Monsanto ruled to have caused man’s cancer

s7ryf3925pivug · 11-08-2018 12:40am #1

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/10/monsanto-trial-cancer-dewayne-johnson-ruling?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Ruling that roundup exposure caused blood cell cancer in a groundskeeper. Also that the company acted with malice to suppress evidence of carcinogenicity.

Concerns about roundup tend to get dismissed as hippie dippy nonsense, but the concerns are legitimate and very significant.

Guy:Incognito · 11-08-2018 12:49am

Daniella Cold Dude wrote: »

Concerns about roundup tend to get dismissed as hippie dippy nonsense, but the concerns are legitimate and very significant.

I'd imagine most are referring to domestic use. I'd have thought anyone using any chemical in a commercial environment would be using ppe. It says he was using it for hours at a time. Personally, if I was spraying anything stronger than water for hours at a time I'd want to be wearing a protective mask at the very least, but probably a suit of some kind too.

s7ryf3925pivug · 11-08-2018 6:55am

It's the tip of the iceberg. What might be of most interest is that they were found to have aggressively suppressed evidence against them.

This paper outlines numerous health concerns:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4392553/

This paper discusses evudence that it is causing colony collapse disorder in bees:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25063858/

11-08-2018 6:59am

Daniella Cold Dude wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/10/monsanto-trial-cancer-dewayne-johnson-ruling?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Ruling that roundup exposure caused blood cell cancer in a groundskeeper. Also that the company acted with malice to suppress evidence of carcinogenicity.

Concerns about roundup tend to get dismissed as hippie dippy nonsense, but the concerns are legitimate and very significant.

Most of the "concerns" we hear people going on about are GMO is bad and They copyright seeds, both of which I would consider hippy dippy nonsense.

Wanderer78 · 11-08-2018 7:16am

Deleted User wrote:

Most of the "concerns" we hear people going on about are GMO is bad and They copyright seeds, both of which I would consider hippy dippy nonsense.

The control of the means of production of our foods should be a concern for all, if a small network of large corporations control this, they can effectively monopolise and control all aspects of this critical human need, and possibly use it to manipulate for their own gains.

This could spell the end of glyphosate, who d sell it after this

Malayalam · 11-08-2018 7:20am

Good news. The ruination of that company cannot come too soon.

Deleted User wrote: »

Most of the "concerns" we hear people going on about are GMO is bad and They copyright seeds, both of which I would consider hippy dippy nonsense.

They do patent seeds. https://monsanto.com/company/media/statements/saving-seeds/

I am on the fence about GMO (avoid it if I can) but regardless of mine or anyone elses ''opinions'' on it we won't really know for sure about long term effects until we get to the long term. And by then even if we have all grown extra ears due to GMO some gigantic corporations will have made unimaginable amounts of money and will somehow pay a trivial percentage for damages caused. :rolleyes:

s7ryf3925pivug · 11-08-2018 7:34am

Genetic modification can be positive or negative. Modifying vegetables to be more nutritious is usually good. Modifying crops to survive being doused in Roundup is bad because there are serious concerns about using or consuming Roundup.

Wanderer78 · 11-08-2018 7:34am

Malayalam wrote:

Good news. The ruination of that company cannot come too soon.

Oh I wouldn't get too excited about Monsanto going down, such large corporations are almost invincible, they ll be grand

Bigus · 11-08-2018 7:35am

I'd like to stick this fella Scot in a Round Up misted room for 5 days a week and see if he didn't change his tune rather quickly.

"Scott Partridge, the vice-president of Monsanto, released a statement after the verdict asserting that “glyphosate does not cause cancer, and did not cause Mr Johnson’s cancer”, adding: “We will appeal this decision and continue to vigorously defend this product, which has a 40-year history of safe use and continues to be a vital, effective, and safe tool for farmers and others.”

twinytwo · 11-08-2018 7:36am

Deleted User wrote: »

Most of the "concerns" we hear people going on about are GMO is bad and They copyright seeds, both of which I would consider hippy dippy nonsense.

They have said multiple times that there should be a patient on every seed available.

My main issue with them, is they do not want you to have a choice. so they lead the charge in not have GMO labeling on foods etc

11-08-2018 7:40am

Daniella Cold Dude wrote: »

It's the tip of the iceberg. What might be of most interest is that they were found to have aggressively suppressed evidence against them.

This paper outlines numerous health concerns:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4392553/

This paper discusses evudence that it is causing colony collapse disorder in bees:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25063858/

Very much so. I wonder to what extent their products, particularly the one in question, are used in Ireland. Monsanto has an Irish office, in Dunshaughlin, Co. Meath, so it's clearly doing business here.

Malayalam · 11-08-2018 7:41am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Oh I wouldn't get too excited about Monsanto going down, such large corporations are almost invincible, they ll be grand

Ah go on, I'll get a little bit excited. This guy has a ruling of 289 million dollars against Monsanto, there are thousands of similar cases pending and the scientific evidence about glyphosate is beginning to stack up. Mind you, nothing could recompense for the harm Monsanto and their ilk have caused.

Wanderer78 · 11-08-2018 7:44am

Deleted User wrote:

, so it's clearly doing business here.

'doing business', an interesting term, or is it a fact of, 'just resting in our Irish accounts'!

Malayalam · 11-08-2018 7:44am

Deleted User wrote: »

Very much so. I wonder to what extent their products, particularly the one in question, are used in Ireland. Monsanto has an Irish office, in Dunshaughlin, Co. Meath, so it's clearly doing business here.

Our local village store - you know the old fashioned food (aka rashers) and agri-products combination shop - stacks Roundup on the shelves in pride of place. Gobshytes.

Wanderer78 · 11-08-2018 7:46am

Malayalam wrote:

Ah go on, I'll get a little bit excited. This guy has a ruling of 289 million dollars against Monsanto, there are thousands of similar cases pending and the scientific evidence about glyphosate is beginning to stack up. Mind you, nothing could recompense for the harm Monsanto and their ilk have caused.

Oh I wouldn't get overly excited, the weird and wonderful world of corporations seems to be untouchable at the moment

Malayalam · 11-08-2018 7:47am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Oh I wouldn't get overly excited, the weird and wonderful world of corporations seems to be untouchable at the moment

Stahp trying to suppress my excitement, Wanderer!

heebusjeebus · 11-08-2018 7:50am

Malayalam wrote: »

Our local village store - you know the old fashioned food (aka rashers) and agri-products combination shop - stacks Roundup on the shelves in pride of place. Gobshytes.

It's not illegal to sell though.
I was pulling weeds out the front of our house one day and a fella who said he was a gardner (not sure if professionally or as a hobby) advised me to use roundup on the leaves of the weeds.
I would be very hesitant as my mother spends hours out in her garden every day and has never touched the stuff.

Malayalam · 11-08-2018 7:56am

heebusjeebus wrote: »

It's not illegal to sell though.
I was pulling weeds out the front of our house one day and a fella who said he was a gardner (not sure if professionally or as a hobby) advised me to use roundup on the leaves of the weeds.
I would be very hesitant as my mother spends hours out in her garden every day and has never touched the stuff.

Oh I know it's not illegal, it's just idiotic. I am a gardener, and I would never let any chemicals near my place. Hoe or weed out what you don't want, and learn to love the weeds you cannot manage to control. Better than breathing in or absorbing via skin all kinds of horrible stuff. People round here use it outside their gates to make the place look nice and tidy - yeah, as if those banks of horrid yellow grasses and weeds look nicer than lovely meadowsweet and rosebay willowherb and dandelions! Silly billys.

Annasopra · 11-08-2018 9:36am

Deleted User wrote: »

Most of the "concerns" we hear people going on about are GMO is bad and They copyright seeds, both of which I would consider hippy dippy nonsense.

Wha? This is not about gmo?

Mountainsandh · 11-08-2018 9:47am

Malayalam wrote: »

Oh I know it's not illegal, it's just idiotic. I am a gardener, and I would never let any chemicals near my place. Hoe or weed out what you don't want, and learn to love the weeds you cannot manage to control. Better than breathing in or absorbing via skin all kinds of horrible stuff. People round here use it outside their gates to make the place look nice and tidy - yeah, as if those banks of horrid yellow grasses and weeds look nicer than lovely meadowsweet and rosebay willowherb and dandelions! Silly billys.

I've always wondered about that, since I moved to Ireland. Who thinks yellow burnt road sides are nicer than green roadsides ?

They do that by the creamery crossroad down our road. It's a big crossroad, the grass or weeds in question are not a visibility issue, but they are invariably sprayed each year.
When there is a real visibility issue they tend to lift the accumulated soil off the roadsides with a digger, and trim hedges, so the spraying serves no other purpose than...
than what exactly ?

11-08-2018 10:05am

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Wha? This is not about gmo?

I know. I was responding to the OP.

joeysoap · 11-08-2018 10:12am

Banned or restricted in a few countries

https://www.baumhedlundlaw.com/toxic-tort-law/monsanto-roundup-lawsuit/where-is-glyphosate-banned/

Discodog · 11-08-2018 10:17am

I have used Roundup professionally for 30 years & I will continue to do so.

rgace · 11-08-2018 10:26am

Discodog wrote: »

I have used Roundup professionally for 30 years & I will continue to do so.

Good man.

Discodog · 11-08-2018 10:29am

rgace wrote: »

Good man.

I did my degree in environmental science & then worked in pesticide development. It's not a uneducated decision.

Malayalam · 11-08-2018 10:43am

Discodog wrote: »

I did my degree in environmental science & then worked in pesticide development. It's not a uneducated decision.

Why do you think the EU might have decided to renew its license for 5 years rather than 15? Why have so many European countries plus Russia restricted or banned it? You may yet find yourself on the wrong side. Time will tell. Personally I can think of very few advantages to the widespread use of synthetic chemicals especially where food is concerned

Wanderer78 · 11-08-2018 11:17am

Malayalam wrote:

Why do you think the EU might have decided to renew its license for 5 years rather than 15? Why have so many European countries plus Russia restricted or banned it? You may yet find yourself on the wrong side. Time will tell. Personally I can think of very few advantages to the widespread use of synthetic chemicals especially where food is concerned

Concepts such as 'no tillage' are also an interesting development in our food production

listermint · 11-08-2018 11:22am

Malayalam wrote: »

Why do you think the EU might have decided to renew its license for 5 years rather than 15? Why have so many European countries plus Russia restricted or banned it? You may yet find yourself on the wrong side. Time will tell. Personally I can think of very few advantages to the widespread use of synthetic chemicals especially where food is concerned

But using some on your driveway is hardly a problem.

If your free you can come round and d-weed mine its about 50 Meteres Squared of stone.

Malayalam · 11-08-2018 11:31am

listermint wrote: »

But using some on your driveway is hardly a problem.

If your free you can come round and d-weed mine its about 50 Meteres Squared of stone.

Your driveway, your problem, Listermint

I spend enough time hoeing the weeds out of my own gravel drive. A little bit of weeding every day or so is quite pleasant exercise and it works to the extent I require. There is nothing pleasant about glyphosate. https://jech.bmj.com/content/71/6/613

Fakediamond · 11-08-2018 11:33am

Deleted User wrote: »

Most of the "concerns" we hear people going on about are GMO is bad and They copyright seeds, both of which I would consider hippy dippy nonsense.

I’m interested to know why you would say concerns are “hippy dippy” nonsense?

listermint · 11-08-2018 11:34am

Malayalam wrote: »

Your driveway, your problem, Listermint I spend enough time hoeing the weeds out of my own gravel drive. A little bit of weeding every day or so is quite pleasant exercise and it works to the extent I require. There is nothing pleasant about glyphosate. https://jech.bmj.com/content/71/6/613

Ah come on, i can make tea.

Malayalam · 11-08-2018 11:36am

listermint wrote: »

Ah come on, i can make tea.

I don't drink tea

You blew it. haha

listermint · 11-08-2018 11:40am

Malayalam wrote: »

I don't drink tea You blew it. haha

ive exposed you as a non gardener so :eek:

Malayalam · 11-08-2018 11:42am

listermint wrote: »

ive exposed you as a non gardener so :eek:

Noooooo

I drink tea made from the mint and lemon balm I grows. Glyphosate free!! Unfortunately, to my great dismay, I'm caffeine-intolerant

JupiterKid · 11-08-2018 11:58am

This is a very welcome development. It sends a clear signal to big corporations that they can no longer act with total impunity against the public interest for their own gain.

Next, I want to see action taken against Searle for their peddling of the poison that is the artificial sweetener Aspartame.

Wanderer78 · 11-08-2018 12:03pm

JupiterKid wrote:

This is a very welcome development. It sends a clear signal to big corporations that they can no longer act with total impunity against the public interest for their own gain.

Again, I wouldn't get overly excited, we haven't even begun to deconstruct the power of these juggernauts, it's an interesting turn though

freedominacup · 11-08-2018 12:15pm

Out of interest how common do posters think products containing glyphosate are? I was listening to a radio programme a few months ago when they had their regular gardening expert on. Question came in about controlling weeds in some area of a garden. Expert recommended a product with a lovely innocent sounding name. Quick Google search. Roundup. Different manufacturer, totally different product name but 100% roundup. It's been off licence for a generation. Anyone with the right production facilities can make it. Very cheap to manufacture apparently, great margins in producing it. It's in a lot of garden weedkillers. If it was as deadly as some would have you believe the casualty rate would be massive.

If I had to operate a sprayer day in day out but could pick the product I had to use it would be glyphosate. Apparently the guy in question here had little to no ppe.

Discodog · 11-08-2018 12:23pm

Fakediamond wrote: »

I’m interested to know why you would say concerns are “hippy dippy” nonsense?

Because these are often the "Organic" people who use Vinegar, salt etc as alternatives because they see them as "natural" products & ignore the toxicity.

Discodog · 11-08-2018 12:25pm

Malayalam wrote: »

Your driveway, your problem, Listermint I spend enough time hoeing the weeds out of my own gravel drive. A little bit of weeding every day or so is quite pleasant exercise and it works to the extent I require. There is nothing pleasant about glyphosate. https://jech.bmj.com/content/71/6/613

Many of my clients use me because they are not able to spend hours hoeing. Have you tried hoeing a field ?

Malayalam · 11-08-2018 12:26pm

freedominacup wrote: »

Out of interest how common do posters think products containing glyphosate are? I was listening to a radio programme a few months ago when they had their regular gardening expert on. Question came in about controlling weeds in some area of a garden. Expert recommended a product with a lovely innocent sounding name. Quick Google search. Roundup. Different manufacturer, totally different product name but 100% roundup. It's been off licence for a generation. Anyone with the right production facilities can make it. Very cheap to manufacture apparently, great margins in producing it. It's in a lot of garden weedkillers. If it was as deadly as some would have you believe the casualty rate would be massive.

If I had to operate a sprayer day in day out but could pick the product I had to use it would be glyphosate. Apparently the guy in question here had little to no ppe.

I linked previously to an article by scientists and researchers. Use of glyphosate has increased 100 fold (not percent, but times) between 1974 and 2014. That's how increasingly common it is. And there is significant research showing detrimental effects, and accumulations in the body, for example levels in breast milk are in certain cases showing to be hundreds of times more than permissable levels for water. There has not been enough research done on its effects in the human body and current ''safety'' standards are based on outdated research. It might be worth googling it, reading from conflicting reports and seeing what you think.

Discodog · 11-08-2018 12:29pm

Malayalam wrote: »

I linked previously to an article by scientists and researchers. Use of glyphosate has increased 100 fold (not percent, but times) between 1974 and 2014. That's how increasingly common it is. And there is significant research showing detrimental effects, and accumulations in the body, for example levels in breast milk are in certain cases showing to be hundreds of times more than permissable levels for water. There has not been enough research done on its effects in the human body and current ''safety'' standards are based on outdated research. It might be worth googling it, reading from conflicting reports and seeing what you think.

Hugely conflicting. You could apply the same logic to thousands of products - plastics being the latest one.

Malayalam · 11-08-2018 12:35pm

Discodog wrote: »

Hugely conflicting. You could apply the same logic to thousands of products - plastics being the latest one.

Yes, and the science gradually comes to the conclusion that there are levels of toxicity in many modern products that are implicated in adverse human health. Including plastics. I guess for some people it then becomes a cost benefit analysis type thing - we need more food, so lets spray the competing weeds and if a certain percentage of people accumulate the chemical and get cancer or other diseases it is collateral damage. I just cannot bring myself to think in that fashion.

and yes, I have hoed fields. Food can be produced organically, and with sufficient labour in sufficient quantity to provide our needs - it's just no one wants to pay the price of that, nor is the work appreciated as valid. Pity, because sitting on one's arse in an office instead is not all that happy making.

Discodog · 11-08-2018 12:41pm

Malayalam wrote: »

Yes, and the science gradually comes to the conclusion that there are levels of toxicity in many modern products that are implicated in adverse human health. Including plastics. I guess for some people it then becomes a cost benefit analysis type thing - we need more food, so lets spray the competing weeds and if a certain percentage of people accumulate the chemical and get cancer or other diseases it is collateral damage. I just cannot bring myself to think in that fashion.

and yes, I have hoed fields. Food can be produced organically, and with sufficient labour in sufficient quantity to provide our needs - it's just no one wants to pay the price of that, nor is the work appreciated as valid. Pity, because sitting on one's arse in an office instead is not all that happy making.

So you would prefer to see people starve ?

The cost would be astronomic & millions wouldn't be able to afford it.

It is always a risk/benefit choice. I use Roundup on weeds not crops. My concern is for domestic pets & wildlife for which Roundup is a reasonable choice.

Discodog · 11-08-2018 12:42pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Concepts such as 'no tillage' are also an interesting development in our food production

Direct drilling has been around for 50 years. It's nothing new.

Malayalam · 11-08-2018 12:46pm

Discodog wrote: »

So you would prefer to see people starve ?

The cost would be astronomic & millions wouldn't be able to afford it.

It is always a risk/benefit choice. I use Roundup on weeds not crops. My concern is for domestic pets & wildlife for which Roundup is a reasonable choice.

I absolutely never said that re people starving.

But carry on for the moment with your Round Up, your choice. I guarantee there will come a day when the research scientists are not so deep in the pockets of the corporations that manufacture it and governments will realise that the cost of damage claims outweighs the money earned. From that day you will not be permitted to use it because of the harm it does to human health. Guaranteed.

my3cents · 11-08-2018 12:47pm

I haven't read to much about the case yet but Roundup isn't just the chemical glyphosate.

Roundup may or may not have caused cancer but we have no idea what part of Roundups makeup actually caused anything.

Other than glyphosate and water the other ingredients are washing up liquid type chemicals that make the glyphosate stick to the leaf and dissolve and wax on the leaf surface allowing the glyphosate to get to work. Who is to say that these adjuvants aren't worse than the glyphosate.

Malayalam · 11-08-2018 12:52pm

my3cents wrote: »

I haven't read to much about the case yet but Roundup isn't just the chemical glyphosate.

Roundup may or may not have caused cancer but we have no idea what part of Roundups makeup actually caused anything.

Other than glyphosate and water the other ingredients are washing up liquid type chemicals that make the glyphosate stick to the leaf and dissolve and wax on the leaf surface allowing the glyphosate to get to work. Who is to say that these adjuvants aren't worse than the glyphosate.

And if you did actually do a bit of reading around it you might find that the adjuvants are also being considered as potentially harmful.

I just don't get the ''ach sure its just a bit of oul weedkiller'' mentality. Don't get it at all. It's a blind acceptance, people spray such an unbelievable amount of utter crap on themselves, their environments, their gardens, and never actually stop and think seriously what the hell is this stuff?

Wanderer78 · 11-08-2018 12:53pm

Discodog wrote: »

Direct drilling has been around for 50 years. It's nothing new.

that could very well be the case, but it does look like a lot of research is currently going into this concept, ive very little understanding of it, but it looks very interesting. i am convinced many of our modern agricultural practices are in fact very destructive for our planet and potentially dangerous for us, the destruction of our soil being one such issue due to these practices.

Discodog · 11-08-2018 12:53pm

Malayalam wrote: »

I absolutely never said that re people starving.

But carry on for the moment with your Round Up, your choice. I guarantee there will come a day when the research scientists are not so deep in the pockets of the corporations that manufacture it and governments will realise that the cost of damage claims outweighs the money earned. From that day you will not be permitted to use it because of the harm it does to human health. Guaranteed.

The damages claim in this case was classic California. They could of given him an appropriate amount & the rest to the poor. I would of thought his employers would be liable as, according to his testimony, "it involved him spraying herbicide to control weeds on school grounds, sometimes for several hours a day." He must of been using gallons of the stuff. I get through 5 litres a week, of diluted Roundup, maximum. What protection was he given to wear & what training ?

Malayalam · 11-08-2018 1:00pm

Discodog wrote: »

The damages claim in this case was classic California. They could of given him an appropriate amount & the rest to the poor. I would of thought his employers would be liable as, according to his testimony, "it involved him spraying herbicide to control weeds on school grounds, sometimes for several hours a day." He must of been using gallons of the stuff. I get through 5 litres a week, of diluted Roundup, maximum. What protection was he given to wear & what training ?

I guess he could have gone to the employers in litigation, but maybe it was a test case direct at the manufacturers. And legally manufacturers are liable if they produce and distribute dangerous products. And the damages awarded would also have been exemplary or punitive, exactly because of the underlying implication that a vast corporation has a huge duty of care. He won't see much if any of the cash - that is not the point. The point is to hold corporations accountable for negligence.

Discodog · 11-08-2018 1:01pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

that could very well be the case, but it does look like a lot of research is currently going into this concept, ive very little understanding of it, but it looks very interesting. i am convinced many of our modern agricultural practices are in fact very destructive for our planet and potentially dangerous for us, the destruction of our soil being one such issue due to these practices.

This was one of my first research projects. Think about it. We see ploughing as a good thing but soil has very structured layers & each has it's own unique fauna. Everything is living happily & then suddenly the top layer is buried & the bottom layer exposed to air.

We sprayed test plots with huge quantities of Paraquat over many years. These areas had a far greater number & diversity of soil fauna than the ploughed plots. Then factor in the pollution, energy use, cost, equipment to plough.

There are obvious other factors like compaction, drainage etc but it's not a simple tillage good, chemicals bad argument.

Monsanto ruled to have caused man’s cancer

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