Scottish independence

Faye McAleer · 18-07-2019 8:35pm #1

Would you be in support of a politico-economic union and formal international intergovernmental cooperation between the three Gaelic nations, (united) Ireland, (independent) Scotland and the Isle of Man similar to Benelux?

The Benelux cooperation has served as a model for the EU, and is basically an EU lite, comprising a customs union and a parliament as well as shared resources.

This could work between the three Gaelic nations and when we get reunification and the Scottish get independence, I think it is something good that should be created.

What do you think?

Mr.Nice Guy · 18-07-2019 10:14pm

The thought has occurred to me that if Scotland were to achieve independence then such a model involving the ROI and Scotland might be a good way to facilitate Irish reunification in subsequent years.

Unionists would surely be more likely to accept a reunified Ireland if it were to involve being in a union with Scotland. It would be a case of both nationalists and unionists gaining: the former gets an all-Ireland model, the latter gets to remain in a union with the UK nation it is closest to historically and geographically. It might even provide an avenue for Wales to survive on its own, should it decide it doesn't want to be part of the recent wave of English nationalist thinking.

It's all very much theoretical as it stands, however, and it remains to be seen whether Scotland - assuming it votes for independence - would welcome becoming involved right away in another union.

blanch152 · 18-07-2019 10:54pm

Faye McAleer wrote: »

Would you be in support of a politico-economic union and formal international intergovernmental cooperation between the three Gaelic nations, (united) Ireland, (independent) Scotland and the Isle of Man similar to Benelux?

The Benelux cooperation has served as a model for the EU, and is basically an EU lite, comprising a customs union and a parliament as well as shared resources.

This could work between the three Gaelic nations and when we get reunification and the Scottish get independence, I think it is something good that should be created.

What do you think?

Other than the romantic notion, why?

What good would it achieve?

Peregrinus · 19-07-2019 2:59am

Well, on a technical issue, I don't see that it's viable unless the Isle of Man (a) become an independent sovereign country, and (b) joins the EU. At the moment it's neither an independent country nor in the EU.

But forget Man; what about Hiberno-Scottish regional co-operation, given an independent Scotland within the EU?

There's already, of course, a high degree of co-operation simply by virtue of being EU members. Within the EU, there are already examples of closer regional co-operation, some formally constitutuded, like Benelux, and some less formally, like the New Hanseatic League. I don't think the cultural affinities between Scotland and Ireland, like their shared Gaelic heritage, really provide a sound foundation for the kind of close regional co-operation and alignment that we see in Benelux, but they do have other things in common like their geographic location on the NW fringe of the Union, their status as small-to-mid-sized member states, and social and economic organisation heavily influenced by British traditions and institutions. But I think that, rather than have a two-state group, they are more likely to want to both join a larger group of states that share at least some of these characteristics. Like the New Hanseatic League, in fact (of which Ireland is already a member). These groups function largely to co-ordinate policy, and to seek to influence policy at an EU level, rather than to secure a deeper level of integration between the members than is provided simply by EU membership (which is what Benelux does).

Jim2007 · 19-07-2019 11:57am

Faye McAleer wrote: »

What do you think?

I think you need to come up with an awful lot more that just a nice idea, to be taken seriously....

For instance Ireland is a member of the Euro Group and as a result it and Germany get to trade in what to us is an under valued currency at no expense to our exchequer. Now to put that into perspective, The Swiss National Bank (SNB) tried to peg the Franc to the Euro and in the process they hosed up the deficit of the 7 biggest Euro group economies before the had to abort the exercise... So if we were to take the idea seriously then we'd need to require the others to join the EU and the Euro group and that is just for starters.

johnnyskeleton · 19-07-2019 12:13pm

Faye McAleer wrote: »

Would you be in support of a politico-economic union and formal international intergovernmental cooperation between the three Gaelic nations, (united) Ireland, (independent) Scotland and the Isle of Man similar to Benelux?

We currently do have formal political and economic union with Scotland as part of the E.U. I would be happy to see Mann become a full independent nation and join the EU but unfortunately it is probably not big enough and they probably would not want to join the EU.

The Benelux cooperation has served as a model for the EU, and is basically an EU lite, comprising a customs union and a parliament as well as shared resources.

Yes and there was a logical need for that, them having been invaded several times in the 30 odd years before its formation. I could see Ireland trying to form better relations with the other small Western EU states, particularly Denmark, who I would consider to be the closest to Ireland in terms of Economics, attitude towards the EU and general cutulture, once the UK leaves the EU.

This could work between the three Gaelic nations and when we get reunification and the Scottish get independence, I think it is something good that should be created.

What do you think?

I dunno. Despite the cultural similarities between Irish and Scottish people, neither nation feels any particular affinity towards the other. Scottish people, despite all issues with Scottish Independence, still feel more closely aligned to England and Wales than they do to Ireland.

In the event of a Brexit followed by Scottish Independence and Scotland joining the EU, I can see them being a good ally to Ireland in some areas, but also a competitor in others.

Faye McAleer · 19-07-2019 5:14pm

Scotland would also need to take back Berwick upon Tweed should it become independent.

joe40 · 19-07-2019 5:28pm

Scotland is still very divided according to sectarian lines, similar to Northern Ireland. The sort of secterianism the republic has largely left behind is still alive and well in Scotland.
Uniionist supporting scots would have zero affinity with Ireland. All the Gaelic stuff would mean very little.

jm08 · 19-07-2019 5:32pm

No. You can't trust the Scots. They voted for France to host the Rugby World Cup because they would get more money out of France. They sold out to BT and dumped the IRFU when there was the fight over the Heineken Cup and a few weeks ago they tried to expel Irish fishermen from around Rockall even though Ireland has a fishing quota for there.

Just remember what Paisley, Arlene & Co's heritage is!

Oh, and unlike England, during the Troubles (when Ireland had a good rugby team) they refused to play in Dublin.

Faye McAleer · 19-07-2019 8:18pm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

We currently do have formal political and economic union with Scotland as part of the E.U. I would be happy to see Mann become a full independent nation and join the EU but unfortunately it is probably not big enough and they probably would not want to join the EU.

Yes and there was a logical need for that, them having been invaded several times in the 30 odd years before its formation. I could see Ireland trying to form better relations with the other small Western EU states, particularly Denmark, who I would consider to be the closest to Ireland in terms of Economics, attitude towards the EU and general cutulture, once the UK leaves the EU.

I dunno. Despite the cultural similarities between Irish and Scottish people, neither nation feels any particular affinity towards the other. Scottish people, despite all issues with Scottish Independence, still feel more closely aligned to England and Wales than they do to Ireland.

In the event of a Brexit followed by Scottish Independence and Scotland joining the EU, I can see them being a good ally to Ireland in some areas, but also a competitor in others.

Again, I point to the success of Beneulux. Why couldn't that be replicated with an Ireland, Scottish and Manx equivalent?

Jim2007 · 19-07-2019 10:01pm

Faye McAleer wrote: »

Again, I point to the success of Beneulux. Why couldn't that be replicated with an Ireland, Scottish and Manx equivalent?

You need to address the issues raised.... and you need to point out what success you are talking about in respect of the Benelux - in the 50s it was a very useful tool, but today in the context of the EU it is of little value and is more often used to denote a geographic region rather than anything else.

So far all you have come up with is a have baked idea with little substance other than 'would't it be a great idea'....

Faye McAleer · 19-07-2019 11:06pm

The requirements to be part of this Gaelic Union should be:

1. Be in the EU and preferably Eurozone.
2. Have a democratically elected head of state, i.e ditch the Queen.

Peregrinus · 22-07-2019 2:01am

Faye McAleer wrote: »

The requirements to be part of this Gaelic Union should be:

1. Be in the EU and preferably Eurozone.
2. Have a democratically elected head of state, i.e ditch the Queen.

Well, I would point out that an awful lot of non-Gaelic countries could tick those boxes.

And I'm not seeing the need for the second requirement. Benelux, on which the Gaelic Union is proposed to be modelled, gets on fine without it.

22-07-2019 8:25am

Faye McAleer wrote: »

The requirements to be part of this Gaelic Union should be:

1. Be in the EU and preferably Eurozone.
2. Have a democratically elected head of state, i.e ditch the Queen.

Why not use Sterling and have the Queen as head of state?

Hobosan · 22-07-2019 8:45am

Assuming the success of the Union, I think Italy would make a great member next.

MrMusician18 · 22-07-2019 8:58am

Ireland is already party of a northern European alliance within the EU. The name of it escapes me at the moment.

It doesn't get the same attention as the visegrad alliance since it's not led by a right wing awkward squad.

22-07-2019 2:10pm

The benefits of Benelux have been mostly subsumed into the EU and expanded to other countries.

I don't see the economic links between Ireland and Scotland that make this desirable. We are very different countries and economies.

Any further integration should be via the EU.

There is a British-Irish council for talking about mutual stuff.

Is there any desire in Scotland for this?
It would take a while for an independent Scotland to establish itself in the world and find its own feet.

johnnyskeleton · 22-07-2019 3:21pm

Mod note:

Please note that the OP has been sitebanned. The topic can still be discussed if people wish, but the OP won't be replying.

briany · 24-07-2019 4:10pm

It's an interesting idea, but I don't know how it would work in practice. We can say on a casual basis that Irish and Scottish people are very similar, but when it comes to forming a political union, any cultural differences would be immediately exacerbated. You'd potentially have the Irish and Highland Scots on one side, with Lowland Scots and Northern Irish on the other, with everyone arguing about where the parliament building should be.

26-07-2019 4:26pm

In what ways?
Plenty have migrated between both countries but we have very different histories.
The same could be said of us and the UK. It wouldn't be a good idea to join them.

We should be very friendly and neighbourly but that doesnt extend to a political union.

Peregrinus · 27-07-2019 1:38am

The question really comes down to this: beyond the high degree of integration we would have as member states of the EU, what further degree of integration is appropriate or desirable between Scotland and Ireland specifically? If there isn't a clear answer to this, there doesn't seem to be any case for a Gaelic Union.

McGiver · 04-08-2019 10:06am

I think an international organisation similar to the Nordic Council or Visegrad Group would be more suitable then an actual union.

04-08-2019 10:17am

An extremely conservative sectarian country? No thanks.

McGiver · 04-08-2019 5:02pm

Deleted User wrote: »

An extremely conservative sectarian country? No thanks.

Which one?

BarryD2 · 04-08-2019 5:06pm

Faye McAleer wrote: »

Would you be in support of a politico-economic union and formal international intergovernmental cooperation between the three Gaelic nations, (united) Ireland, (independent) Scotland and the Isle of Man similar to Benelux?

The Benelux cooperation has served as a model for the EU, and is basically an EU lite, comprising a customs union and a parliament as well as shared resources.

This could work between the three Gaelic nations and when we get reunification and the Scottish get independence, I think it is something good that should be created.

What do you think?

What about the Brits? - the Celts were all over the place.

road_high · 04-08-2019 11:34pm

We’re doing great on our own within the EU and very connected to the wider world. Why on earth would we want to be getting involved with the Scots and all their love/hate baggage with England? I feel a very faint affinity with Scotland but certainly not part of a Union. They have decades and decades of growing up to do as a nation I think. Can’t even decide if they want to be a real country yet

road_high · 04-08-2019 11:40pm

Faye McAleer wrote: »

Would you be in support of a politico-economic union and formal international intergovernmental cooperation between the three Gaelic nations, (united) Ireland, (independent) Scotland and the Isle of Man similar to Benelux?

The Benelux cooperation has served as a model for the EU, and is basically an EU lite, comprising a customs union and a parliament as well as shared resources.

This could work between the three Gaelic nations and when we get reunification and the Scottish get independence, I think it is something good that should be created.

What do you think?

Intrigued to know what the “Benelux” cooperation is because apart from being good neighbors I’m not aware Belgium, Holland and Luxembourg share any formal political union (outside of EU membership) ?

Peregrinus · 05-08-2019 1:53am

road_high wrote: »

Intrigued to know what the “Benelux” cooperation is because apart from being good neighbors I’m not aware Belgium, Holland and Luxembourg share any formal political union (outside of EU membership) ?

They certainly do. Benelux isn't just a convenient shorthand for Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg; it's a formal political institution established by treaty, with its own Committee of Ministers, Council, General Secretariat, InterParliamentary Consultative Council and Court of Justice.

It predates the EU and in many respects was a forerunner to it - for example, the Benelux Countries were in a customs union with one another before the European Customs Union was established. A lot of what was first done by Benelux has since been superseded by the EU doing the same thing (like the customs union). But Benelux is always opening up new areas of co-operation with the result that the Benelux countries tend to be ahead of the rest of the EU in intergovernmental co-operation and social/administrative investigation. For example, they have just put in place arrangements allowing the Benelux police forces to conduct investigations in one another's jurisdictions.

McGiver · 05-08-2019 9:31am

Peregrinus wrote:

They certainly do. Benelux isn't just a convenient shorthand for Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg; it's a formal political institution established by treaty, with its own Committee of Ministers, Council, General Secretariat, InterParliamentary Consultative Council and Court of Justice.

Nordic Council is similar, but they don't go that far. They coordinate policy etc.

imme · 21-08-2019 5:33pm

What about poor auld Rockall?

Why should the people of Rockall be denied the indisputable benefits that a Celtic union would bring.

No, OP, sorry for being silly for a minute, Ireland should not seek to form some sort of Celtic Benelux.

You weren't a speech writer for Alex Salmond by any chance were you?

As leader of the SNP he spoke about an "arc of prosperity" encompassing Ireland, Iceland and Norway.
I think he forgot about Rockall too.

Why do people always forget about Rockall.

LoughNeagh2017 · 28-08-2019 7:12pm

I don't want anything to do with Scotland, a grotesque place.

LoughNeagh2017 · 28-08-2019 7:15pm

briany wrote: »

It's an interesting idea, but I don't know how it would work in practice. We can say on a casual basis that Irish and Scottish people are very similar, but when it comes to forming a political union, any cultural differences would be immediately exacerbated. You'd potentially have the Irish and Highland Scots on one side, with Lowland Scots and Northern Irish on the other, with everyone arguing about where the parliament building should be.

Highland Scots are from a "Northern Irish" ancestry

29-08-2019 2:41pm

LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »

Highland Scots are from a "Northern Irish" ancestry

not just the highlands, pretty much all Scots with the exception of the South East.

In DNA tests, there is very little to distinguish between the Scots and the Irish, from what i can gather.

derrymcorry · 15-10-2019 7:48pm

At the SNP conference in Aberdeen today Nicola Sturgeon said that they were preparing for a second independence referendum at the end of next year. She also said that Westminster couldn't stop it and Scotland was being taken out of the EU despite the electorate voting to remain. She said that Scotland is an economically viable independent nation.

What do you think about Scottish independence? Do you believe that it would be in the best interests of the Scottish people to become an indpendent country within the EU?

I, as an Irish republican, would be delighted to see an indpendent Scotland as I believe they could be our best friend within the EU now with England gone.

Also, think about the benefits that Scottish independence could have for Irish reunification.

2ygb4cmqetsjhx · 15-10-2019 11:05pm

I hope they go for it. I wonder how the Tories will spin it. All their old slogans are great. Better together. No Thanks. If you leave the UK you will have to apply to join the EU

Fr Tod Umptious · 16-10-2019 12:05am

I say it every time Scottish independence is mentioned here on boards.

Scottish independence would be economically bad for Ireland.

In the EU, speaking English etc they could be a direct competitor to Ireland for the FDI we so much rely on.

Other than Irish republicans like the op describes themselves as, who see this as a way to get back at the English by proxy, I don't see why anyone in Ireland should be in favour of the idea.

US2 · 16-10-2019 12:08am

This "we voted remain" is nonsense. Should gay marriage still be illegal in rosscomon ?

bilbot79 · 16-10-2019 12:11am

Ulster was planted to sever the link between Celts in Ireland and Scotland. Paradoxically, Britain's quest to feel like an empire again is undoing the last remnants of the empire.

derrymcorry · 16-10-2019 12:58am

An independent Scotland and a united Ireland would be best friends within the EU.

England can do whatever it wants. An independent Scotland and Ireland within the EU would lead both countries to thrive.

Scotland is big enough, populous enough and rich enough to be independent.

They have a higher national income per head of population than France, Japan and New Zealand.

They have North Sea oil.

They have scotch:D.

They would do brilliantly as an independent state, just as Ireland would as a reunified state.

Kermit.de.frog · 16-10-2019 1:07am

Scots see Ireland's influence in Brexit - and their own influence as part of the UK.

No contest really, is it? Scotland have been completely ignored.

BorneTobyWilde · 16-10-2019 1:30am

Yea Scotland are the ones sitting on the side of play ground as the rest of them play with their lives.

Donnielighto · 16-10-2019 1:36am

US2 wrote: »

This "we voted remain" is nonsense. Should gay marriage still be illegal in rosscomon ?

The recent Independence ref the remain side were saying that a big reason for attain in the UK was the EU.

Roscommon isn't an independent area but if they want to cede to ban gay marriage that's up to them to bring forward, nothing to do with Scotland's situation.

Donnielighto · 16-10-2019 1:38am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I say it every time Scottish independence is mentioned here on boards.

Scottish independence would be economically bad for Ireland.

In the EU, speaking English etc they could be a direct competitor to Ireland for the FDI we so much rely on.

Other than Irish republicans like the op describes themselves as, who see this as a way to get back at the English by proxy, I don't see why anyone in Ireland should be in favour of the idea.

I do think we'd be fairly in line on most policy though and it makes the EU market bigger and would be a stabilising effect after Brexit. I'd be happy for them to cede and join the EU.

LuckyLloyd · 16-10-2019 7:27am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I say it every time Scottish independence is mentioned here on boards.

Scottish independence would be economically bad for Ireland.

In the EU, speaking English etc they could be a direct competitor to Ireland for the FDI we so much rely on.

Other than Irish republicans like the op describes themselves as, who see this as a way to get back at the English by proxy, I don't see why anyone in Ireland should be in favour of the idea.

We should be in favour of the idea because it’s their right to make their own way if they so choose, and it has been dreadful to watch their interests and desires regarding the EU trampled by English nationalism and the narrow concerns of the Conservative party.

Fr Tod Umptious · 16-10-2019 8:01am

People who assume Scotland would be Ireland's friend if independent need only think back to the Rockall drama a few months ago.

That was Edinburgh driving that, not Westminster.

And what about Scotland becoming a member of the EU and the current seamless border between Scotland and England ?

A lot of businesses and farmers etc in Scotland and England would not like to see a border where one has not existed.
Getting that right would take some negotiating.

The irony of people like to OP who are "Irish republicans" is that they want to remove any sort of border on this island but support the erecting of one on the other island.

Fr Tod Umptious · 16-10-2019 8:02am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

We should be in favour of the idea because it’s their right to make their own way if they so choose, and it has been dreadful to watch their interests and desires regarding the EU trampled by English nationalism and the narrow concerns of the Conservative party.

Should we be in support of every separatist movement in Europe, the world ?

LuckyLloyd · 16-10-2019 12:21pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Should we be in support of every separatist movement in Europe, the world ?

We should be in support of a separatist movement we fully understand, can emphasise with, is peaceful and will be based on sound principles of freedom and democracy.

begsbyOnaTrain · 16-10-2019 12:45pm

derrymcorry wrote: »

They have North Sea oil.

Do they? Well of what's left, there's no guarantee it's "theirs". After all, there's plenty of stirring about the Shetland's leaving an independent Scotland.

I think the Yes to Indy side's projections for oil revenues were off by something crazy.

The Irish romance with the idea of an independent Scotland is very naive. As said, they'd be a direct competitor and there's a nasty anti-Irish strain common enough. I experienced far more prejudice and "incidents" living in leafy areas up there, than I have in my time in England.

jm08 · 16-10-2019 3:20pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I say it every time Scottish independence is mentioned here on boards.

Scottish independence would be economically bad for Ireland.

In the EU, speaking English etc they could be a direct competitor to Ireland for the FDI we so much rely on.

Other than Irish republicans like the op describes themselves as, who see this as a way to get back at the English by proxy, I don't see why anyone in Ireland should be in favour of the idea.

How come they are not that competitive on FDI at the moment?

Apart from anything else, Scotland's economy is different to Irelands in that it has oil, gas and heavy industry.

Fr Tod Umptious · 16-10-2019 4:00pm

jm08 wrote: »

How come they are not that competitive on FDI at the moment?

Apart from anything else, Scotland's economy is different to Irelands in that it has oil, gas and heavy industry.

Because a UK wide corporate tax rate of 19% makes them less attractive than Ireland's 12.5%

I thought that much would be obvious.

An independent Scotland could cut to 12.5% or lower if they saw fit.

bob mcbob · 16-10-2019 5:17pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Because a UK wide corporate tax rate of 19% makes them less attractive than Ireland's 12.5%

I thought that much would be obvious.

An independent Scotland could cut to 12.5% or lower if they saw fit.

A couple of points on this -
- If the only thing Ireland has going for it now is the lowest tax rate in town then you should be nervous
- Scotland (thru silicon glen in the 80's) had a bad experience one that the Scottish government is not going to repeat. I read somewhere that now they are more keen on growing indigenous industries / industrial sectors than attracting any company looking for an EU headquarter.

Off topic but on FDI & Ireland (or Dublin in particular) - how much is too much. Reading about what Silicon valley is doing for the original residents of San Fran where the influx of techies is push prices out of reach and killing the culture there. Is this a future you want for Dublin / Dubliners?

Scottish independence

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