Who s behind the Gardai road checks?

Sycamore Tree · 08-01-2019 1:53pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

That's a bit of a leap. That assumes every fine cancelled was cancelled without proper cause which is definitely not the case.

We already established that 442 was around 80% of Gardai of Inspector rank or above in the 4 year period investigated. Most means > 50%.

The majority of FCN cancellations did not provide a reason so where is your evidence that any were cancelled for "proper cause"?

Do you Garda apologists receive money to muddy the waters?

Captain Obvious · 08-01-2019 2:00pm

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

We already established that 442 was around 80% of Gardai of Inspector rank or above in the 4 year period investigated. Most means > 50%.

The majority of FCN cancellations did not provide a reason so where is your evidence that any were cancelled for "proper cause"?

Every report would seem to support it. An example from the GSOC report.

1,185 notices were cancelled under the provision of the Juvenile Diversion Programme, of which one third were for speeding.

There's 1,185 cancelled correctly straight off the bat.

Discodog · 08-01-2019 2:11pm

Another Galway City checkpoint that's 5 today since 10am. The householder needing urgent assistance will be told there's no car available.

Captain Obvious · 08-01-2019 2:15pm

Discodog wrote: »

Another Galway City checkpoint that's 5 today since 10am. The householder needing urgent assistance will be told there's no car available.

Checkpoints are given low priority over urgent calls.

Discodog · 08-01-2019 2:37pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Checkpoints are given low priority over urgent calls.

There were two checkpoints today, at the same time, within Galway City. So that's two cars & four Guards.

It's so obvious that they are trying to provide stats for the new commissioner.

Captain Obvious · 08-01-2019 2:44pm

Discodog wrote: »

There were two checkpoints today, at the same time, within Galway City. So that's two cars & four Guards.

It's so obvious that they are trying to provide stats for the new commissioner.

Doesn't really change the point you are replying to.

Sycamore Tree · 08-01-2019 2:46pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Every report would seem to support it. An example from the GSOC report.

There's 1,185 cancelled correctly straight off the bat.

Nonsense. Just a smokescreen.

Overall, penalty points were cancelled 76,600 times between 2009 and 2012 and 442 Garda members had the power to terminate the points.

Without an auditable trail of the rationale behind these decisions, there is no way to evaluate whether or not these cancellations were appropriate and, most importantly, within FCPS guidelines. Illustrating even less accountability, the most frequently occurring reason for authorising a cancellation was simply “Cancelled”, accounting for 72% of all cancellations.

72% of all cancellations gave no valid reason. That's 55,000.

Where is your "most" now?

Some reason were given...

A Garda member had points cancelled “on compassionate grounds associated with animal welfare”. It was later found he was bringing his sick dog to the vet.
One driver travelling at between 221km and 240km per hour had his speeding points terminated.

A journalist driving at 173km in a 120km zone was cautioned.

When the same journalist was detected driving at 152km per hour in a 120km zone the points were cancelled on the grounds they had become distracted by news of a relative’s medical emergency.

Wife of a senior Garda had points cancelled on grounds she was using dictaphone rather than talking into a phone.

When Garda members had speeding points cancelled, no checks were carried out to verify they were on duty and speeding because of a work-related task.
Members of national units, including those targeting organised crime, were cancelling points even though road traffic enforcement formed no part of their duties.

Some Garda members cancelled points so quickly after an offence the points were terminated before the offenders’ received the official notices in the mail.
In those cases, one garda cancelled notices 48 times in three months. Another made 29 cancellations in two months.

The Pulse log-ins of retired senior garda officers were still active and being used by still serving members to cancel points. In some cases the log-ins were for officers retired more than a decade.

Cancellation of FCNs issued to garda members, notably for speeding offences, were undertaken without any checks to establish that the garda member was on duty at the time and that exceeding the speed limit was necessary.

GSOC concluded that “one of the most concerning elements” of its findings was the “confirmation that a significant number of senior gardaí throughout the country frequently breached the garda policy for cancellations”.

Kimbot · 08-01-2019 2:46pm

Discodog wrote: »

Three right now all within Galway City. Is 11am prime time for drunk drivers?

They arent just out checking for drink drivers though, they are looking for Tax/Insurance/NCT aswell. And naturally alot of people would use their cars during the day to get about so there is a far bigger chance of catching them.

Gravelly · 08-01-2019 2:53pm

Same story in my area - there is now a checkpoint outside the local service station every single Saturday morning, and outside the local mart each morning there's a mart on.

Captain Obvious · 08-01-2019 3:04pm

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Nonsense. Just a smokescreen.

72% of all cancellations gave no valid reason. That's 55,000.

Where is your "most" now?

Some reason were given...

You asked for proof that some were valid. I gave it to you. There are plenty more in the GSOC report such as seatbelt fine cancellations due to medical certs. You're also discounting all cases where fines where cancelled and reissued with new details (as in when the registered owner nominate a driver for their car)

Where are you getting "most" from? It was claimed all cancellations were corrupt. I've just shown this to be untrue. Rather than accept this you've doubled down and tried to move the goal posts at the same time.

jmayo · 08-01-2019 3:13pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Checkpoints are given low priority over urgent calls.

Is it time for a name change.
We have no captains in the AGS, perhaps Inspector Obvious

Captain Obvious wrote: »

You asked for proof that some were valid. I gave it to you. There are plenty more in the GSOC report such as seatbelt fine cancellations due to medical certs. You're also discounting all cases where fines where cancelled and reissued with new details (as in when the registered owner nominate a driver for their car)

Where are you getting "most" from? It was claimed all cancellations were corrupt. I've just shown this to be untrue. Rather than accept this you've doubled down and tried to move the goal posts at the same time.

And every single time you and your like hone in on the All as a way of massaging the story.
You watch for that little slip and it is somehow seen as a win for you that you can prove that not every single one fits the negative or that it somehow absolves the huge disproportion quantity that do in fact fit the negative.

You are doing it here, and it is always done in threads about terrorists, threads about certain ethnic groups and crime/anti-social behaviour, etc.

Fair enough all of anything is never true, but by christ that doesn't lessen fact that a huge chunk are true.

yourdeadwright · 08-01-2019 3:23pm

They ramp it up coming up to Christmas and as January goes on it'll ide off again ,
Makes sense as more people are out drinking ,and in January it dies off ,

Captain Obvious · 08-01-2019 3:24pm

jmayo wrote: »

Is it time for a name change.
We have no captains in the AGS, perhaps Inspector Obvious

And every single time you and your like hone in on the All as a way of massaging the story.
You watch for that little slip and it is somehow seen as a win for you that you can prove that not every single one fits the negative or that it somehow absolves the huge disproportion quantity that do in fact fit the negative.

You are doing it here, and it is always done in threads about terrorists, threads about certain ethnic groups and crime/anti-social behaviour, etc.

Fair enough all of anything is never true, but by christ that doesn't lessen fact that a huge chunk are true.

Your assumption of corruption is based on the absence of evidence to the contrary. You think because someone didn't fill in the reason on the cancellation it was automatically corrupt. There is simply no evidence of this. I've given many reasons for legitimate cancellations of tickets but the way you and sycamore go on you'd swear every cancellation was a mte of the Commissioner.

yourdeadwright wrote: »

They ramp it up coming up to Christmas and as January goes on it'll ide off again ,
Makes sense as more people are out drinking ,and in January it dies off ,

It's more likely that they do it to use up the remainder of the overtime budget so that it won't be reduced the following year. A common problem across the public sector.

Sycamore Tree · 08-01-2019 3:27pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

You asked for proof that some were valid. I gave it to you. There are plenty more in the GSOC report such as seatbelt fine cancellations due to medical certs. You're also discounting all cases where fines where cancelled and reissued with new details (as in when the registered owner nominate a driver for their car)

Where are you getting "most" from? It was claimed all cancellations were corrupt. I've just shown this to be untrue. Rather than accept this you've doubled down and tried to move the goal posts at the same time.

Jmayo said in relation to the 442 that cancelled points in 4 years of the GSOC report (Inspector rank or above);

So in other words most of the upper ranks are corrupt.

You then said;

Captain Obvious wrote: »

That's a bit of a leap. That assumes every fine cancelled was cancelled without proper cause which is definitely not the case.

442 is 80+% of senior Gardaí (rank Inspector or above) during the 4 year period.

72% of all cancellations gave no valid reason whatsoever and the other reasons were spurious.

Hence Jmayo is correct. Most...

yourdeadwright · 08-01-2019 3:30pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Your assumption of corruption is based on the absence of evidence to the contrary. You think because someone didn't fill in the reason on the cancellation it was automatically corrupt. There is simply no evidence of this. I've given many reasons for legitimate cancellations of tickets but the way you and sycamore go on you'd swear every cancellation was a mte of the Commissioner.

It's more likely that they do it to use up the remainder of the overtime budget so that it won't be reduced the following year. A common problem across the public sector.

Ye that certainly a reason for the over time budgets ,

I haven't seen one yet and to be honest I'm delighted ,

I'm out a tax a week and it won't be getting paid until next week because off some unforeseen dents in the wallet over Christmas due to a washing machine and the missus car packing up out of the blue ,

Captain Obvious · 08-01-2019 3:47pm

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Jmayo said in relation to the 442 that cancelled points in 4 years of the GSOC report (Inspector rank or above);

You then said;

442 is 80+% of senior Gardaí (rank Inspector or above) during the 4 year period.

72% of all cancellations gave no valid reason whatsoever and the other reasons were spurious.

Hence Jmayo is correct. Most...

First of all, Sycamore, you claimed I said "most". I didn't. Jmayo did. You asked for evidence that "any" of them were not corrupt. The inference there was that all where corrupt is it not?

Secondly, a reason not being stated for the cancellation is not evidence of corruption. This matter was investigated by PAC, GSOC, Internal Affairs, Garda Inspectorate and others. Do any of them support the claim that the majority of cancellations were corrupt?

jmayo · 08-01-2019 4:03pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Your assumption of corruption is based on the absence of evidence to the contrary. You think because someone didn't fill in the reason on the cancellation it was automatically corrupt. There is simply no evidence of this. I've given many reasons for legitimate cancellations of tickets but the way you and sycamore go on you'd swear every cancellation was a mte of the Commissioner.

Did anyone say every single cancellation was corrupt ?

But we do know of specific instances where people had unbelievable speeding offenses wiped.

Are you claiming that those type of ones are the aberration and all the other cancellations, with no reason given, are perfectly valid.
This would be all from the same organisation that falsified millions of breath tests, right ?
The same organisation that tried to destroy whistleblowers?

Now you may be gullible, although I think you are far from it and that is not what you are at here, but the rest of us certainly aren't.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, to most of us it is a feckin duck and not as you claim a great big red heron.

Captain Obvious · 08-01-2019 4:10pm

jmayo wrote: »

Did anyone say every single cancellation was corrupt ?

But we do know of specific instances where people had unbelievable speeding offenses wiped.

Are you claiming that those type of ones are the aberration and all the other cancellations, with no reason given, are perfectly valid.
This would be all from the same organisation that falsified millions of breath tests, right ?
The same organisation that tried to destroy whistleblowers?

Now you may be gullible, although I think you are far from it and that is not what you are at here, but the rest of us certainly aren't.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, to most of us it is a feckin duck and not as you claim a great big red heron.

As I said, Sycamore's demand for evidence of "any" that were not corrupt would infer that all were corrupt in the absence of evidence. I think this is a reasonable understanding of his comment.

I've no doubt that there were cancellations that were not on the level. Unfortunately, none of the reports seem to have given any indication of what proportion this might be. I'd be fairly certain that most were legitimate on the basis of their being so many reasons to legitimately cancel tickets and the majority of cancelled tickets being done through the fixed charge processing office.

James Brown · 08-01-2019 4:15pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Like other posters here ii am wondering why you question this? The gards doing their job

Well we'll let the test results speak on that

tobdom · 08-01-2019 4:18pm

Not to throw the cat among the pigeons.... but wasn't it already quoted earlier in this thread from some news article that it was 442 Gardai that were authorised to cancel the points..... so it could have been a handful of inspectors that authorised the cancellations and not 442 high-ranking gardai

opinionated3 · 08-01-2019 4:23pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Translation : Failed the aptitude test or, more likely, the interview.

Sorry to disappoint but I never applied. The way it looks at the moment new recruits spend a lot of time as part of traffic policing i.e revenue collection. I would be more interested in taking down local druggies and those who insist on anti social behaviour. You know, actual crime fighting ðŸ˜. I do however have one relation who is serving a long time now and one friend who graduated last year. Road policing and prisoner escorts. That is pretty much what he does...

Morebypasses · 08-01-2019 4:29pm

Just obey the law and you have no worries. Simple as. To help I would suggest you don't drink and drive. Don't go over the speed limit. Don't drive alone unless you have full licence. Have a valid NCT cert. Tax and insure the car. Then a check point every 5km should not bother you. Hope this helps!!!

08-01-2019 4:34pm

They are all over Castlebar. Even saw them on Christmas day. Years ago we used to go drink driving to the beach on Christmas day. Anytime the weather is bad, like real bad I know a lot of lads will go for a few pints.
Also some advice - If you are caught between 50 and 80 mg, say nothing and go through the process. DO NOT sign the fixed penalty notice. To do so is an admission of guilt.
The new drink driving laws have not been tested in the courts yet, many thousands of them will get thrown out on new technicalities.
Never admit guilt ....(Do not sign the fixed penalty notice)

Captain Obvious · 08-01-2019 4:37pm

6541 wrote: »

They are all over Castlebar. Even saw them on Christmas day. Years ago we used to go drink driving to the beach on Christmas day. Anytime the weather is bad, like real bad I know a lot of lads will go for a few pints.
Also some advice - If you are caught between 50 and 80 mg, say nothing and go through the process. DO NOT sign the fixed penalty notice. To do so is an admission of guilt.
The new drink driving laws have not been tested in the courts yet, many thousands of them will get thrown out on new technicalities.
Never admit guilt ....(Do not sign the fixed penalty notice)

That's just pure idiocy.

Gravelly · 08-01-2019 4:37pm

Morebypasses wrote: »

Just obey the law and you have no worries. Simple as. To help I would suggest you don't drink and drive. Don't go over the speed limit. Don't drive alone unless you have full licence. Have a valid NCT cert. Tax and insure the car. Then a check point every 5km should not bother you. Hope this helps!!!

I think a check point every 5km would bother even the most pious among us.

08-01-2019 4:47pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

That's just pure idiocy.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/the-irish-times-view-on-the-drink-driving-laws-gaming-the-system-1.3680718

The top legal minds in the land are advising not to sign the fixed penalty notice.

Captain Obvious · 08-01-2019 4:52pm

6541 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/the-irish-times-view-on-the-drink-driving-laws-gaming-the-system-1.3680718

The top legal minds in the land are advising not to sign the fixed penalty notice.

What part of that article are you referring to?

08-01-2019 4:58pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

What part of that article are you referring to?

The part the implies that if you have money you can game the system by going to court and looking for technicalities.
Ask anyone in the legal game, they are drooling at the potential challenges ahead.
Do not sign the fixed penalty notice.

yrreg0850 · 08-01-2019 5:10pm

Rubberchikken wrote: »

a clown of a system where speed vans are flagged up and visible so the arrogant so and sos can slow down and avoid detection. there should also be cameras at traffic lights- might cure the need for breaking red lights that is so prevalent nowadays.

The speed vans themselves are a road hazard. Usually parked on hard margins and unlit at night.
If any motorist parked this way and, was observed by a garda he could be in trouble. Even a breakdown is obliged to show a red triangle.

Morebypasses · 08-01-2019 5:21pm

Gravelly wrote: »

I think a check point every 5km would bother even the most pious among us.

Think you may have missed my point if that is all you took from the post:)

Del2005 · 08-01-2019 5:25pm

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Yep and can you imagine the overtime payments received when faking 2,000,000 alcohol breath tests!

Actually I wonder how much it cost the taxpayer to waste 2,000,000 alcohol breath tests...

It cost the taxpayer nothing to fake the tests. They were caught out when the OPW, or whichever department supplies them, said that the Gardai can't have done so many tests are we only supplied a tiny fraction of the straws There was no overtime either to fake the tests, all they did was add a few zeros to the checkpoint report.

Gravelly · 08-01-2019 5:25pm

Morebypasses wrote: »

Think you may have missed my point if that is all you took from the post:)

If the point was you telling us the bleedin' obvious, I didn't miss it.
Nice horse btw.

Feisar · 08-01-2019 5:30pm

Why isn't there static speed checks that calculate average speed. I left Paris one time, exited a toll booth with a ticket got to point B about five hours later, popped in my ticket to pay the toll and along with the toll a €50 fine

Can the tolled roads along with the M50 not be linked?

oceanman · 08-01-2019 5:36pm

Del2005 wrote: »

There was no overtime either to fake the tests, all they did was add a few zeros to the checkpoint report.

is that all they really did?....jeeze you wonder what all the ho ha was about!

Spook_ie · 10-01-2019 11:16pm

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

No you misunderstood. Deliberately methinks. I posted above that the force was 14,000 strong at the time.

In the 4 years of FCN cancellations, 442 Gardaí were found to have cancelled them.

The force at the time has 14,000 people. I took 4000 as a guesstimate of the number who were eligible to cancel FCNs (Inspector or above)

442/4000 = 11%. The issue is whether 4000 is close to the actual number of Gardaí of rank Inspector or above. It's probably a lot more like 1000 which makes the figure even more shocking (44.2%)

I am wondering whether you are just trying to throw a smokescreen on this. Any comment on the 2,000,000 fake breath tests?

In 2009 it was something like 15000 Garda and sergants and 650 inspector and above

JupiterKid · 11-01-2019 1:25am

The Gardai are really out in force the past week, mainly for drink driving. Ive been stopped - and waved through - at 3 checkpoints the past few days.

Kevin Finnerty · 11-01-2019 1:31am

I've had 2 speed guns and 2 checkpoints since Monday. There's a good change happening, a lot less speeding going on. Myself included.

cournioni · 11-01-2019 4:14am

Question should be, what have they been doing up until this point?

17-01-2019 1:37am

Jim Bob Scratcher wrote: »

Shane Ross

He's getting the blame alright. Even cabinet ministers (including the justice minister himself) are taking a lash now at the gardai for all these extra checkpoints. The morning after ones seem to be taking particular criticism. Wouldn't be surprised to see them reduced in the months to come.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/ministers-criticise-increased-drink-driving-checkpoints-1.3760385

Discodog · 17-01-2019 9:10am

Gravelly wrote: »

If the point was you telling us the bleedin' obvious, I didn't miss it.
Nice horse btw.

Meanwhile the Guards will do nothing about, yet another, horse being hit & killed by a vehicle on the Headford Road in Galway. A certain group can do as they please whilst the Guards will be pulling motorists on the same stretch of road.

Nermal · 17-01-2019 10:11am

Del2005 wrote: »

There was no overtime either to fake the tests, all they did was add a few zeros to the checkpoint report.

They pretend to enforce the law, we pretend to obey.

Shred · 17-01-2019 11:58am

It's great to hear there's been an increase in checkpoints, I'm driving almost 20 years and reckon I've only passed through 10 at most in that time with only one of those being a breathalyzer test (at 2pm on a Sunday afternoon)!
They were talking about this on Newstalk this morning (specifically early morning checkpoints) and the usual bullshít was being trotted out from some listeners in rural areas of "we don't have buses to our pubs like all you spoiled jackeens and have to drive" - fúck off with that, you drive and you don't drink end of, I don't care where you're from. Then, if you're drinking late in the evening/night you're very likely not going to be sober enough to drive early the next morning - it's really very simple and there's absolutely no excuse - this isn't virtue signaling or any of that shíte, it's simply a fact.

The Tetrarch · 17-01-2019 12:13pm

I'm guessing the new Garda boss has switched the squad cars from the takeaways to road checks.

tayto lover · 17-01-2019 12:16pm

Shred wrote: »

It's great to hear there's been an increase in checkpoints, I'm driving almost 20 years and reckon I've only passed through 10 at most in that time with only one of those being a breathalyzer test (at 2pm on a Sunday afternoon)!
They were talking about this on Newstalk this morning (specifically early morning checkpoints) and the usual bullshít was being trotted out from some listeners in rural areas of "we don't have buses to our pubs like all you spoiled jackeens and have to drive" - fúck off with that, you drive and you don't drink end of, I don't care where you're from. Then, if you're drinking late in the evening/night you're very likely not going to be sober enough to drive early the next morning - it's really very simple and there's absolutely no excuse - this isn't virtue signaling or any of that shíte, it's simply a fact.

If you lived in N. Louth you'd be well used to checkpoints.
I went through 5 in less than a week.
No harm either imo. Drink driving kills even if we chanced it with a few drinks when younger. We won't get away now and it's looked down on a lot more these days.

Captain Obvious · 17-01-2019 12:23pm

Discodog wrote: »

Meanwhile the Guards will do nothing about, yet another, horse being hit & killed by a vehicle on the Headford Road in Galway. A certain group can do as they please whilst the Guards will be pulling motorists on the same stretch of road.

I've often seen checkpoints outside of Labre park on the Kylemore road. One of the worst sources of crime in Dublin. And if Gardaí are not doing anything about travellers how do so many of them have so many previous convictions and why do they take up so much of the prison population?

Amirani · 17-01-2019 1:20pm

Really don't understand the criticism of stronger enforcement of motor offences by some TDs - if you're over the alcohol limit or significantly speeding, then you can have no complaint about being penalised. So what if it's the morning after a heavy session and you're driving to mass; you're still a liability on the road and safe road-users and pedestrians should not have to put themselves in unnecessary danger just because you wanted to have a few extra pints.

gandalf · 17-01-2019 1:27pm

Amirani wrote: »

Really don't understand the criticism of stronger enforcement of motor offences by some TDs - if you're over the alcohol limit or significantly speeding, then you can have no complaint about being penalised. So what if it's the morning after a heavy session and you're driving to mass; you're still a liability on the road and safe road-users and pedestrians should not have to put themselves in unnecessary danger just because you wanted to have a few extra pints.

Absolutely I'm delighted to hear they are starting to crack down. The average motorist who doesn't chance drink driving should be delighted to see the increased activity as it makes the road far safer for all of us. I also have a particular bug with people using their phones and this will obviously help with that as well.

The TD's and Ministers should hang their heads in shame for complaining about this. Hopefully this is the influence of the new man in charge of the Gardai and we'll see more visible enforcement going forward.

Dravokivich · 17-01-2019 1:37pm

Feisar wrote: »

Why isn't there static speed checks that calculate average speed. I left Paris one time, exited a toll booth with a ticket got to point B about five hours later, popped in my ticket to pay the toll and along with the toll a €50 fine

Can the tolled roads along with the M50 not be linked?

Set GPS to avoid tolls.

Leave it 2 exits early, enter 2 exits after. Not really going to help much.

And it's only M8, M4 and M1 with a toll operating at present?

tayto lover · 17-01-2019 2:16pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Set GPS to avoid tolls.

Leave it 2 exits early, enter 2 exits after. Not really going to help much.

And it's only M8, M4 and M1 with a toll operating at present?

M3 has two between Dublin and Virginia.

oceanman · 17-01-2019 2:22pm

gandalf wrote: »

Absolutely I'm delighted to hear they are starting to crack down. The average motorist who doesn't chance drink driving should be delighted to see the increased activity as it makes the road far safer for all of us. I also have a particular bug with people using their phones and this will obviously help with that as well.

The TD's and Ministers should hang their heads in shame for complaining about this. Hopefully this is the influence of the new man in charge of the Gardai and we'll see more visible enforcement going forward.

shake up will probably only last a few weeks and the things will be back to normal. new broom and all that..

Who s behind the Gardai road checks?

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