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St. Kilians German school open letter to DoES
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What do you mean by individual knowledge/skill/ability/competence in a context where the actual exam has not taken place.Are you saying that actual knowledge/skill/ability/competence shouldn't matter then, if someone is coming from a position of advantage or disadvantage?
Again, you are either not getting or avoiding the point. Other are, at least, clear in what they mean and know school to be a proxy for.From a language and more importantly a statistical point of view it is about high performing schools and low performing schools and any standardisation should have taken that into account.
Does anyone seriously think the system could estimate the grades based on socio economic background?rainbowtrout wrote: »
And it’s for the following reason: socio economic background.
I don't either. Which is why it doesn't.0 -
Proficiency in Language and Grades in The Subject are two very different things. I got a B in higher French but speek only a petit pois comme le pigeon.
German grades in the school are way higher than the national average year on year... except for this year.
I've read before about the gripe but that's besides the point. Pick any specialist school and you'll have 'parents pulling their kids out' every year because they obviously have skin in the game with the specialist topic.
The students got shafted and I don't think anyone can deny that.
Are they? Is that information available?0 -
VillageIdiot71 wrote: »What do you mean by individual knowledge/skill/ability/competence in a context where the actual exam has not taken place.
Again, you are either not getting or avoiding the point. Other are, at least, clear in what they mean and know school to be a proxy for.
Does anyone seriously think the system could estimate the grades based on socio economic background?
I don't either. Which is why it doesn't.
I'm not asking it to.
Anyway you're just here to stir shit and create useless arguments.
/username checks out.0 -
Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »Out of interest, does anyone know what the results were for Lycee Francais (LFI) which is actually in the same building and classrooms as Kilians. I could be wrong but I think the LFI students actually sit the LC under the St. Kilians roll number because LFI is a fully private school.
If that is the case, then surely the French students would have the same issue with grades as the German students and unlike Kilians, the students in LFI speak French almost 100% of the time whereas in Kilians German is taught as a subject and everything else is in English?
If you've ever been on campus it's interesting to see because all the students are mixing in the same corridors but you can hear the French students speaking French among each other but Kilians all speak in English.
You are wrong. They sit the Baccalaureate.0 -
rainbowtrout wrote: »That’s where you’re wrong and have been harping on about this point all day. School results don’t change wildly from year to year because the cohort of students sitting the Leaving cert in that school don’t change wildly from year to year. That’s why the schools previous performance can be an indicator of how this years cohort are likely to perform as a whole.
And it’s for the following reason: socio economic background.
If you take the St Killian's case as an example, they would have a similar type of group going through every year. Students have German as a first language and are first or second generation German speakers. It’s a fee paying school so by and large students come from a relatively affluent background. The point was made earlier about the bus driver who scrimps and saves to send their kid to the fee paying school, but the overall factor here is that the parent is the driving force in wanting their child to avail of the best education possible. Many parents believe that is in a fee paying school.
As a result you end up with a cohort of students whose parents have literally invested in their education and want them to succeed. That feeds into their home background. Parents keep on top of them to make sure homework and projects are completed. They make sure they have all the resources necessary for school - from the essentials like pens and copies to the extras such as revise wise type revision books, Christmas and Easter revision courses and grinds.
The culture of the school therefore is one where students have a supportive home background and are expected to work and achieve and going to college is an automatic assumption, therefore you get competition between students.
Now go to your local community college, where it’s the only school in a town. It takes in everyone from all backgrounds. There are still the type of students described above but the effect is diluted as there are also middle of the road students and also students who have no support from home and are lucky to come to school in the morning as there is nobody at home who will drag them out of bed if they don’t do it themselves.
You get far more variable results from the few who are highly motivated and have all the supports and also the natural ability and get top marks to those who have no supports at home, no interest and struggle academically. Results will largely land on a typical curve here. I work in a school similar to this.
Then you have schools that are located in hugely disadvantaged areas - high unemployment, low educational attainment among parents, higher than average drop out rates, crime or anti social behaviour may also be factor. Students here generally do not achieve as well and schools/ teachers can only do so much.
Results for a year group are not going to change wildly for any of the above year on year because the background of your leaving cert cohort does not change wildly from year to year.
I totally agree with this post. Simply put a statistical model is mathematical way to approximate reality. The reality is that where you are schooled DOES affect a student’s grade. The omission of this variable is yet another fúck up in this whole sorry debacle.0 -
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That's pretty much exactly what you've asked for, and you've explained at length why you feel this should be done.rainbowtrout wrote: »I'm not asking it to.
A little more thought, and you'll appreciate why it can't be done.0 -
VillageIdiot71 wrote: »That's pretty much exactly what you've asked for, and you've explained at length why you feel this should be done.
A little more thought, and you'll appreciate why it can't be done.
Perhaps you should heed your own advice. With a little more thought, you’ll finally get that some schools produce better results than others. Or you can just keep ignoring the obvious.0 -
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Isn't that reality inherently unfair though? Should the department be applauded for attempting to correct it when given the chance?
It's not about 'the school' that the student attends, it's the cohort of students that attend that school. It might seem like a small distinction but a very significant one.0 -
You're either pretending to miss the point deliberately, or you're not equipped to have this discussion. Either way, there isn't much point in continuing this, but I'll give you another chance anyway.VillageIdiot71 wrote: »What do you mean by individual knowledge/skill/ability/competence in a context where the actual exam has not taken place.
Knowledge/skill/ability/competence does not depend on whether or not it's been examined. If the exam had taken place at any stage, from the day after the schools closed, to taking place on schedule in June, to being delayed until August, until when they (might) actually take place in October/November, students in certain schools, in general, would/will do better than students in other schools, in general. This is not because any school or student is getting preferential treatment from the SEC. It's because they have advantages (or disadvantages) which affect their actual performance in the exam.
The idea behind these invented grades was that they ought to be a realistic reflection of what the students would have got anyway. They're not supposed to be a reflection of what they might have got in your make-believe world where everyone is equal in opportunity and outcome (and I'm not sure why everyone doesn't get H1s in every subject in your odd little fantasy - sounds like you want students to do badly, if you don't think everyone should get H1s, regardless of ability). This model has failed students badly, because students who deserved better have been marked down, and many students who have over-"achieved" will find that they're back to the same disadvantages in third level that they had in second level, only they won't have invented grades to save them.
Your continued insistence that students who would have performed better in real exams than the algorithm allowed them to somehow deserve their punishment for having parents who sent them to fee-paying schools is very wrong, in every sense.0 -
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Exactly this.rainbowtrout wrote: »It's not about 'the school' that the student attends, it's the cohort of students that attend that school. It might seem like a small distinction but a very significant one.
You could swop out the entire student population of any fee-paying school for the entire student population of a similarly sized DEIS school in Tallaght or Ballymun, and leave everything else about the schools the same (teachers, resources, etc.) and the gap will narrow, but you'd be a fool to expect that the students whose parents sent them to the fee-paying school won't still outperform the DEIS school students, for all of the socio-economic reasons mentioned.0 -
You are wrong. They sit the Baccalaureate.
Some of LFI students also sit the LC and the ones that do AFAIK do so under the Kilian's roll number. I could be wrong and it's a few years since we were there but I still know some of the teachers and I don't think it's changed.
But the comment around the French v German speakers definitively hasn't changed. There is a marked difference btw the standard of French in LFI and the standard of German in Kilians/Eurocampus which is why it would be interesting to know how the students performed in French, was there the same mark down in that subject?
There is a misconception around Kilians being a German School. It is not like a Gaelscoil where everything is taught in Irish. Classes in Kilian's are all in English with the exception of some German classes but those German classes are reserved for the kids of native German speakers and a small amount of other children but the reality is that most kids get very soft touch German.0 -
Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »Are they? Is that information available?
Ya it's on their website . And the principal stated the grades.0 -
Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »Some of LFI students also sit the LC and the ones that do AFAIK do so under the Kilian's roll number. I could be wrong and it's a few years since we were there but I still know some of the teachers and I don't think it's changed.
But the comment around the French v German speakers definitively hasn't changed. There is a marked difference btw the standard of French in LFI and the standard of German in Kilians/Eurocampus which is why it would be interesting to know how the students performed in French, was there the same mark down in that subject?
There is a misconception around Kilians being a German School. It is not like a Gaelscoil where everything is taught in Irish. Classes in Kilian's are all in English with the exception of some German classes but those German classes are reserved for the kids of native German speakers and a small amount of other children but the reality is that most kids get very soft touch German.
You are sorely misinformed. I also know many of the teachers. The senior cycle of the LFI follows the French programme and as such is a fully French school. The exams they sit are all in French and follow the curriculum in France.. The LFI does not prepare any students for the leaving cert and if a student chooses to sit a leaving cert subject that is at their own discretion. This has happened a handful of times in the last decade.
You simply can not compare the French vs German speakers in the LFI and Kilian’s as the LFI is a French school abroad. St Kilian’s is an Irish school with a German affiliation and connection. Not all classes are taught through the medium of German, but every student must study German to some level. You don’t get extra points for completing the leaving cert in German so having classes in English too makes sense, no? Their previous results in LC HL German over the last few years would indicate the students’ proficiency in German would certainly be above the national average.0 -
You are sorely misinformed. I also know many of the teachers. The senior cycle of the LFI follows the French programme and as such is a fully French school. The exams they sit are all in French and follow the curriculum in France.. The LFI does not prepare any students for the leaving cert and if a student chooses to sit a leaving cert subject that is at their own discretion. This has happened a handful of times in the last decade.
You simply can not compare the French vs German speakers in the LFI and Kilian’s as the LFI is a French school abroad. St Kilian’s is an Irish school with a German affiliation and connection. Not all classes are taught through the medium of German, but every student must study German to some level. You don’t get extra points for completing the leaving cert in German so having classes in English too makes sense, no? Their previous results in LC HL German over the last few years would indicate the students’ proficiency in German would certainly be above the national average.
I think we should take the last sentence as a given and move on to the issue at hand.
Their results were pulled down dramatically this year, the question is why?0 -
Isn't that reality inherently unfair though? Should the department be applauded for attempting to correct it when given the chance?
What? You can't just have a kid busting his backside for 6 years,
probably shelling out for grinds on top, to get high marks, truly engaging with a subject in as much as humanely possible for a 17-18 year old, being told by teachers who have experience of high grades for years that he is capable... And then have the department to take it away from them, because computer says no !!! Why would you applaud any computer for doing that?
No teacher with any sense of ethics could agree with that.0 -
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I think we should take the last sentence as a given and move on to the issue at hand.
Their results were pulled down dramatically this year, the question is why?
Basically because comparison with individual schools record was dropped at a late stage following the foul up in England. So it is likely the number of H1s assessed for that school was seen as too high and pulled back by the algorithim.
The losers this year are (a) last years students competing for 3rd level, (2) schools like this who perform above average for specific subjects and (c) schools where the teacher's assessments were honest and rigorous. The latter will have likely been pulled back because, in the country generally, teachers were far too generous resulting in a huge increase in H1s initially.0 -
Quantum Erasure wrote: »Because previous school performance wasn't taken into account, so it looked like they had been marked over generously?
I tend to agree that previous was ignored as part of the algorithm.
Now the second part, how did the algorithm know that it appeared to be 'over generous'?0 -
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You'll appreciate, no point has been missed. The whole point is, absolutely, that historical performance in some schools will vary very significantly. And there's no reason to believe the outcome would have changed this year, if exams had taken place. I'm not conscious of anyone saying different.You're either pretending to miss the point deliberately, or you're not equipped to have this discussion. Either way, there isn't much point in continuing this, but I'll give you another chance anyway.
I have wondered why the significant variation in performance is only seen as a problem when it can't be replicated.
Now will you continue to miss the point, or will you now show any appreciation of why the system of estimating grades cannot take account of school. It can, and does, take account of how that school cohort performed at Junior Cert. That's a nod towards "group" performance.
But can you seriously envisage determining grades by formally allowing students to inherit previous years of performance by other students? Have you any appreciation of why people would find that unfair?
As for third level performance by this years cohort, who's to know? This gives a break to self motivated high achievers. Unlike you, I wouldn't be so anxious to write them off because of the school they went to.0 -
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You are sorely misinformed. I also know many of the teachers. The senior cycle of the LFI follows the French programme and as such is a fully French school. The exams they sit are all in French and follow the curriculum in France.. The LFI does not prepare any students for the leaving cert and if a student chooses to sit a leaving cert subject that is at their own discretion. This has happened a handful of times in the last decade.
You simply can not compare the French vs German speakers in the LFI and Kilian’s as the LFI is a French school abroad. St Kilian’s is an Irish school with a German affiliation and connection. Not all classes are taught through the medium of German, but every student must study German to some level. You don’t get extra points for completing the leaving cert in German so having classes in English too makes sense, no? Their previous results in LC HL German over the last few years would indicate the students’ proficiency in German would certainly be above the national average.
The point is that there are LFI students who sit the LC and the ones that do, do so under St. Kilians roll number. It would be interesting to see how these students performed in the LC. The only way to get the real metrics of past performance is the aggregated school level data which is available from the board of management. Individual statements from school management who have always up played the school results about how their school is so international and how their students go to study abroad which is the reason why the school doesn’t perform as well as other schools needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. Why is it Kilians are always making excuses about the LC results. Me thinks the lady does protest too much.
It’s absolutely acceptable to compare LFI students to Kilians because Kilians is a “Deutsche Schule” and receives a lot of funding from the German government. It’s a reasonable expectation when sending your kids to a Deutsche Schule that there is a minimum proficiency in German rather than this “school of encounter” term that they have come up with and this method of “streaming” kids between native German speakers and non native speakers where the majority of the resources appear to be focused on the native speakers to bring the school up to the minimum standard of German needed to maintain the “Deutsche Schule” status so they keep their funding from German government. So the fact that some kids are proficient in German is not an indictment of the school but rather these kids are speaking German at home anyway. Goes without saying that the German government is not going to fund an Irish school that barely teaches German which from what I’ve been told is the reason the school came up with “streaming” about 5/6 years ago because they were in danger of losing their status of being a Deutsche Schule.
The reality is that Kilians is not a full German school but rather an Irish school with cultural links to Germany. The issue for a lot of parents is that the school calls itself a Deutsche Schule and parents have the legitimate expectation that the majority or a large portion of the classes are delivered in German when the reality is the vast majority of lessons are in English with German mother tongue reserved for a select few who the school think will bring them up to the minimum standard of German in order to maintain funding.0 -
All of the above is irrelevant in the context of the grades fiasco.
Regardless of how many classes they teach through German or not, if they have a constant cohort of native German speakers sitting the exam each year, unique to that school, that means they can knock out 20-odd H1s year on year then they shouldn’t be so heavily penalised as they were this year.
I can imagine any examiner who gets the bundle of exams from that school noticing it as an outlier compared to the other exams when they are marking given the high proportion of students who will write German to a high standard.0 -
Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »The point is that there are LFI students who sit the LC and the ones that do, do so under St. Kilians roll number. It would be interesting to see how these students performed in the LC. The only way to get the real metrics of past performance is the aggregated school level data which is available from the board of management. Individual statements from school management who have always up played the school results about how their school is so international and how their students go to study abroad which is the reason why the school doesn’t perform as well as other schools needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. Why is it Kilians are always making excuses about the LC results. Me thinks the lady does protest too much.
It’s absolutely acceptable to compare LFI students to Kilians because Kilians is a “Deutsche Schule” and receives a lot of funding from the German government. It’s a reasonable expectation when sending your kids to a Deutsche Schule that there is a minimum proficiency in German rather than this “school of encounter” term that they have come up with and this method of “streaming” kids between native German speakers and non native speakers where the majority of the resources appear to be focused on the native speakers to bring the school up to the minimum standard of German needed to maintain the “Deutsche Schule” status so they keep their funding from German government. So the fact that some kids are proficient in German is not an indictment of the school but rather these kids are speaking German at home anyway. Goes without saying that the German government is not going to fund an Irish school that barely teaches German which from what I’ve been told is the reason the school came up with “streaming” about 5/6 years ago because they were in danger of losing their status of being a Deutsche Schule.
The reality is that Kilians is not a full German school but rather an Irish school with cultural links to Germany. The issue for a lot of parents is that the school calls itself a Deutsche Schule and parents have the legitimate expectation that the majority or a large portion of the classes are delivered in German when the reality is the vast majority of lessons are in English with German mother tongue reserved for a select few who the school think will bring them up to the minimum standard of German in order to maintain funding.
Ok we get it, they don't speak fluent German all the time.
But that's besides the point the principal was making.
Unless you think she's making up the numbers?0 -
Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »The point is that there are LFI students who sit the LC and the ones that do, do so under St. Kilians roll number. It would be interesting to see how these students performed in the LC. The only way to get the real metrics of past performance is the aggregated school level data which is available from the board of management. Individual statements from school management who have always up played the school results about how their school is so international and how their students go to study abroad which is the reason why the school doesn’t perform as well as other schools needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. Why is it Kilians are always making excuses about the LC results. Me thinks the lady does protest too much.
It’s absolutely acceptable to compare LFI students to Kilians because Kilians is a “Deutsche Schule” and receives a lot of funding from the German government. It’s a reasonable expectation when sending your kids to a Deutsche Schule that there is a minimum proficiency in German rather than this “school of encounter” term that they have come up with and this method of “streaming” kids between native German speakers and non native speakers where the majority of the resources appear to be focused on the native speakers to bring the school up to the minimum standard of German needed to maintain the “Deutsche Schule” status so they keep their funding from German government. So the fact that some kids are proficient in German is not an indictment of the school but rather these kids are speaking German at home anyway. Goes without saying that the German government is not going to fund an Irish school that barely teaches German which from what I’ve been told is the reason the school came up with “streaming” about 5/6 years ago because they were in danger of losing their status of being a Deutsche Schule.
The reality is that Kilians is not a full German school but rather an Irish school with cultural links to Germany. The issue for a lot of parents is that the school calls itself a Deutsche Schule and parents have the legitimate expectation that the majority or a large portion of the classes are delivered in German when the reality is the vast majority of lessons are in English with German mother tongue reserved for a select few who the school think will bring them up to the minimum standard of German in order to maintain funding.
As rainbowtrout has stated your comments are not relevant to this thread. A quick look at your comments made on previous threads indicate that you have some sort of vendetta against the school. I can categorically state that NO LFI student has ever sat a full Leaving Cert in the LFI. They may have transferred to St Kilian’s for senior cycle at which point they are no longer an LFI student. I am no longer willing to continue dialogue with you on this matter as you are not in full possession of the facts and appear to have an agenda.0 -
What? You can't just have a kid busting his backside for 6 years,
probably shelling out for grinds on top, to get high marks, truly engaging with a subject in as much as humanely possible for a 17-18 year old, being told by teachers who have experience of high grades for years that he is capable... And then have the department to take it away from them, because computer says no !!! Why would you applaud any computer for doing that?
No teacher with any sense of ethics could agree with that.
Agreed. But if the choice is marking down high performers, in poor performing schools, when schools performance history considered, or marking down high performers, in exclusive schools, when school performance is ignored, I would suggest the latter is the only option.0 -
This is Paul Murphy's alma mater. just for the people prattling on about elites etc0
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Ok we get it, they don't speak fluent German all the time.
But that's besides the point the principal was making.
Unless you think she's making up the numbers.
Why do I get the impression that this thread was created for another purpose?
All I'm saying is that the real numbers are the aggregated data. I read the letter on their website and article on Rte. Doesn't say how many kids actually sat German for the LC which would be useful to know. It refers to 9,24 and 8 which gives a total of 41. Is that a total of 41 students who sat German for the LC, surely there are more students in the German school sitting German as a subject for the LC?
Point is that a lot of this is just speculation without seeing ALL of the data.0 -
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Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »All I'm saying is that the real numbers are the aggregated data. I read the letter on their website and article on Rte. Doesn't say how many kids actually sat German for the LC which would be useful to know. It refers to 9,24 and 8 which gives a total of 41. Is that a total of 41 students who sat German for the LC, surely there are more students in the German school sitting German as a subject for the LC?
Point is that a lot of this is just speculation without seeing ALL of the data.
41% got H1s last year. Probably expecting around the same number this year based on last year and the trend from previous years. A drop down to 14% is massive and has to be looked at.0
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