Will coffee shops survive?

alksander · 12-05-2021 2:20am

fullstop wrote: »

The €9-18 for 250g is the price to you and me. If I go to 3fe and buy their Momentum Blend they’ll change me €9...you hardly think they’re making no profit on that?

Absolutely! They are a charity and giving out goods without profit! Sorry that I have omitted wholesale pricing and did not make my post at least twice as long.

In any case, if you are curious you can check out Nordic Approach, one of the main specialty green coffee wholesalers in Europe and check their prices, as they are completely public. On the highest public discount level it goes for $8-15 per kg. That is the raw green bean, which you need to transport, roast, package, transport again. There isn't all that much profit on a bag of specialty coffee, at least not to that extent you would imagine.

I am not a fan of 3fe, only mentioned as that was brought up during the thread. In fact I make my coffee at home, from nice beans, and occasionally drink in a coffee shop. Though I have found most of the employees in coffee shops in this country are lacking behind many other countries in terms of curiosity and knowledge of coffee.

david · 12-05-2021 2:21am

fullstop wrote: »

The €9-18 for 250g is the price to you and me. If I go to 3fe and buy their Momentum Blend they’ll change me €9...you hardly think they’re making no profit on that?

They’re making a small profit alright but not as much as you think. It’s all about brand association. The markup is on the barista coffee.

Cost price for a commercial coffee shop for high quality beans, roasted by a 3rd party is €16-20~ per kg plus vat. That’s approx €5-6 incl VAT per 250g. Add the cost of bagging at smaller volumes, custom branded packaging plus overheads and you’ll see that profit margin disappear very very quickly.

fits · 17-05-2021 7:34am

I just dont know how the likes of Costa get away with selling absolute muck at top dollar. I actually don’t mind McDonald’s coffee. It’s cheap and tastes fine to me.

We bought a sage barista express at Christmas and have barely bought take away since cos we know we can make it the way we want it at home. So the horse boxes aren’t making much from this household.

Cal4567 · 17-05-2021 8:10am

If someone had told me 40 years ago that you could make a decent living out of coffee never mind water, I'd have laughed you out of the room.

You bet it has a future. It's like wine, people have become connoisseurs. Some examples of mass produced muck out there but if you can tap into what the middle classes desire, go for it. Talk about variations of a theme.

Experience_day · 17-05-2021 8:20am

JustAThought wrote: »

Well if you’re drinking awful coffees then you’re going to bad places. Not everyone likes their coffee the same but there are lots of great different coffee places out there that will make it however you like it.

And Sure - I can sit at home and boil a kettle and make nice cup of instant coffee and it dosn’t cost me e3.20 a cup and it tastes ok. But if I factor in the monthly mortgage, the electricity bill, the insurance on the house, the price of my kettle, the cost of the overhead on the car to drive to the supermarket and the cost of the insurance, tax and petrol on the car to do that every day then the proce of that daily coffee becomes a lot more.

Cafes then also have to have specialised equipment, health and safety licenses and HSE inspector visits, public liability insurance, PAYE overheads, employer tax, maternity pay, holiday pay, pension contributions, etc etc - and yet mostly provide a warm ambient attractive local and convenient place to go and hang out for an hour or so. Not bad for e3.20 per table.

Or maybe don't have instant coffee sh1te and pay for a nice coffee machine that will produce lovely coffee for years.

The price of coffee in Dublin is an absolute joke.

Pandiculation · 17-05-2021 8:22am

It’s hard to know. It’s got the sense of a bit of a strange unreality at the moment due to COVID. I think we’re in for a rather strange few months as things open back up again. There’s inevitably going to be some degree of shake out as supports fade.

Black Sheep · 24-05-2021 7:55pm

I'm not sure how many people here work in coffee, but a question for those who do-

I recently saw an ad for a manager position in 3FE, which was posted on Instagram by a food account. It was advertising the pay as 13 euro an hour.

Must admit I was a bit shocked.

I'm aware of another cafe which is pretty well known and pays all their staff minimum wage.

My question isn't so much about whether people are being exploited or not, I don't know enough about the margins in coffee these days to say, but... Just asking, is this the norm?

It suggests to me that there's a very limited trajectory for someone who wants to work in coffee long term unless they can start their own business.

caviardreams · 24-05-2021 10:24pm

There was chat about this in the off topic thread recently - same goes for retail generally and hospitality. Unless you run your own business it's very poorly paid.

enricoh · 24-05-2021 10:48pm

A mate of mine works in the ifsc and was saying they have a top notch coffee machine at work that's free. Half the workers come in in the morning after buying their coffee n it's like a fashion accessory for them. Nip out for fresh air at lunchtime and buy another one. Seems like a waste of money to me.

James 007 · 24-05-2021 11:26pm

enricoh wrote: »

A mate of mine works in the ifsc and was saying they have a top notch coffee machine at work that's free. Half the workers come in in the morning after buying their coffee n it's like a fashion accessory for them. Nip out for fresh air at lunchtime and buy another one. Seems like a waste of money to me.

That care free attitude about spending was around 2000 to 2008, then when everything crashed people changed their attitude, most of those young people were in school when the crash happened. Now those that you feel are older haven't learnt the lessons from the last crash. I don't mind having a coffee out, but I treat it as a treat when meeting someone, out for a cycle during a weekend but having coffees out during the working week is such a waste of your hard earned money.

caviardreams · 25-05-2021 7:37am

James 007 wrote: »

That care free attitude about spending was around 2000 to 2008, then when everything crashed people changed their attitude, most of those young people were in school when the crash happened. Now those that you feel are older haven't learnt the lessons from the last crash. I don't mind having a coffee out, but I treat it as a treat when meeting someone, out for a cycle during a weekend but having coffees out during the working week is such a waste of your hard earned money.

they obviously get value from it in some way though otherwise they wouldn't do it? Value is subjective and different to everyone. Some people think a high end car brings is great value - others think cars are a waste of money full stop.

Hodors Appletart · 25-05-2021 7:49am

I disagree that shop bought coffee is a waste of money - well, coffee bought from a proper indie coffee shop that's not all about the milky sugary mochachocaskinnyfrappalatte stuff - I nice single origin or well thought out blend from a shop like 3FE or similar is absolutely worth the spend, especially if you don't have the equipment at home.

I wouldn't go every day because I can and do make great coffee myself at home, so it's a treat.

whisky_galore · 25-05-2021 7:58am

Yyhhuuu wrote: »

Disgraceful to see the amount of coffee cups around the place destroying the environment

+1
Place is full of discarded cups. There needs to be a tax put on them and an incentive for reusable cups. It wouldn't be a huge ask for stall operators to take a cup, rinse it and fill it with their overpriced sludge

Tec Diver · 25-05-2021 7:59am

They were/are really overpriced for what you get. Having a coffee has become a social norm, and until that changes we will be paying high prices and coffee shops cash in.

lisasimpson · 25-05-2021 8:14am

whisky_galore wrote: »

+1
Place is full of discarded cups. There needs to be a tax put on them and an incentive for reusable cups. It wouldn't be a huge ask for stall operators to take a cup, rinse it and fill it with their overpriced sludge

Are there many coffee shops allowing you to bring your own cup. This was starting to gain momentum a year or 2 before covid but once covid hit it was reusable cups only

Hodors Appletart · 25-05-2021 8:15am

On the reusable cup thing, in fairness every shop stopped handling them when the pandemic hit, I certainly remember about 6-12 months before Covid at least some shops were giving a discount to people with reusable cups.

whisky_galore · 25-05-2021 8:32am

lisasimpson wrote: »

Are there many coffee shops allowing you to bring your own cup. This was starting to gain momentum a year or 2 before covid but once covid hit it was reusable cups only

Got one in my own cup about 3 weeks ago.
I'd put it down to laziness on part of customers or they're afraid to ask.

25-05-2021 8:35am

whisky_galore wrote: »

+1
Place is full of discarded cups. There needs to be a tax put on them and an incentive for reusable cups. It wouldn't be a huge ask for stall operators to take a cup, rinse it and fill it with their overpriced sludge

most coffee cups are compostable now, at least in my locality

obviously doesnt mean you toss it away, and our collective attitude to littering is pretty appalling, but they are not the environmental threat that they once were

I get a coffee a day (during the week) - its the walk through the park and the ritual and the chats with the guys in the coffee shop as much as it is the coffee itself. That is part of the €3 for me

Hodors Appletart · 25-05-2021 8:53am

Are you sure they are compostable here?

I know a person who was involved with the introduction of compostable cups to a certain petrol chain (rhymes with mapplemreen) and they ordered a load of supposedly compostable cups, but nowhere in Ireland had the facility to actually use them in compost.

As with all recycling etc, not everything is always as it seems

Black Sheep · 25-05-2021 8:56am

Hodors Appletart wrote: »

On the reusable cup thing, in fairness every shop stopped handling them when the pandemic hit, I certainly remember about 6-12 months before Covid at least some shops were giving a discount to people with reusable cups.

Agree with this. There was huge momentum around this, and the pandemic was an unexpected set back.

fits · 25-05-2021 8:57am

Hodors Appletart wrote: »

Are you sure they are compostable here?

I know a person who was involved with the introduction of compostable cups to a certain petrol chain (rhymes with mapplemreen) and they ordered a load of supposedly compostable cups, but nowhere in Ireland had the facility to actually use them in compost.

As with all recycling etc, not everything is always as it seems

A lot of them are compostable only in industrial facilities. Ie you can’t throw them on the heap out the back. Reusable cups were really gaining traction before the pandemic. Seems like little reason not to start up again since fomites seem to be a negligible factor.

whisky_galore · 25-05-2021 8:58am

I very much doubt the ones I see fcuked around are compostable. Certainly not the plastic tops anyhow.

25-05-2021 9:32am

The cups I buy for home are definitely compostable, having a quick look it would be hard to find ones that aren’t.

cuculainn · 25-05-2021 9:32am

Keyzer wrote: »

I got a moka pot about a year ago, best purchase I made. Made me realise how easy it is to make a superb cup of coffee at a fraction of the cost of takeaway. And astounded me how so many establishments manage to make a sh1t cup given the price your paying.

Any tips on how to get superb coffee from a moka pot?
I get boiled tar from mine!!!

El_Duderino 09 · 25-05-2021 9:44am

cuculainn wrote: »

Any tips on how to get superb coffee from a moka pot?
I get boiled tar from mine!!!

You've got espressos. So add a shot of espresso to a cup of water for an Americano?

Hodors Appletart · 25-05-2021 9:50am

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

The cups I buy for home are definitely compostable, having a quick look it would be hard to find ones that aren’t.

For home?

Why are you using single use cups at home, in any form?

25-05-2021 10:43am

Hodors Appletart wrote: »

For home?

Why are you using single use cups at home, in any form?

I just prefer to drink from them and I don’t find a porcelain or “keep” cup pleasant to drink from. 90% of the time I’m taking one in the car with me anyway. Plus, they’re compostable.

Responder XY · 25-05-2021 10:50am

I like my specialty/third wave coffee and think it's good value for €3.00ish for all the reasons folks have outlined above. You just can't replicate that at home without a significant investment in equipment that would take a while to pay for itself even with take out coffee at that cost.
Thinking you can get the same quality from bean to cup machine or a moka pot is ludicrous, fair enough if you don't like coffee/just want the caffeine. Filter/Aeropress is probably the best that can be managed at a lower cost at home (Still require good beans though which are a minimum of €9 for 250g, usually more than that)

But having said that, I don't know how all the coffee shops will survive. Within 500m of my front door there are (at least) 26 different outlets selling barista made coffee, all at >€2.50 a cup. Admittedly I do live in an urban location that's considered quite hipster and has a good mix of offices and accommodation so has dealt with the pandemic reasonably well, but I've just no idea how they all survive.
Quality amongst the 26 is mixed, I haven't tried them all, but only a small handful would I never go back to but 3 or 4 really stand out and tend to go to them most.

ckeego · 25-05-2021 11:39am

whisky_galore wrote: »

Got one in my own cup about 3 weeks ago.
I'd put it down to laziness on part of customers or they're afraid to ask.

Incorrect.

Many shops have specific signs stating no reusable cups due Covid.

ckeego · 25-05-2021 11:44am

cuculainn wrote: »

Any tips on how to get superb coffee from a moka pot?
I get boiled tar from mine!!!

Lower the temperature on the stove and don’t rush it.
Also make sure the grind is correct and the coffee is tamped down and not just heaped in.
Experiment a bit with the grind and the amount of coffee.
My son uses a stove top and I can honestly say it’s one of the nicest coffees (including the €4+ ones!!) that I’ve tasted.

whisky_galore · 25-05-2021 11:47am

ckeego wrote: »

Incorrect.

Many shops have specific signs stating no reusable cups due Covid.

Well I wouldn't use them then.

MrMusician18 · 25-05-2021 11:59am

Coffee shops aren't going away but the market is completely saturated. Consequently we will see a lot of business failures in this sector.

We've been here before, doughnuts was the last one.

Granadino · 25-05-2021 12:03pm

Don't mind your Nespressos and all those fancy coffee pod machines, where you have to recycle loads of plastic anyhow.
Just get the classic mediterranean coffee pot. Job done. Don't mind your piss pods.

Yyhhuuu · 25-05-2021 12:42pm

ckeego wrote: »

Incorrect.

Many shops have specific signs stating no reusable cups due Covid.

These business are really clueless. The risk of Covid from Fomites as they're referred to is minimal. What about if the operator handles a psper cup and then handles cash? What's the difference with a reusable cup and cash? Social distancing, mask and ventilation far more important. These very same coffee shops have their doors closed. These signs are only to make the customer feel safe. They're not mandated by the state.

El Tarangu · 25-05-2021 1:12pm

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

I just prefer to drink from them and I don’t find a porcelain or “keep” cup pleasant to drink from. 90% of the time I’m taking one in the car with me anyway. Plus, they’re compostable.

Jesus Christ - no wonder the planet is f**ked; do you have any idea how much emissions are produced chopping down a tree, processing it into paper, and then shipping that half way around the world?

25-05-2021 2:10pm

El Tarangu wrote: »

Jesus Christ - no wonder the planet is f**ked; do you have any idea how much emissions are produced chopping down a tree, processing it into paper, and then shipping that half way around the world?

I don’t like drinking out of the other ones and to be honest it’s something I have no interest in. It has nothing to do with the price and status of coffee shops anyway and if I don’t litter with them then I’m more than happy, plus I’m saving loads not buying many out.

.

enricoh · 25-05-2021 2:21pm

caviardreams wrote: »

they obviously get value from it in some way though otherwise they wouldn't do it? Value is subjective and different to everyone. Some people think a high end car brings is great value - others think cars are a waste of money full stop.

It's no skin off my nose, but 2 coffees a day is the guts of e8 , 5 times a week is 40, so the guts of 2k a year (after tax!).
horses for courses, but a lot of them would be young and on modest enough salaries. It seems a lot to spend on something they can get in the office for free.

shesty · 25-05-2021 2:27pm

The appearance of the Flat White was a jaw dropper for me.
Smaller than a cappucino, but the same price at 3.20.
Explain, please.It's just a very rip-off cappucino (and I like my coffee and am willing to pay!).
Lately I bought a milk frother/warmer for my house in Harvey Norman, and we have a moka pot.I am happy out and it is saving me a fortune.I may commit to a coffee machine in the future but while I dither, this set-up will do me.

thomil · 25-05-2021 2:32pm

There's one aspect about coffee shops that hasn't been addressed at all in this thread yet, namely the social & demographics side of the coin.

Particularly in the large "metropolitan" areas of Ireland, a lot of people, primarily the younger generations, are forced to live in shared and/or sub-standard apartments. This means that they have little to no personal space to invite friends over or study. Coffee shops, particularly those with a larger footprint, offer a safe and pleasant environment for that, whether it's meeting friends, or just hunkering down with a laptop and a notepad to get some studying done. The fact that noise levels in a cafe have been found to increase creativity and productivity (Mehta, Zhu, et. al., 2012, published in Journal of Consumer Research) further reinforces that trend.

Then, there's the demographics aspect. Back when I last actually sat down in a cafe back in December 2020, a lot of the customers there seemed to be either French or Spanish, who will most likely be used to dropping into a cafe from back home anyway. Hell, even I'm used to whiling away an afternoon in a cafe from my school days in Austria, so this group of customers alone will keep frequenting coffee shops no matter what.

So yes, coffee shops will survive, and will likely become a permanent fixture in Ireland. Granted, not every cafe will be successful, not every location is suited for it, but on the whole, they're here to stay and I for one can't wait to get back into one and actually sit down with a coffee!

25-05-2021 2:34pm

shesty wrote: »

The appearance of the Flat White was a jaw dropper for me.
Smaller than a cappucino, but the same price at 3.20.
Explain, please.It's just a very rip-off cappucino (and I like my coffee and am willing to pay!).
Lately I bought a milk frother/warmer for my house in Harvey Norman, and we have a moka pot.I am happy out and it is saving me a fortune.I may commit to a coffee machine in the future but while I dither, this set-up will do me.

Are the flat whites (our version anyway) supposed to have piles of milk? I got one the other day that was well over half milk but I don’t remember them like that when they appeared first.

El Tarangu · 25-05-2021 2:37pm

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

I don’t like drinking out of the other ones and to be honest it’s something I have no interest in. It has nothing to do with the price and status of coffee shops anyway and if I don’t litter with them then I’m more than happy, plus I’m saving loads not buying many out.

.

Do you know what - in a way my reaction was over the top; what you is essentially the same waste as people who purchase takeaway coffee every day.

ckeego · 25-05-2021 2:41pm

shesty wrote: »

The appearance of the Flat White was a jaw dropper for me.
Smaller than a cappucino, but the same price at 3.20.
Explain, please.It's just a very rip-off cappucino (and I like my coffee and am willing to pay!).
Lately I bought a milk frother/warmer for my house in Harvey Norman, and we have a moka pot.I am happy out and it is saving me a fortune.I may commit to a coffee machine in the future but while I dither, this set-up will do me.

Now multiply that further when you are charged 50c-€1 extra for the spit of oat milk in a macchiato..

Was talking to a barista about this yesterday and there are some dairy full milks that actually cost more than oat milk...

25-05-2021 2:51pm

El Tarangu wrote: »

Do you know what - in a way my reaction was over the top; what you is essentially the same waste as people who purchase takeaway coffee every day.

I reuse each cup minimum 5 times too, same if I buy a coffee in one (except insomnia as they leak). It’s not ideal but I can’t explain it - I just only like drinking it from them.

cmac2009 · 25-05-2021 3:36pm

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Are the flat whites (our version anyway) supposed to have piles of milk? I got one the other day that was well over half milk but I don’t remember them like that when they appeared first.

Typically they should be in or around 150ml-170ml. But it varies widely.

whisky_galore · 25-05-2021 4:03pm

thomil wrote: »

There's one aspect about coffee shops that hasn't been addressed at all in this thread yet, namely the social & demographics side of the coin.

Particularly in the large "metropolitan" areas of Ireland, a lot of people, primarily the younger generations, are forced to live in shared and/or sub-standard apartments. This means that they have little to no personal space to invite friends over or study. Coffee shops, particularly those with a larger footprint, offer a safe and pleasant environment for that, whether it's meeting friends, or just hunkering down with a laptop and a notepad to get some studying done. The fact that noise levels in a cafe have been found to increase creativity and productivity (Mehta, Zhu, et. al., 2012, published in Journal of Consumer Research) further reinforces that trend.

Then, there's the demographics aspect. Back when I last actually sat down in a cafe back in December 2020, a lot of the customers there seemed to be either French or Spanish, who will most likely be used to dropping into a cafe from back home anyway. Hell, even I'm used to whiling away an afternoon in a cafe from my school days in Austria, so this group of customers alone will keep frequenting coffee shops no matter what.

So yes, coffee shops will survive, and will likely become a permanent fixture in Ireland. Granted, not every cafe will be successful, not every location is suited for it, but on the whole, they're here to stay and I for one can't wait to get back into one and actually sit down with a coffee!

I can see why the shops, the good ones, will survive.

The plethora of horseboxes and vans that people have left their office jobs and pinned their hopes and dreams to, maybe not so much, once the pandemic is behind us.

caviardreams · 25-05-2021 8:09pm

Coffee is an experience, moving beyond the take away argument, it's a place to work, get a break from the home office (which is like here to stay), a change of scene, a social space. It's actually pretty cheap in that regard versus a pub or restaurant.

Completely agree that the lesser quality / service places may likely close like in any industry but the top service / quality offerings will survive.

shesty · 26-05-2021 2:29pm

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Are the flat whites (our version anyway) supposed to have piles of milk? I got one the other day that was well over half milk but I don’t remember them like that when they appeared first.

As I understood it they aren't supposed to, but I have also had a couple that are the same size as a medium cappucino and full of milk.Generally they are a small size cup though, with less milk I think.Which begs the question why I am being charged 3.20 for one.(I don't buy them anymore).
So....yeah.

ckeego · 26-05-2021 8:40pm

shesty wrote: »

As I understood it they aren't supposed to, but I have also had a couple that are the same size as a medium cappucino and full of milk.Generally they are a small size cup though, with less milk I think.Which begs the question why I am being charged 3.20 for one.(I don't buy them anymore).
So....yeah.

Believe me, €3.20 is “skinny” for a flat white in some places..

And it’s interesting that around about that price point, some folk are saying “I’m out”

That’s the original point I was attempting to make-not really that coffee joints will disappear, more that some of the pricing and sharp practices will put some of them out of business.

El_Duderino 09 · 26-05-2021 9:56pm

caviardreams wrote: »

Coffee is an experience, moving beyond the take away argument, it's a place to work, get a break from the home office (which is like here to stay), a change of scene, a social space. It's actually pretty cheap in that regard versus a pub or restaurant.

Completely agree that the lesser quality / service places may likely close like in any industry but the top service / quality offerings will survive.

That's a bit idealistic. It's not as simple as high quality = most likely to survive. Marketing, recognisability (chains), standardised menus in chains and franchises mean they're most likely to survive above a unique, small, high quality high cost cafe. The Starbucks "experienve" gives it an advantage, for example.

Restaurants have been around a long time and McDonald's does great business without having high quality or high cost food.

caviardreams · 27-05-2021 7:40pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's a bit idealistic. It's not as simple as high quality = most likely to survive. Marketing, recognisability (chains), standardised menus in chains and franchises mean they're most likely to survive above a unique, small, high quality high cost cafe. The Starbucks "experienve" gives it an advantage, for example.

Restaurants have been around a long time and McDonald's does great business without having high quality or high cost food.

Yes that's why I said top service or quality places will survive - cafes that provide a valued service (service being based on value for money, convenience, widespread availability, quality customer service, soft furnishings, whatever!) will continue to do well. It's about providing something people want to pay for - that's not necessarily just top quality, specialty coffee, but there are lots of cafes that don't offer either quality or service differentiation and these may fall by the wayside due to competition.

Will coffee shops survive?

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