BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

Lord Glentoran · 24-07-2018 10:56am

L1011 wrote: »

NTA need to be getting on to all local press, even if they have to pay for the damn coverage, to counteract the generally inane and inaccurate statements by local politicians who don't understand the plan. My parents had picked up from somewhere - I suspect Catherine Murphy's witterings - that there would be no direct buses from Maynooth at all.

Liffey Champion a few weeks ago had a scare story on the front page from various local pols and a few pages inside an accurate summary of the changes from a different politician. Didn't bother doing any of its own journalistic work on it, just rehashed press releases and put the accurate one where it wasn't useful!

I wonder does the NTA know this? Perhaps someone here can give them a call.

jd · 24-07-2018 11:30am

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

I wonder does the NTA know this? Perhaps someone here can give them a call.

They corrected her at the Transport Committee about a week ago

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_transport_tourism_and_sport/2018-07-18/5/

Mr. Hugh Creegan
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They are peak time only going into the city centre, south docklands, UCD and other different combinations. They do not require a change of service. The C route which comes from Lucan and Cellbridge has direct services without needing to interchange.

The C3 and C4 route extends past Lucan. The C spine does not stop at Lucan and there is no need to change buses - the branches continue to wherever their termination point is. There was also a suggestion of a delay on C buses going through Chapelizod village. The C route bypasses Chapelizod village.

Qrt · 24-07-2018 12:27pm

Apparently there's an Independents4Change councillor calling for a "public meeting" to "save our bus services" in and around the Kimmage area. If anyone sees it could you provide more info please!

Also; Independents4Change? The irony!

dfx- · 24-07-2018 12:38pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

My belief is,that some of the responsible folk (and J Walker is NOT one) remain in Network Direct mode.

It is increasingly looking like this once you get away from the high frequency 'spines'.

High frequency for some, lost route/drop in frequency for others.

Qrt · 24-07-2018 5:30pm

dfx- wrote: »

It is increasingly looking like this once you get away from the high frequency 'spines'.

High frequency for some, lost route/drop in frequency for others.

While that may be true to some, there's no point having frequent bus services on your doorstep if they don't bring you anywhere useful. For example, my grandmother will be losing her direct bus, but she'll also have four extra routes (and destinations) within a five min walk.

LeinsterDub · 24-07-2018 5:40pm

dfx- wrote: »

It is increasingly looking like this once you get away from the high frequency 'spines'.

High frequency for some, lost route/drop in frequency for others.

What percentage do you think others represents? It's already been acknowledged in the report that some areas will be less serviced or connected. However the report suggests this is a tiny percentage.

devnull · 24-07-2018 6:27pm

dfx- wrote: »

It is increasingly looking like this once you get away from the high frequency 'spines'.

High frequency for some, lost route/drop in frequency for others.

So essentially there is high frequency where there is the most demand and passenger numbers, and lower frequency when there is less demand and passenger numbers?

KD345 · 24-07-2018 8:02pm

devnull wrote: »

So essentially there is high frequency where there is the most demand and passenger numbers, and lower frequency when there is less demand and passenger numbers?

All very well, except there are too many places where the proposed frequency does not meet demand. In the case of the 15, we are talking about removing a 4 minute frequency and replacing it with a 10 minute service. For areas such as Ballycullen, Woodstown, Scholarstown and Knocklyon, the new A1 will need to be at least every 5 minutes at peak to carry the numbers currently using the service.

The NTA themselves identified the 15 as a route in need of enhanced capacity, which make it all the more baffling why they think this decrease in service is acceptable.

devnull · 24-07-2018 8:26pm

Demand is generally measured on how many people need to get from one place to another and the provided and necessary capacity along that stretch of the route rather than how many people are boarding a bus at a particular area, because that doesn't tell you anything about where the demand is to/from.

If the buses that pass through these areas are busy, are they busy with people going through these areas or are they busy with people going to other areas that will be covered by the enhanced frequency that is catered for by the spines, which will then free up more room on the branches?

Just because a bus route that has every 5 minute frequency now is full at certain points in it's route, it doesn't mean that that areas is not vastly over-served if the majority of people using that bus route are boarding or alighting at stops which would be covered by the spines.

I could run every single bus from one suburb to another which could be full leaving the City Centre running every 5 minutes and leaving people behind but only being 20% full for the last 20 minutes of it's running time. Do you honestly believe that we should keep the frequency high on this low loading part to carry lots of fresh air rather than focusing on resources where people are being left behind?

Most of the routes that will have branches see most of their loadings come from the places that would be served by the spines anyway, so yes there will be a realigning of frequency to match supply and demand, but an outer suburb with a certain level of demand should not expect the same level as an inner suburb with a much higher demand, that'd be plain stupidity.

monument · 24-07-2018 8:43pm

Soundbites and Tweets like this show me Dermot O'Leary is really driver focused rather he user focused:

https://twitter.com/DermotLeary/status/1021455000453681152

https://twitter.com/DermotLeary/status/1021519393598177281

"Dublin commuters have their daily schedules planned from termini departures"

Do many people actually rely on this? If so, why was real time, even if not perfect, was so welcomed?

KD345 · 24-07-2018 8:49pm

Devnull, the 15 had its frequency increased because it was leaving passengers behind at stops. Every bus is full before Firhouse Road. If you cut it’s current peak frequency in half as this report suggests it will be a disaster.

Look at the map. The 49 is being replaced by the S6 and S7 in Firhouse. The plan is that passengers change from the S6/S7 to board the A1 on Firhouse Road to continue their journey to the city. A 10 minute frequency on this A1 will simply not work.

Take a trip on the 15 in September and see for yourself how busy the route is. Then imagine that service being reduced in frequency and having to cope with a connecting route joining it at Firhouse Road.

devnull · 24-07-2018 8:50pm

monument wrote: »

"Dublin commuters have their daily schedules planned from termini departures"

Do many people actually rely on this? If so, why was real time, even if not perfect, was so welcomed?

At the end of the day though he is a Trade Union leader, so it's his job to represent drivers and of course they will be his number one priority, no matter what he says publicly.

Listing departures from the time they leave a terminus that could be 10 to 15 kilometeres away, which someone may have no idea where it actually is or how long it takes to get to the stop they are standing at, is hugely user unfriendly and is the kind of thing you expect to see on rosters, not public timetables.

It is something that I've only seen in Ireland where you go to a bus stop and you only see the time that the bus leaves the first stop of a route that could be a huge distance away. It is absolutely useless for anyone who is not standing at a terminus or close to it and confuses many tourists.

devnull · 24-07-2018 8:52pm

KD345 wrote: »

Devnull, the 15 had its frequency increased because it was leaving passengers behind at stops. Every bus is full before Firhouse Road. If you cut it’s current frequency in half as this report suggests it will be a disaster.

The 15 is full between Firhouse Road and where in what direction?

Saying a bus is full at a certain point means absolutely nothing. since it doesn't take into account where those passengers are going to, where they are coming from and the direction of travel and you need to know all of that information to judge how much capacity is needed.

CatInABox · 24-07-2018 8:54pm

monument wrote: »

"Dublin commuters have their daily schedules planned from termini departures"

Do many people actually rely on this? If so, why was real time, even if not perfect, was so welcomed?

I've used the Dublin Bus time table as inspiration for my lottery numbers, but not much else. I'd go so far as to class them as fictional.

The various apps are the only way I use the buses now:

Open app, see bus is 15 minutes away, get to the bus stop five minutes before it's meant to be there, because even the app isn't super accurate.

Qrt · 24-07-2018 9:16pm

monument wrote: »

Soundbites and Tweets like this show me Dermot O'Leary is really driver focused rather he user focused:

https://twitter.com/DermotLeary/status/1021455000453681152

https://twitter.com/DermotLeary/status/1021519393598177281

"Dublin commuters have their daily schedules planned from termini departures"

Do many people actually rely on this? If so, why was real time, even if not perfect, was so welcomed?

I usually use the timetable when getting the 27, but I'm also the third stop on the route so it takes a minute or two max to get to the stop once it departs. I usually use rpti.ie to see if a bus is going to be cancelled.

KD345 · 24-07-2018 9:18pm

devnull wrote: »

The 15 is full between Firhouse Road and where in what direction?

Saying a bus is full at a certain point means absolutely nothing. since it doesn't take into account where those passengers are going to, where they are coming from and the direction of travel and you need to know all of that information to judge how much capacity is needed.

The 15 quickly fills up from it’s Ballycullen terminus inbound.

A bus being full in an area indicates there is a demand for the service. Would you not agree?
I assume the majority of passengers are coming from Ballycullen/Knocklyon and heading in the direction of the city centre. What alternatives do you see for passengers in Knocklyon?

devnull · 24-07-2018 9:33pm

KD345 wrote: »

The 15 quickly fills up from it’s Ballycullen terminus inbound.

A bus running from Ballycullen to the City Center being very busy is completely meaningless, because proper planning of capacity involves researching how many people are making journeys from one place to another, not how many people are using a bus overall.

A bus being full in an area indicates there is a demand for the service. Would you not agree?

A bus that goes through an area and is full doesn't necessarily mean that there is demand in the area for the bus, since it doesn't take into account how many people in the area are using the bus, it just takes into account the number of people who are using a bus that passes through there which is not the same.

Tomorrow I could divert any bus through any place that has zero demand and you're saying because the bus is full, despite the fact nobody is getting on, that is somehow justification that said place should have said service?

We shouldn't be judging demand on how full buses are in certain areas, we should be judging demand on how many passengers are taking journeys between certain places since it's a far more accurate way to do it and it allows you to focus capacity where it is needed the most and minimise carriage of fresh air.

Stephen15 · 24-07-2018 9:47pm

If I was an NBRU member working for DB I think I would rather they took on board actual present concerns of DB workers like pay and conditions rather than going on Twitter rants about issues which aren't concerns for workers yet. I think they need to wait until the actual rosters for drivers and timetables for the proposed are proposed by the NTA.

That's the time for trade unions to start getting involved in the process and not when a plan hasn't even gone through public consultation. If workers want to get involved in the public consultation they should be entitled to it on their own accord and a unions like SIPTU have broadly kept their mouths shut.

KD345 · 24-07-2018 10:09pm

devnull wrote: »

A bus running from Ballycullen to the City Center being very busy is completely meaningless, because proper planning of capacity involves researching how many people are making journeys from one place to another, not how many people are using a bus overall.

Can you provide a link to this research of the area? How many of the existing route 15 passengers will no longer be taking the 15/A1?

devnull wrote: »

A bus that goes through an area and is full doesn't necessarily mean that there is demand in the area for the bus, since it doesn't take into account how many people in the area are using the bus, it just takes into account the number of people who are using a bus that passes through there which is not the same.

Tomorrow I could divert any bus through any place that has zero demand and you're saying because the bus is full, despite the fact nobody is getting on, that is somehow justification that said place should have said service?

We shouldn't be judging demand on how full buses are in certain areas, we should be judging demand on how many passengers are taking journeys between certain places since it's a far more accurate way to do it and it allows you to focus capacity where it is needed the most and minimise carriage of fresh air.

Perhaps you’re missing my point, or maybe unfamiliar with the area, but the 15 is the only route through Knocklyon to the city centre. The only change to this is that the 15 will now be called the A1 and will run at a reduced frequency. It will also be required to carry additional city bound Firhouse passengers from existing route 49 who will change from new routes S6 and S7.

We can agree to disagree on whether there is sufficient capacity to cater for all this. I don’t believe there is, but accept you feel differently. Hopefully the consultations will help to address any concerns or provide extra buses to resolve issues.

dashcamdanny · 24-07-2018 10:15pm

Trade unions have every right to involved. Especially with bus connects. Excluding them is a mistake.
IMO Siptu probably can't be bothered as there is no money in for them. Or they were paid to keep out

Stephen15 · 24-07-2018 10:22pm

KD345 wrote: »

Perhaps you’re missing my point, or maybe unfamiliar with the area, but the 15 is the only route through Knocklyon to the city centre. The only change to this is that the 15 will now be called the A1 and will run at a reduced frequency. It will also be required to carry additional city bound Firhouse passengers from existing route 49 who will change from new routes S6 and S7.

We can agree to disagree on whether there is sufficient capacity to cater for all this. I don’t believe there is, but accept you feel differently. Hopefully the consultations will help to address any concerns or provide extra buses to resolve issues.

Firhouse commuters could also change in the Square to the Luas or the A1 route. Also they could use the new 16 radial route to College Green which is every 20 mins.

devnull · 24-07-2018 10:34pm

KD345 wrote: »

Can you provide a link to this research of the area?

You've made an overly simplistic point which seems to suggest that you judge the demand for an area based on how busy are the buses are going said area. But this does not measure demand for these areas because it doesn't take into account how many people on said buses are boarding or alighting at said areas.

To use an example of how useless this measure of demand is:
- I run a 100 passenger bus every 10 mins
- It operates between Town A and Town H calling at B, C, D, E, F, G.
- On average 35 People board at Town A, 20 at Town B, 20 at Town C
- On average 3 board at Town D at which the vast majority of people alight.
- The bus then only carries single figures between E and H

If we are using your theory, it would suggest that you think that because the bus is busy at A and B and the bus goes to G, then it means that people going to E. F, G deserve a service at the same level as A to D because there bus is busy, even if barely anyone is actually going to E, F and G.

A proper way of judging public transport demand and planning services is who wants to go from one place to another, not judging how many people are on buses that serve the bus stops on the route which barely anybody may alight or board at. This is supply and demand basics.

If everyone judged demand on the same basis of yourself, nobody would ever run non stop buses between Dublin and Cork and Dublin and Galway, because they'd say that the buses are full going through the little towns on the way so that must mean there is lot of demand, whilst ignoring the fact that 90% of the passengers are going from Dublin to Cork and Dublin to Galway and only 10% are coming from the towns.

n!ghtmancometh · 24-07-2018 10:40pm

The current 15 is full when it reaches Firhouse and remains full until nearing the city centre. Busconnects will change the number of the 15 and reduce it's frequency, whilst also loading in passengers who used to take route 49 into the city centre. You can obfuscate it with your Walker-esque spin all you like, but it's a massive reduction in service, and will be a disaster if the frequency of the new busconnects version of the 15 isn't drastically increased.

KD345 · 24-07-2018 10:42pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Firhouse commuters could also change in the Square to the Luas or the A1 route. Also they could use the new 16 radial route to College Green which is every 20 mins.

They could, however I don’t know of any extra capacity being added to the Red Line Luas, which is also expected to take bus loads of people from existing routes 13, 68 and 69. I also don’t think traveling from Firhouse to Tallaght to go to the city centre is an attractive option for many.

KD345 · 24-07-2018 11:04pm

devnull wrote: »

You've made an overly simplistic point which seems to suggest that you judge the demand for an area based on how busy are the buses are going to said area. But this does not measure demand for these areas because it doesn't take into account how many people on said buses are boarding or alighting at said areas.

A 15 fills up in Ballycullen Road and Knocklyon. It is full by Firhouse Road and then picks up and drops off passengers throughout Templeogue, Terenure, Rathmines and the city centre.

The demand here is pretty clear.

devnull wrote: »

To use an example of how useless this measure of demand is:
- I run a 100 passenger bus every 10 mins
- It operates between Town A and Town H calling at B, C, D, E, F, G.
- On average 35 People board at Town A, 20 at Town B, 20 at Town C
- On average 3 board at Town D at which the vast majority of people alight.
- The bus then only carries single figures between E and G.

If we are using your theory, it would suggest that you think that because the bus is busy at A and B and the bus goes to G, then it means that people going to E. F, G deserve a service at the same level as A to D because there bus is busy, even if barely anyone is actually going to E, F and G.

Under the Bus Connects plan, there won’t be enough space to carry passengers from “points A and B”, never mind having capacity further along the route. I actually haven’t mentioned the A spine beyond Templogue. We know the A spine increases in capacity from Terenure. My concern is solely with the capacity between Ballycullen Road and Templeogue.

devnull wrote: »

A bus running from Ballycullen to the City Center being very busy is completely meaningless, because proper planning of capacity involves researching how many people are making journeys from one place to another, not how many people are using a bus overall.

Can you provide a link to this research?

At present, Route 15 has capacity for approx 2,100 passengers between 6-9am. Under Bus Connects this will drop to approx 1,500.

What research are you saying is showing that there will be demand for 600 less passengers using the 15 each morning out of Ballycullen/Knocklyon?

Really, the simplest thing to do here is to increase the frequency of the A1 to match the current service of the 15.

BonnieSituation · 24-07-2018 11:33pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I'm not a civil engineer but I guess they build footpaths through the wooded area surrounding the bypass. Around the bridges on the Chapelizod Bypass you build access footpaths and steps. Another thing that would probably have to be built is pedestrian footbridge for ease of access to either side of the road from the bus stops. Steps may be required so wheelchair lifts may also be needed.

Anyway something will have to be done a city bus service cannot run for such a long distance without stopping if these proposals are to be implemented regarding the Chapelizod Bypass

Here is a few possible places where you could built access for stops

https://goo.gl/maps/H2EjAnx6bGk

https://goo.gl/maps/ccVMU2rgruR2

https://goo.gl/maps/sXZCQnoWV9k

https://goo.gl/maps/KCCBo6zMyRR2

As I said they will now have the S6/S7 every 15 mins aswell as the 225 every 15 mins all of which can get them to Dundrum so they can catch a Luas or hopefully in the future a Metro into town. The 10 will also have the same frequency off peak as the 11 does now however I do agree it should be more frequent at peak times.

Agreed but some changes will have to be made which benefit the many and not the few.

Stephen15 wrote: »

And the road planners who thought it would a good idea not to put any provision for bus stops or pedestrian access on the Chapelizod Bypass.

Why are we putting bus stops on the 80kmh Chapelizod bypass?

have you ever walked up Kylemore Hill or Chapelizod Hill Road?

To call your suggestions nonsense is doing a disservice to nonsense.

---

Regarding the reduction of services to Chapelizod; it is LONG overdue. The 66 and 67 routes are hamstrung by having to go through the village. As a 25A/B user Network Direct was a godsend as it avoided that bottleneck.

All that ever need to happen was to expand the frequency of the 26 ever so slightly from Cherry Orchard Hospital and that was that and send it down through the village via Palmerstown.

Stephen15 · 24-07-2018 11:57pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Why are we putting bus stops on the 80kmh Chapelizod bypass?

have you ever walked up Kylemore Hill or Chapelizod Hill Road?

To call your suggestions nonsense is doing a disservice to nonsense.

There are already bus stops on the N4 which is 80km and bus stops on the 80km section of the N11 South of Foxrock Church so I don't see what's wrong with putting bus stops on the Chapelizod Bypass as long as there was footbridges or underpasses.

What's wrong Chapelizod Hill Road or Kylemore Hill?

dfx- · 25-07-2018 12:39am

devnull wrote: »

So essentially there is high frequency where there is the most demand and passenger numbers, and lower frequency when there is less demand and passenger numbers?

So far this thread has identified Woodford (13), the 15, 25A and 25B and 11 and an area ably covered by the 66 and 67 with a massive drop in frequency at one point or another.

We're not talking about orbital routes or low demand areas which are covered better now than they will be.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Regarding the reduction of services to Chapelizod; it is LONG overdue. The 66 and 67 routes are hamstrung by having to go through the village. As a 25A/B user Network Direct was a godsend as it avoided that bottleneck.

All that ever need to happen was to expand the frequency of the 26 ever so slightly from Cherry Orchard Hospital and that was that and send it down through the village via Palmerstown.

We're talking of (from KD345) a scale of 100 buses reduction here, that's not reduction, that's decimation.

The 26 is fitted in the 66/67s I think, it might be awkward to increase it. Maybe the 25 is a better candidate.

Goldengirl · 25-07-2018 2:29am

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Cookie_Monster · 25-07-2018 3:43am

Goldengirl wrote: »

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An equally condescending comment tbh, I've found older people adapt surprisingly well to the internet & computer technology, far better than than the younger generation who are only used to smartphones and apps rather than proper computers.

Goldengirl wrote: »

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what old orbital routes? There were barely any.

The problem in this city is that very large housing estates were not planned to provide easy uncomplicated access to main roads and bus routes, with the result that if buses do not go into these complicated housing estate systems a lot of people are effectively being cut off from public transport and will have to revert to driving cars or be stranded in their estates. A shuttle service in and out of these areas should be set up

Name me some estates that require a car journey to get out of?

It would be great if while implementing these necessary changes to make things more "efficient" , elderly and disabled people's needs are also addressed.

You'd swear old people in Ireland are some special subsection of society who are completely incapable of doing anything by themselves they way you go on. Improved routes and increased frequencies (especially off peak) benefit the elderly just as much as everyone else, perhaps more so. All but the tiniest percentage can manage to travel to and from the nearest bustops, there is no point planning the entire bus system around the minuscule amount that might need a bustop 10 feet from their front door. Yes it would be nice but we don't have an infinite number of buses or funding and what we have has to be best used to deliver the best service for the majority of people.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and all that.

Goldengirl · 25-07-2018 4:49am

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Cookie_Monster · 25-07-2018 5:41am

Goldengirl wrote: »

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where to where and why would the 13+ change not do for example? more frequent than the 104 for a start...
not like the 104 even goes onto ballymun rd going that direction...

I would appreciate if you would not take my comments out of context again.

what context?, just ill-informed ranting.

How very nice of you! This is a public service we are talking about, paid for by the taxes of those "few" as you describe them,

what few?, most people pay taxes, not a few...

Where's the inclusivity in this plan?

more people than before have more access to more frequent routes, a small minority will end up with a worse service, how is that not increasing inclusivity? Stop just focusing on the tiny negatives, what about all the people gaining better routes, are they not important too?

What I said, if you can read ,is that the pdf maps regarding the 90 page submission by Mr.Walker et al were by and large impossible for many normal sighted individuals to read, despite magnification.

Might want to get your eyes checked then, they're not difficult to read with "normal" vision.

What we have...who are you that you can say how much money should be spent here or there? Maybe "we" should cut a few NTA jobs to raise the money?

Or add 5% to income tax, or cut funding to hospitals or something else... Fact is there is a limited budget and this proposal does its best to maximise resource use in the most efficient manner within that budget. If you have common sense ways and means to increase the budget somehow by all means share them with us, you cannot simply pour an endless supply of funding into NTA operations to give every single person a bus to everywhere they want to go.

_Kaiser_ · 25-07-2018 8:03am

The more I read of this, the more half-assed it sounds.

You have a plan with a few core routes that seem to be a good idea and improvement, but the rest involve transfers, more walking for passengers, or generally a more inconvenient experience than they have now.

It'll never happen. Not without so many changes and concessions that it'll be a mess again. People won't accept an inferior service FOR THEM. It makes no odds how it benefits others on the route 15km away. That's human nature and particularly in Ireland where all politics (and this is as much a political issue as a transport one) is ridiculously parochial. It seems to me that it's these local objections that will break it as it shouldn't have been released unless these concerns had been already addressed or a decision made to press on as has been outlined.

But by the time its all done, I fear this will be yet another expensive waste of time and money that at best might give us a few orbital routes, but that's about it.

LeinsterDub · 25-07-2018 8:16am

Goldengirl wrote: »

There speaks someone who never had an injury or an ailment! Public transport is for everyone and one of the most positive aspects of some of our more rambling bus routes is that they encourage people to get out and about even when they cannot walk very far.
It would be great if while implementing these necessary changes to make things more "efficient" , elderly and disabled people's needs are also addressed.

These elderly and disabled people seem to get on just fine in the main when they get to town

Podge_irl · 25-07-2018 8:26am

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It seems to me that it's these local objections that will break it as it shouldn't have been released unless these concerns had been already addressed or a decision made to press on as has been outlined.

Similar was said about the proposed Metrolink route.

Some people have an utterly bizarre notion of what a public consultation is for.

Podge_irl · 25-07-2018 8:27am

Goldengirl wrote: »

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If they can't walk out of their estate where are they going on the bus that they'll be able to do anything on the other end?

If they require literal point-to-point transport than public transport isn't for them.

Bray Head · 25-07-2018 8:34am

People want to keep the network structured around bus users with limited mobility and lots of time.

These people may be better served by a dial-a-bus service. I think there is a case for these even in urban areas.

Most Dublin Bus users are mobile and want to get where they are going asap. Bus Connects seems to be - finally - prioritising the needs of the many, not the few.

OldMrBrennan83 · 25-07-2018 8:38am

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Qrt · 25-07-2018 8:41am

Bray Head wrote: »

People want to keep the network structured around bus users with limited mobility and lots of time.

These people may be better served by a dial-a-bus service. I think there is a case for these even in urban areas.

Most Dublin Bus users are mobile and want to get where they are going asap. Bus Connects seems to be - finally - prioritising the needs of the many, not the few.

There really loads of TFL videos about their Dial-a-ride service. I know it's a colossal city, but it really does look superb.

MJohnston · 25-07-2018 8:45am

Goldengirl wrote: »

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I'm afraid I just don't buy into the sentiment you're expressing here. For decades we've formed the bus network almost solely around the needs of the elderly (not so much the disabled, they aren't as politically important to governments in terms of voting power).

We have a bus network now that is extremely biased towards providing a service for elderly people, at the expense of an efficient and rapid system. As you said yourself, it currently takes rambling, "scenic' routes in an effort to cover every street in each housing estate in the city.

BusConnects certainly does chip away at that in an effort to improve efficiency and quality, but isn't it time that we had a bit of compromise in this regard? We've spent so long hobbling Dublin Bus to make it an ultra-local service, and now that someone is trying to roll that back just a little bit and make it a service that is more efficient and capable of surviving the next decade, it's suddenly that the elderly and disabled are being completely neglected?

That's disingenuous, and doesn't take into account the current system whatsoever.

Dublin's bus network needs change if it is to not completely collapse in the next few years, it cannot survive in its current form. That is inarguable.

As to your point about shuttle and feeder buses? Yes, absolutely. I don't think this will or should be something run by Dublin Bus (or the post-BusConnects equivalent thereof) but I could certainly see it being a separate PSO thing that gets tendered out.

MJohnston · 25-07-2018 8:49am

Patww79 wrote: »

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It's not how everyone thinks. Some of us take a more utilitarian view of things.

OldMrBrennan83 · 25-07-2018 8:51am

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MJohnston · 25-07-2018 8:57am

Patww79 wrote: »

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Nobody has been forgotten by this plan, stop being irrational.

BonnieSituation · 25-07-2018 9:42am

Qrt wrote: »

There really loads of TFL videos about their Dial-a-ride service. I know it's a colossal city, but it really does look superb.

OC Transpo in Ottawa have a dial a ride service. As does Amsterdam and Copenhagen iirc. All fairly comparable to Dublin.

Bray Head · 25-07-2018 9:50am

One of the consequences of Bus Connects is that it will make the financial performance of routes much more distinct. Spine routes are likely to be profitbale, and orbital and other routes unprofitable.

I don't think this is something that Jarrett Walker intends for, or really cares about.

But it makes it much easier to carve off certain routes for private operators. Remember, Dublin Bus currently argues that the whole network has a PSO function, and that you cannot look at certain routes in isolation. Indeed, you could argue that this is the purpose of certain routes with heavy usage for 80% of the route and then a meandering tour through housing estates at the end.

This is probably behind a lot of the objection to Bus Connects so far.

Stephen15 · 25-07-2018 10:32am

goldengirl wrote:

Even less now! I am talking about feeder services through the estates, if you hadn't edited it out.

You do realise that almost every road including estates that have a bus service right now will still have a local bus service after the plan in most cases they will no longer go into the city centre like they do presently.

I don't understand the obsession with every area including estates having to have a direct bus service to the city centre when most elderly people don't even go into town but rather they make local trips to shop etc.

sharper · 25-07-2018 10:46am

Bray Head wrote: »

One of the consequences of Bus Connects is that it will make the financial performance of routes much more distinct. Spine routes are likely to be profitbale, and orbital and other routes unprofitable.

Private operators don't get the proceeds from the farebox if they operate a route. They're paid a fee to operate it and the fares go to the NTA. They neither know nor care if it's ulitmately profitable or loss making.

The LUAS is run by Transdev and they're paid by the NTA to run it. If nobody steps onto a LUAS for the next year Transdev's revenue will be entirely unaffected. The same is true for go ahead and the orbital routes.

BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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