Will coffee shops survive?

ckeego

Tabnabs wrote: »

I hope that the upshot of this spotlight on coffee (and tea) means an improvement of the cafe culture that so eludes us here in Ireland.

But at €3.50 for a coffee I want a seat, wifi, heating, a roof to keep me dry.

... Absolutely.

I can also understand that bricks and mortar shops still have the same rental costs and probably less in the way of high yield sales such as food and pastries, but hiking the prices to closing in on €5 for a basic coffee With a dash of oat/almond/rice milk through a hatch with no access to the facilities will only last so long..

Feisar

Aero Press into a flask, top up with boiling water, sorted for the day.

I pulled into a filling station in Feb before last and grabbed some change from the car. Went in, filled my coffee and went to pay. It was €3.20 and I had three. Went back to the car to get the twenty cents.

Ordered a flask that evening.

PunkIPA

There is an absolute night and day difference between the places using premium beans like Cloudpicker and 3fe and the vast majority of places that use the inferior beans.

I have no problem whatsoever paying c.€3.50 for a latte made properly with the premium beans. It's not really very illuminating to compare the cost of an espresso in Italy to the cost of these coffees - we probably have higher rents, rates, wages, and tax in Dublin than in Rome.

What I do object to are the bigger chains and lazier cafes charging the exact same price for something that often tastes worse or similar to an instant coffee.

Compare a premium made with decent beans to a McDonald's coffee and you will see that the premium coffees are actually good value, if anything.

Calahonda52

Tabnabs wrote: »

I hope that the upshot of this spotlight on coffee (and tea) means an improvement of the cafe culture that so eludes us here in Ireland.

But at €3.50 for a coffee I want a seat, wifi, heating, a roof to keep me dry.

so you can hog the wifi and keep the seat occupied, reducing the ROS for the shop.:(

ckeego

alksander wrote: »

I'm not sure the 1.20 euro espresso in Rome can be compared to a "third wave" cappuccino/latte. They are very different things. The cost of a "third wave" (will explain below)

To go into a tiny bit of detail, they are very different cultures of coffee, using very different ingredients. The Italian style espresso goes mostly for dark roast (or medium roast), where the subtleties (and more importantly quality) of the beans are less visible. This means cheaper beans can be used. Some of the very popular "old style espresso" brands also use a blend of arabica and robusta beans. The latter again is a much cheaper variety. (There are also many varieties of arabica itself, and the location where it is grown matters a lot.)

Some of the places you have mentioned, like 3fe and shoe lane, are "third wave" coffee places using much more high quality coffee beans and use light (or medium) roast. This means the qualities and flavours are much more pronounced, and low quality beans can't be used. The high quality ones are usually hand picked and sorted too, adding to the costs. These beans go at the minimum for 9 euro per 250 grams, but can easily reach 18 euros per 200 grams. It depends on how rare the beans are and where the roaster is located, i.e. some nordic roasters are pretty expensive due to labour costs. La Cabra from Denmark for example is very popular, and they are on the expensive side.

After all this long intro, usually something between 18-21 grams of ground coffee goes into an espresso, which calculating with the cheapest 9 euro bag means the coffee beans alone cost 65 cents in your cup!

Btw, the 3 - 3.5 euro mark is pretty common across Europe for these coffees, it is mostly the universal price. What is horrendous though that those old style places using the cheap beans charge the same in Ireland.

Good post, but I don’t buy the third wave must equal three times the price..

I’ve been really lucky to travel the world extensively in my line of work and having also lived abroad for extended periods (mainly in Europe) one of my first things to do in any layover is to seek out what is touted as the best espresso in that particular area.

The prices you quote are, for the most part, accurate and I’d agree that in some Italian coffee bars they will serve the lower end bean, darkly roasted (Kimbo, Bristot etc) but there are many others that at a very similar price will serve higher quality coffee (say Illy, Cafe Vergnano)

Take Berlin and Barcelona as other examples-The Barn ship their high end coffee worldwide and would reflect a price of €3 for a macchiato, 5 Elephants similar, and these are the high price “experience” equivalent of 3fe... and no extra pricing for alternative milk... In Mainland Europe I have found it a rarity to have a premium extra charge for alt milk..

100% correct for the Nordic’s-still not as expensive as where Ireland is at the moment.

London is one of the most expensive places I have seen, but you’ll still get your daily fix for approx. 2.50, maybe 2.80 at a stretch, which would convert to about 2.90-3.20.

Like auld rip off Ireland, they too charge premium for the drop of milk, as well as that pretentious crap with the 2.5, 3.0 chalkboard pricing...

El Tarangu

JustAThought wrote: »

And Sure - I can sit at home and boil a kettle and make nice cup of instant coffee and it dosn’t cost me e3.20 a cup and it tastes ok. But if I factor in the monthly mortgage, the electricity bill, the insurance on the house, the price of my kettle, the cost of the overhead on the car to drive to the supermarket and the cost of the insurance, tax and petrol on the car to do that every day then the proce of that daily coffee becomes a lot more.

By all means enjoy yourself and spend your money how you like, but your mortgage and home insurance will not go down if you drink coffee at home less often. Likewise your motoring costs (unless you bought the car purely for the purposes of buying coffee).

ckeego

PunkIPA wrote: »

There is an absolute night and day difference between the places using premium beans like Cloudpicker and 3fe and the vast majority of places that use the inferior beans.

I have no problem whatsoever paying c.€3.50 for a latte made properly with the premium beans. It's not really very illuminating to compare the cost of an espresso in Italy to the cost of these coffees - we probably have higher rents, rates, wages, and tax in Dublin than in Rome.

What I do object to are the bigger chains and lazier cafes charging the exact same price for something that often tastes worse or similar to an instant coffee.

Compare a premium made with decent beans to a McDonald's coffee and you will see that the premium coffees are actually good value, if anything.

Why is it not “very illuminating” to highlight the fact that I was charged €4.15 for a poorer version of what cost me €1.20 In another European capital?

“Probably” having higher rents, wages etc. still doesn’t explain that hike up. I’m sure the costs of a central city rent in Rome isn’t that much cheaper than here, and I’m sure they ain’t giving away the coffee for gratiuto either.

Almost 4 times the price... Ah sure, drive on.. No point in complaining, we’ll just bend over a bit further..

BTW, I’m with you on Cloudpicker and 3fe beans. Both excellent and constantly evolving as do Bell Lane... Not too sure about PunkIPA though!!;)

The One Doctor

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

In Limerick City where my brother works, his treats himself to a coffee every day in a particular coffee shop, because they have good coffee and their locals(not a chain)...

...my coffee loving friends and family, the coffee on offer is poor and the staff don't give a toss, because they have no interest in coffee...they just wanna turn up, pour coffee and get paid

Coffee is just burnt cherry pits in hot water, of course they just want to pour coffee and get paid. What else do you go into a coffee shop for? The hipsters?

Yyhhuuu

I know of a small shop charging €1 for a coffee and it's great coffee Just shows the mark-up in coffee. It's a very lucrative business but the market is oversaturated.

joe40

The correct price for a business to charge for a cup of coffee, is whatever price people are willing to spend.

I will spend up to 3 euro for an americano, after that I'm out. If a business want to charge more well that their right. I have the right to not purchase.

Hodors Appletart

Yyhhuuu wrote: »

I know of a small shop charging €1 for a coffee and it's great coffee Just shows the mark-up in coffee. It's a very lucrative business but the market is oversaturated.

where!

ckeego

joe40 wrote: »

The correct price for a business to charge for a cup of coffee, is whatever price people are willing to spend.

I will spend up to 3 euro for an americano, after that I'm out. If a business want to charge more well that their right. I have the right to not purchase.

Spot on with your analysis.

Not that long ago, The Happy Pear were €1.80 for a DE, with no charge for alt milk.

€3.20 now, and that is in a village saturated with coffee shops.

As you say, shops will charge what they can get away with and interesting based off the original post, there are quite a few here who have reached a point where they say, that’s it for me, Boss. I’m out...
That one particular shop this morning at €4.15 might well have pulled the handles for me and with the attitude and arrogance of one of their team, I won’t be darkening their door again.

ckeego

Just thinking of it again now..

Espresso €3 (3 for espresso, as Rolf H would say, Can ya guess what it is yit?!!)

65c extra for the spit of ordinary milk=a 3.65 macchiato

50c extra to change the drop to oat.

QED, 1.15 for probably 25ml of oat milk.

1litre of oat milk another barista tells me is 1.60 in the trade, which is 4cent for the 25ml.

That’s Narcos scale of markup right there...

krissovo

Cost price to the retailer for a single shot of Starbucks including cup,lid,milk etc was under 30cent a few years ago.

[Deleted User]

The new starbucks tap and collect app is awesome.

And they just gave me a free drink

My flat white is free today.

Yyhhuuu

Hodors Appletart wrote: »

where!

Domnick Street

[Deleted User]

I bought a coffee machine, flask, and a stack of paper cups last year. Even with buying beans and more cups it’ll never be as expensive as regularly buying out with the way the screwing is going.

TomTomTim

Keyzer wrote: »

I'll probably sound like an aul bjollox saying this but the takeaway coffee game in Dublin is beyond ridiculous for two main reasons:

1. The cost is astronomical for a cup of coffee in Dublin...

2. The quality, for the most part, is dreadful...

I got a moka pot about a year ago, best purchase I made. Made me realise how easy it is to make a superb cup of coffee at a fraction of the cost of takeaway. And astounded me how so many establishments manage to make a sh1t cup given the price your paying.

Agreed. You can get a good moka pot for a tenner in some places. Both Aldi & Lidl do great coffee too which lowers the cost even further. Since using the aforementioned, I've never had a coffee away from home that tastes as good as the stuff I make myself.

mad m

A friend of the OH, their daughter went full hog and bought a trailer or as you say box cart, top of range coffee machine, went on Barista course. Think it cost all in around 10k. She had designs on getting a license from a local authority but they weren’t giving them out so she could only sell coffee on private land. It hardly got off ground and she is trying to sell it now. Disaster!

fullstop

alksander wrote: »

I'm not sure the 1.20 euro espresso in Rome can be compared to a "third wave" cappuccino/latte. They are very different things. The cost of a "third wave" (will explain below)

To go into a tiny bit of detail, they are very different cultures of coffee, using very different ingredients. The Italian style espresso goes mostly for dark roast (or medium roast), where the subtleties (and more importantly quality) of the beans are less visible. This means cheaper beans can be used. Some of the very popular "old style espresso" brands also use a blend of arabica and robusta beans. The latter again is a much cheaper variety. (There are also many varieties of arabica itself, and the location where it is grown matters a lot.)

Some of the places you have mentioned, like 3fe and shoe lane, are "third wave" coffee places using much more high quality coffee beans and use light (or medium) roast. This means the qualities and flavours are much more pronounced, and low quality beans can't be used. The high quality ones are usually hand picked and sorted too, adding to the costs. These beans go at the minimum for 9 euro per 250 grams, but can easily reach 18 euros per 200 grams. It depends on how rare the beans are and where the roaster is located, i.e. some nordic roasters are pretty expensive due to labour costs. La Cabra from Denmark for example is very popular, and they are on the expensive side.

After all this long intro, usually something between 18-21 grams of ground coffee goes into an espresso, which calculating with the cheapest 9 euro bag means the coffee beans alone cost 65 cents in your cup!

Btw, the 3 - 3.5 euro mark is pretty common across Europe for these coffees, it is mostly the universal price. What is horrendous though that those old style places using the cheap beans charge the same in Ireland.

The €9-18 for 250g is the price to you and me. If I go to 3fe and buy their Momentum Blend they’ll change me €9...you hardly think they’re making no profit on that?

alksander

fullstop wrote: »

The €9-18 for 250g is the price to you and me. If I go to 3fe and buy their Momentum Blend they’ll change me €9...you hardly think they’re making no profit on that?

Absolutely! They are a charity and giving out goods without profit! Sorry that I have omitted wholesale pricing and did not make my post at least twice as long.

In any case, if you are curious you can check out Nordic Approach, one of the main specialty green coffee wholesalers in Europe and check their prices, as they are completely public. On the highest public discount level it goes for $8-15 per kg. That is the raw green bean, which you need to transport, roast, package, transport again. There isn't all that much profit on a bag of specialty coffee, at least not to that extent you would imagine.

I am not a fan of 3fe, only mentioned as that was brought up during the thread. In fact I make my coffee at home, from nice beans, and occasionally drink in a coffee shop. Though I have found most of the employees in coffee shops in this country are lacking behind many other countries in terms of curiosity and knowledge of coffee.

david

fullstop wrote: »

The €9-18 for 250g is the price to you and me. If I go to 3fe and buy their Momentum Blend they’ll change me €9...you hardly think they’re making no profit on that?

They’re making a small profit alright but not as much as you think. It’s all about brand association. The markup is on the barista coffee.

Cost price for a commercial coffee shop for high quality beans, roasted by a 3rd party is €16-20~ per kg plus vat. That’s approx €5-6 incl VAT per 250g. Add the cost of bagging at smaller volumes, custom branded packaging plus overheads and you’ll see that profit margin disappear very very quickly.

fits

I just dont know how the likes of Costa get away with selling absolute muck at top dollar. I actually don’t mind McDonald’s coffee. It’s cheap and tastes fine to me.

We bought a sage barista express at Christmas and have barely bought take away since cos we know we can make it the way we want it at home. So the horse boxes aren’t making much from this household.

Cal4567

If someone had told me 40 years ago that you could make a decent living out of coffee never mind water, I'd have laughed you out of the room.

You bet it has a future. It's like wine, people have become connoisseurs. Some examples of mass produced muck out there but if you can tap into what the middle classes desire, go for it. Talk about variations of a theme.

Experience_day

JustAThought wrote: »

Well if you’re drinking awful coffees then you’re going to bad places. Not everyone likes their coffee the same but there are lots of great different coffee places out there that will make it however you like it.

And Sure - I can sit at home and boil a kettle and make nice cup of instant coffee and it dosn’t cost me e3.20 a cup and it tastes ok. But if I factor in the monthly mortgage, the electricity bill, the insurance on the house, the price of my kettle, the cost of the overhead on the car to drive to the supermarket and the cost of the insurance, tax and petrol on the car to do that every day then the proce of that daily coffee becomes a lot more.

Cafes then also have to have specialised equipment, health and safety licenses and HSE inspector visits, public liability insurance, PAYE overheads, employer tax, maternity pay, holiday pay, pension contributions, etc etc - and yet mostly provide a warm ambient attractive local and convenient place to go and hang out for an hour or so. Not bad for e3.20 per table.

Or maybe don't have instant coffee sh1te and pay for a nice coffee machine that will produce lovely coffee for years.

The price of coffee in Dublin is an absolute joke.

Pandiculation

It’s hard to know. It’s got the sense of a bit of a strange unreality at the moment due to COVID. I think we’re in for a rather strange few months as things open back up again. There’s inevitably going to be some degree of shake out as supports fade.

Black Sheep

I'm not sure how many people here work in coffee, but a question for those who do-

I recently saw an ad for a manager position in 3FE, which was posted on Instagram by a food account. It was advertising the pay as 13 euro an hour.

Must admit I was a bit shocked.

I'm aware of another cafe which is pretty well known and pays all their staff minimum wage.

My question isn't so much about whether people are being exploited or not, I don't know enough about the margins in coffee these days to say, but... Just asking, is this the norm?

It suggests to me that there's a very limited trajectory for someone who wants to work in coffee long term unless they can start their own business.

caviardreams

There was chat about this in the off topic thread recently - same goes for retail generally and hospitality. Unless you run your own business it's very poorly paid.

enricoh

A mate of mine works in the ifsc and was saying they have a top notch coffee machine at work that's free. Half the workers come in in the morning after buying their coffee n it's like a fashion accessory for them. Nip out for fresh air at lunchtime and buy another one. Seems like a waste of money to me.

James 007

enricoh wrote: »

A mate of mine works in the ifsc and was saying they have a top notch coffee machine at work that's free. Half the workers come in in the morning after buying their coffee n it's like a fashion accessory for them. Nip out for fresh air at lunchtime and buy another one. Seems like a waste of money to me.

That care free attitude about spending was around 2000 to 2008, then when everything crashed people changed their attitude, most of those young people were in school when the crash happened. Now those that you feel are older haven't learnt the lessons from the last crash. I don't mind having a coffee out, but I treat it as a treat when meeting someone, out for a cycle during a weekend but having coffees out during the working week is such a waste of your hard earned money.