuming nothing unusual happens). Communication is key- without pestering them- and despite the tenant's obligation to give you commensurate notice of their intention to end the tenancy- there will be absolutely no action taken if they don't- whereas if you screw up your notice- you'll be hung out to dry.

Be nice, if necessary through gritted teeth. Don't bother with some all singing and all dancing solicitor- you'll only be spending money for no ends whatsoever- it doesn't matter how brilliant the solicitor is- its not going to make one iota of difference to how quickly you get your house back.

Sit back, relax- and chill. Your tenant holds all the cards. No point in getting stressed- be pleasant and talk to them to get a clearer picture and dates for their plans- and accede to whatever their wishes are- as a tenant- they hold the cards, not you.

McCrack

The_Conductor wrote: »

Honestly- it doesn't matter how good the solicitor is- tenancy law is setup to protect tenants, period. It has few supports for landlords- and those that it does have- are easily frustratable by any tenant who doesn't like them.

Landlords are assumed- by virtue that the own the property- 1) to automatically be in the wrong unless proven otherwise and 2) to have an asset that can be dissipiatated to rectify any wrong (by either the tenant or landlord). Aka- you're damned under Irish tenancy law- it doesn't matter whether you're in the right or the wrong- it matters what suits the tenant- you have no power over them. If a tenant decides they don't want to leave- after you serve valid notice on them- it can take you up to 2 years to get vacant possession of the property- regardless of whether they are paying rent or not- and even if tribunals find in your favour and make financial awards to you- good luck enforcing them.

Tenancy law supports tenants- not landlords- and the process in which tenancy law is applied- is slow, cumbersome, and antagonistic towards landlords. Once you accept this- and go with the process- your life and stress levels will be a lot lower. Try to fight the system- and regardless of whether you're in the right or the wrong- as a landlord- you are in for a life of high stress, financial and psychological cost.

The system, legal and regulatory- and the manner in which it is applied- is why so many landlords are leaving the sector- despite the historically high rental income. Its simply becoming more and more impossible by the day to operate in the sector.

Give the tenants valid statutory notice- make sure you follow the letter of the law, don't take any short cuts. Try to be as reasonable as possible with the tenants- and hope and pray they will be as reasonable as possible with you. If they decide to frustrate the process- the system will facilitate them- not you. Communication and trying to keep on their good side- is key.

As the tenant *is* buying a new property- and is at final snagging stage- while nothing is set in stone- its a reasonable assumption that they will be ready to move into their own property in 8-12 weeks (presuming nothing unusual happens). Communication is key- without pestering them- and despite the tenant's obligation to give you commensurate notice of their intention to end the tenancy- there will be absolutely no action taken if they don't- whereas if you screw up your notice- you'll be hung out to dry.

Be nice, if necessary through gritted teeth. Don't bother with some all singing and all dancing solicitor- you'll only be spending money for no ends whatsoever- it doesn't matter how brilliant the solicitor is- its not going to make one iota of difference to how quickly you get your house back.

Sit back, relax- and chill. Your tenant holds all the cards. No point in getting stressed- be pleasant and talk to them to get a clearer picture and dates for their plans- and accede to whatever their wishes are- as a tenant- they hold the cards, not you.

It does matter that the solicitor has experience in applications for overholding before the RTB and enforcement proceedings which can now be taken in the District Court

It's a technical area and one error can reset the whole clock which can add up to 8 months to the process if the tenant is a long term tenant

So yes get a solicitor with experience in this

4ensic15

The_Conductor wrote: »

Honestly- it doesn't matter how good the solicitor is- tenancy law is setup to protect tenants, period. It has few supports for landlords- and those that it does have- are easily frustratable by any tenant who doesn't like them.

.

It matters a lot that a competent lawyer is engaged. A friend of mine had a delinquent tenant. No rent paid, damage caused, ignoring a determination order. He contacted a barrister who is a specialist in RTB matters. He was in court in 2 weeks and had the tenant gone in another 4 weeks. The barrister was telling the judge what to do! Anyone else would have had the case going on for months.

rightmove

4ensic15 wrote: »

It matters a lot that a competent lawyer is engaged. A friend of mine had a delinquent tenant. No rent paid, damage caused, ignoring a determination order. He contacted a barrister who is a specialist in RTB matters. He was in court in 2 weeks and had the tenant gone in another 4 weeks. The barrister was telling the judge what to do! Anyone else would have had the case going on for months.

So another expense for the ll. In farming it's known as milking. Tbh I was going to represent myself as my BIL had prtb matter as lawyered up but the prtb hearing the legal eagle was not even allowed to contribute. Waste of money he said. Now his case could be the exception

4ensic15

rightmove wrote: »

So another expense for the ll. In farming it's known as milking. Tbh I was going to represent myself as my BIL had prtb matter as lawyered up but the prtb hearing the legal eagle was not even allowed to contribute. Waste of money he said. Now his case could be the exception

How can a lawyer not be allowed to contribute?

rightmove

4ensic15 wrote: »

How can a lawyer not be allowed to contribute?

He had his agent and a solicitor. Sounded like a kangaroo court by sounds of what he told me.

Subutai

4ensic15 wrote: »

How can a lawyer not be allowed to contribute?

Most likely answer is that he wasn't listed as a representative in time and the other side objected to him being included in proceedings at a late stage.

Second most likely answer is that much of what was at question were matters of fact, which the adjudicator sought to ascertain from the parties to the case rather than a third party. Lawyers are no use if there isn't a point of law to be made. If I'm saying that I served X notice on Y date and that you owe me Z rent since then, and the other side says that you didn't serve any notice and they owe no rent, then there isn't necessarily any need for a lawyer, just for the adjudicator to determine who is telling the truth based on the evidence.

The_Conductor

4ensic15 wrote: »

How can a lawyer not be allowed to contribute?

It depends on who you get on your panel- in several recent cases landlords have not been permitted to have a solicitor represent them- I honestly have no idea how or why- however, this is the situation several people have found themselves in. Its almost laughable how stacked against them some landlords now find the system to be.

4ensic15

The_Conductor wrote: »

It depends on who you get on your panel- in several recent cases landlords have not been permitted to have a solicitor represent them- I honestly have no idea how or why- however, this is the situation several people have found themselves in. Its almost laughable how stacked against them some landlords now find the system to be.

If a landlord is not permitted to have a solicitor represent them, it is a breach of natural justice.

The_Conductor

4ensic15 wrote: »

If a landlord is not permitted to have a solicitor represent them, it is a breach of natural justice.

I hear you.
I'd love to hear that people are challenging the composition of panels and how they conduct their business- however, thus far- it has not, to the best of my knowledge, happened. Wait until they try to pull this on one of the new larger landlords- and sparks will fly. The small scale landlords with 1-2 properties are easy pickings (which is yet another reason why so many of them are getting the hell out of the sector). Natural justice doesn't enter the equation here- other than as a theoretical nicety.

McCrack

The_Conductor wrote: »

It depends on who you get on your panel- in several recent cases landlords have not been permitted to have a solicitor represent them- I honestly have no idea how or why- however, this is the situation several people have found themselves in. Its almost laughable how stacked against them some landlords now find the system to be.

That is not correct

If a landlord or tenant has instructed a solicitor at an Rtb adjudication that solicitor will be presenting their side and answering\clarifying anything the adjudicator may ask and in the absence of their client if they choose not to be present

The_Conductor

McCrack wrote: »

That is not correct

If a landlord or tenant has instructed a solicitor at an Rtb adjudication that solicitor will be presenting their side and answering\clarifying anything the adjudicator may ask and in the absence of their client if they choose not to be present

Thats the theory- you know that as well as I do.

Garibaldi?

If a landlord employs a solicitor to represent him/her. it constitutes an allowable tax expense

tvjunki

Rtb is the stage before court but it is court either way.
That is not right that you cannot have legal representation with you if you are landlord or tenant. What happens when tenant lawyers up with threshold or other representative and you there on your own? You will loose. If you went to ordinary court you would have a lawyer or barrister.
Once again attack small time landlords..

Garibaldi?

A relative of mine was dealing with an unreasonable tenant. He got a solicitor and got his house back because he wanted to live in it himself. The legal fee was tax allowable against the rental tax.

McCrack

The_Conductor wrote: »

Thats the theory- you know that as well as I do.

It's practice and I'm a solicitor who has dealt with the Rtb on many occasions

Anyone that is appearing before a quasi judicial board or tribunal such as an Rtb adjudication is entitled to have legal representation and that advocate is entitled to be heard

rightmove

tvjunki wrote: »

Rtb is the stage before court but it is court either way. .

But that to me is the point. It's like the bucked teeth one eyed version of court. Don't think by reading here that anyone has faith in its competence. Even for example before getting to it, tenants can appeal a notice but if its wrong the ll can be caught out 8 months later....So why bother having 28 days to appeal

Garibaldi?

Follow procedure to the letter. RTB and your own solicitor.It will work out.

4ensic15

The_Conductor wrote: »

I hear you.
I'd love to hear that people are challenging the composition of panels and how they conduct their business- however, thus far- it has not, to the best of my knowledge, happened. Wait until they try to pull this on one of the new larger landlords- and sparks will fly. The small scale landlords with 1-2 properties are easy pickings (which is yet another reason why so many of them are getting the hell out of the sector). Natural justice doesn't enter the equation here- other than as a theoretical nicety.

The only way to challenge is a judicial review. Small time landlords are unlikely to do this. I did hear of one challenge in the early days of the RTB. Some adjudicators are anti-landlord to an extreme.

Anthonylfc

Subutai wrote: »

If they won't leave what makes you think they'd allow OP to move in?

cause he owns the place

already given ample notice

so move back in have parties ,make it unbearable

1874

Anthonylfc wrote: »

cause he owns the place

already given ample notice

so move back in have parties ,make it unbearable

Yes and they'd be in a lot of trouble if that was done and reported, unless they were already only licencees.
Basically the tenants would find it easier and quicker to get a landlord out for that than they could get a tenant out for not going, they could end up having some very harsh financial penalties levied against them, while Im sympathetic to anyone in the scenraio of overholding tenants, the OP would be advised to pay heed to the post that said, go by the book and dont stress yourself, the ball is not in the landlords court (so to speak), the tenants sound like they have somewhere organised, play it cool, dont act or show weakness.