Winter 20/21 - General Discussion

Cee-Jay-Cee · 12-11-2020 2:29pm

snowgal wrote: »

well it just goes to show, we all have been taught differently growing up..:)
for me its always been:
Feb/Mar/April spring ( In school, St Brigid's day was the first day of spring)
May/June/July Summer
Aug/Sept/Oct Autumn
Nov/Dec/Jan Winter
and before people go mad, Im just saying that is what we were taught in school etc .....and in my mind I go with that now for the seasons....

I cant remember what we were taught in school but was always of the belief that:

Summer - June July and August
Autumn - September, October and November
Winter - December, January & February and
Spring - March, April and May.

But in reality our summer in recent years has been April, May and June and then we had wet season for the rest of the year.

leahyl · 12-11-2020 2:50pm

snowgal wrote: »

well it just goes to show, we all have been taught differently growing up..:)
for me its always been:
Feb/Mar/April spring ( In school, St Brigid's day was the first day of spring)
May/June/July Summer
Aug/Sept/Oct Autumn
Nov/Dec/Jan Winter
and before people go mad, Im just saying that is what we were taught in school etc .....and in my mind I go with that now for the seasons....

Yes, same here, we were taught this in School - I looked it up and it has something to do with the Celtic calendar - whatever that is! It's obviously outdated now! I'm slowly getting used to September being the start of Autumn!:pac:

compsys · 12-11-2020 3:45pm

snowgal wrote: »

well it just goes to show, we all have been taught differently growing up..:)
for me its always been:
Feb/Mar/April spring ( In school, St Brigid's day was the first day of spring)
May/June/July Summer
Aug/Sept/Oct Autumn
Nov/Dec/Jan Winter
and before people go mad, Im just saying that is what we were taught in school etc .....and in my mind I go with that now for the seasons....

This comes up every year, and yes, I was taught those seasons in school too.

However, it's important to highlight that Ireland is the only country in the world that follows those seasons - every other country follows at least one month behind i.e. spring is March to May and summer is June to Aug. Any time I talk about weather to anyone in the UK they're baffled that we call Feb spring or may summer. It's important to highlight that Met Eireann, our own national weather service, who despite their shortcomings know a thing or two about weather, follow this definition too.

I also understand the USA defines summer as 20 June to 20 Sep (and this would be the warmest 12 week period in Ireland too) which further makes defining May as summer seem silly.

Of course you could argue that we rarely get summer anyway in Ireland and that winter never comes etc etc etc and we could all make up our own personal seasons but that's an entirely different conversation!

Also, from an average long-term temperature point of view, June to Aug are the three warmest months whereas Dec to Feb are the coldest so that should settle it imo.

hatrickpatrick · 12-11-2020 6:49pm

What always amuses me about this annual debate is that nobody seems to be aware of where it comes from. Imbolc, Bealtaine, Lughnasadh and Samhain are the four Celtic seasonal festivale, each marking the beginning of its respective season, and the Imbolc tradition in particular (Spring beginning on the 2nd of February) is something which has persisted in cultural memory and in a lot of primary school traditions etc. People didn't just pull the seasons out of their arses like

In fairness it actually does make sense - it simply defines the seasons based on hours of daylight as opposed to weather. The weather takes about a month to catch up with the planet's movement and tilt in relation to the sun, and this is why meteorological winter is one month ahead of the cultural winter in Ireland, which is still predominantly linked to daylight.

Most people associate November with Winter not only because of this tradition but because the clocks going back on the last weekend in October really makes it suddenly feel like we've been suddenly plunged into a different season altogether.

What does annoy me to be honest is the snobbery from some weather enthusiasts - I'd say the vast majority of people born pre-2000s were taught the cultural delineators of the seasons in school and by their parents, so they're not "wrong" and don't deserve to be made fun of or chastised for their belief that Spring begins in Feb and Winter begins in November. It's just a cultural thing which differs from the scientific term.

Personally I'll always hold that Winter begins in November seeing as it suddenly gets a lot colder and darker out. I realise that as far as weather systems go this is technically inaccurate, but those colouring books we had to fill out in Junior and Senior infants will take a lot more than internet squabbles to dislodge from my brain, and they consistently defined the seasons by their Celtic festivals rather than their meteorological changes.

Slashermcguirk · 12-11-2020 8:24pm

Met eireann say winter starts on 1st December and it runs to end of February. Dec to Feb are the three coldest months of the year statistically. I know a lot of people from Scandinavia and they also say December to February is winter.

If you even go to Continental Europe most Novembers you will rarely see lying snow. Just look around the continent right now, hardly a snow flake being seen except mountains

hatrickpatrick · 12-11-2020 8:52pm

Slashermcguirk wrote: »

Met eireann say winter starts on 1st December and it runs to end of February. Dec to Feb are the three coldest months of the year statistically. I know a lot of people from Scandinavia and they also say December to February is winter.

If you even go to Continental Europe most Novembers you will rarely see lying snow. Just look around the continent right now, hardly a snow flake being seen except mountains

Absolutely. What I'm saying is that Ireland has always traditionally anchored its seasons based on daylight hours as opposed to climate, and that while this is not scientifically correct, it is certainly culturally correct and people shouldn't be made fun of for repeating the cultural method of defining seasons which they in all probability picked up in either primary school or at home.

Yes, to a meteorologist it's technically incorrect, but if you take into account that Irish tradition simply disregards the weather and anchors its seasons based on equinoxes and solstices, it makes as much sense as our meteorological method. Doubly so as long as Daylight Saving Time remains an annual feature (I know there are moves to abolish it at the moment) as for many people and for many generations, the beginning of Winter was inexorably linked to the end of British Summer Time and the corresponding arrival of afternoon darkness.

SnowyMuckish · 12-11-2020 9:31pm

What I’m presently teaching in school is that the Gaeilge for October is Deireadh Fomhar which literally translates to ‘end of autumn’. I definitely take the traditional view of the seasons, it’s what we’ve had for 2 millennia!

compsys · 12-11-2020 11:21pm

Is this not supposed to be a weather forum?

The meteorological summer in Ireland is June to August and winter is from December to February. As that’s what the weather experts say.

Surely that should settle it, no?

According to Met E, we had the sunniest spring on record this year.

However according to some people here it wouldn’t have been recording breaking at all as May (the sunniest month on record for most) was in “summer.”

Correctly defining seasons is kinda important I would have thought.

Graces7 · 13-11-2020 3:54am

compsys wrote: »

Is this not supposed to be a weather forum?

The meteorological summer in Ireland is June to August and winter is from December to February. As that’s what the weather experts say.

Surely that should settle it, no?

According to Met E, we had the sunniest spring on record this year.

However according to some people here it wouldn’t have been recording breaking at all as May (the sunniest month on record for most) was in “summer.”

Correctly defining seasons is kinda important I would have thought.

Not in the slightest of any real importance! It is not as if we can either control or rely on the weather here... Just day by day now.

Dealing with and living with the actuality of day by day. Week by week, month by month. Knowing the changing weather will come and being ready for it. For general trends.

"weather experts" do not control the weather. And in Ireland thee can be and are many "weathers" every day depending on where in Ireland you live.

Wonderful that we cannot organise or control the forces of nature - but we can deal with the aftermath and respect them mightily.

Oneiric 3 · 13-11-2020 9:56am

If we be pedantic, then considering that the warmest 91 day period in Ireland, on average, is mid-June and mid - September, then that is what the true summer period is. For me, November is a real Autumn month, and while I appreciate that it can be dark and gloomy, this is only because we are just out of summer/early Autumn where long evenings are still fresh in our minds. Today, for example, will have about the same daylight length as a day in very late Jan or early Feb, but by then, we'll already be commenting on how the evenings are beginning to stretch out at last.

What I don't understand is how Feb and March can be classed as 'spring months', even in the old calendar. These two months are amongst the most brutish and grim of the year where death and despair is all encompassing, and I sometimes question whether April should be even classed as a spring month as well, given that there does be little sign of nature springing into life during it and often contains a chill that wouldn't be even felt in the winter.

Graces7 · 13-11-2020 10:21am

Oneiric 3 wrote: »

If we be pedantic, then considering that the warmest 91 day period in Ireland, on average, is mid-June and mid - September, then that is what the true summer period is. For me, November is a real Autumn month, and while I appreciate that it can be dark and gloomy, this is only because we are just out of summer/early Autumn where long evenings are still fresh in our minds. Today, for example, will have about the same daylight length as a day in very late Jan or early Feb, but by then, we'll already be commenting on how the evenings are beginning to stretch out at last.

What I don't understand is how Feb and March can be classed as 'spring months', even in the old calendar. These two months are amongst the most brutish and grim of the year where death and despair is all encompassing, and I sometimes question whether April should be even classed as a spring month as well, given that there does be little sign of nature springing into life during it and often contains a chill that wouldn't be even felt in the winter.

Things start growing in late Feb and in March they SPRING up …. Grass starts growing. lambs..... snowdrops....

You sound depressed ….

All weathers have their good and harder aspects... never knew a country worse than the UK for talking about the weather until I came to Ireland!
Just so glad to be still alive myself whatever the weather

compsys · 13-11-2020 11:29am

Oneiric 3 wrote: »

If we be pedantic, then considering that the warmest 91 day period in Ireland, on average, is mid-June and mid - September, then that is what the true summer period is. For me, November is a real Autumn month, and while I appreciate that it can be dark and gloomy, this is only because we are just out of summer/early Autumn where long evenings are still fresh in our minds. Today, for example, will have about the same daylight length as a day in very late Jan or early Feb, but by then, we'll already be commenting on how the evenings are beginning to stretch out at last.

What I don't understand is how Feb and March can be classed as 'spring months', even in the old calendar. These two months are amongst the most brutish and grim of the year where death and despair is all encompassing, and I sometimes question whether April should be even classed as a spring month as well, given that there does be little sign of nature springing into life during it and often contains a chill that wouldn't be even felt in the winter.

In the US, meteorological summer is actually defined as mid June to mid September AFAIK.

Oneiric 3 · 13-11-2020 3:03pm

Graces7 wrote: »

You sound depressed ….

I sound how I see it...

Of course every month has its own beauty, but the claim that Feb and March is 'spring' I just find obscene. Maybe that is down to me living in a particularly bleak part of the country or something, but that's how I see it.

Graces7 · 13-11-2020 3:49pm

Oneiric 3 wrote: »

I sound how I see it...

Of course every month has its own beauty, but the claim that Feb and March is 'spring' I just find obscene. Maybe that is down to me living in a particularly bleak part of the country or something, but that's how I see it.

That is a terribly inappropriate word. So sorry you feel like that. Where I live is bleak too but by February the daylight is growing and that is Spring in itself. And it is a reality... that lengthening of each day.

Cluedo Monopoly · 13-11-2020 4:18pm

Oneiric 3 wrote: »

If we be pedantic, then considering that the warmest 91 day period in Ireland, on average, is mid-June and mid - September, then that is what the true summer period is. For me, November is a real Autumn month, and while I appreciate that it can be dark and gloomy, this is only because we are just out of summer/early Autumn where long evenings are still fresh in our minds. Today, for example, will have about the same daylight length as a day in very late Jan or early Feb, but by then, we'll already be commenting on how the evenings are beginning to stretch out at last.

What I don't understand is how Feb and March can be classed as 'spring months', even in the old calendar. These two months are amongst the most brutish and grim of the year where death and despair is all encompassing, and I sometimes question whether April should be even classed as a spring month as well, given that there does be little sign of nature springing into life during it and often contains a chill that wouldn't be even felt in the winter.

I agree with this. The sea temperatures are also at their most brutal in February/March.

Thelonious Monk · 13-11-2020 4:27pm

This november must be the most autumnal november I can remember. Look outside, leaves everywhere. How anyone can call this winter is just ridiculous. Stop it.

monty_python · 13-11-2020 4:38pm

So are we getting snow or wha?

Graces7 · 13-11-2020 4:42pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

This november must be the most autumnal november I can remember. Look outside, leaves everywhere. How anyone can call this winter is just ridiculous. Stop it.

Will NOT! Out here not a leaf.

November is WINTER! lol....Always has been and always will be!

West Mayo offshore

Loughc · 13-11-2020 6:14pm

monty_python wrote: »

So are we getting snow or wha?

Nah not in Winter.

Maybe in Spring 2021.

Oneiric 3 · 13-11-2020 6:27pm

Graces7 wrote: »

November is WINTER!

I'm sorry Grace, but November is not Winter. Winter (Meteorlogical) is defined by temperature, not daylight length.

Reversal · 13-11-2020 7:03pm

Surely we can just stick with meteorological winter in the meteorology forum?

daniel_t1409 · 13-11-2020 7:15pm

ok lets stop the arguing about which month is which aeason.

This morning in wexford was nice - sunny and cold - but now its back to wind and rain:rolleyes:

Absolutely dreadful month so far, just as bad if not worse than summer:rolleyes:

fineso.mom · 13-11-2020 10:17pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Will NOT! Out here not a leaf.

November is WINTER! lol....Always has been and always will be!

West Mayo offshore

You've said numerous times that there are no trees on your island so of course there are no leaves. There are plenty of trees still full of leaves all around the country.

Graces7 · 13-11-2020 10:25pm

Oneiric 3 wrote: »

I'm sorry Grace, :eek: but November is not Winter. Winter (Meteorlogical) is defined by temperature, not daylight length.

But I am not a meteorologist and thus no obligation even on the weather forum to abide by that.

November is winter; has been for the nearly 80 years of my life and will be for whatever rapidly shortening life I have left.

I don't mind what you call November.

But please stop reprimanding others for differing! It serves no purpose .

Not checked further posts but I could forecast the IDs of the line of thanks here and it makes for incredible sadness.

There are abundant tech threads.

Graces7 · 13-11-2020 10:26pm

fineso.mom wrote: »

You've said numerous times that there are no trees on your island so of course there are no leaves. There are plenty of trees still full of leaves all around the country.

Good evening, my dear. Hope you are well.

Gonzo · 13-11-2020 10:26pm

first chance of wintry precipitation could be next Saturday, however this is very likely to not verify as zonal wintryness usually get's downgraded to cold rain by the time it happens.

This is basically a sleet/snow to rain event, but this will probably be gone on the next run, however it is the first chart to show wintry potential this season.

mcburns07 · 13-11-2020 10:30pm

Graces7 wrote: »

But I am not a meteorologist and thus no obligation even on the weather forum to abide by that.

November is winter; has been for the nearly 80 years of my life and will be for whatever rapidly shortening life I have left.

I don't mind what you call November.

But please stop reprimanding others for differing! It serves no purpose .

Not checked further posts but I could forecast the IDs of the line of thanks here and it makes for incredible sadness.

There are abundant tech threads.

:pac::pac::pac::pac: FFS - Incredible sadness due to other people disagreeing with you that November is winter. You're an interesting character Grace, i'll give you that much.

Graces7 · 13-11-2020 10:31pm

As wild a winter's night as ever was.

Deeply thankful for the small lull yesterday that made a window for the shopping to get here as seeing the warnings now.

Deluges loudening on the windows.

West Mayo offshore

Graces7 · 13-11-2020 10:39pm

mcburns07 wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac::pac: FFS - Incredible sadness due to other people disagreeing with you that November is winter. You're an interesting character Grace, i'll give you that much.

No; that so many continue to …. make such a thing of it.. Everyone knows we differ on this, and the combativeness makes me literally weep.

I do not mind that others think differently. At all. . As I have said many of us are not bound by meteorological terms. And to mention " winter" in November becomes a red rag to a bull.

So please; stop! Just stop! Realise that we differ.

Life is so hard just now. Too hard. Let there be peace and enjoyment of what we share. Thank you.

Graces7 · 13-11-2020 11:04pm

Reversal wrote: »

Surely we can just stick with meteorological winter in the meteorology forum?

But it is the weather forum... Not the meteorology forum. So many deep and lovely posts on it all too. Has been an awesome discussion! It really has

Cluedo Monopoly · 13-11-2020 11:07pm

Graces7 · 13-11-2020 11:10pm

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

ah thank you! Just now the wind here is making such lovely music so will save this for later

"under the weather" here in several senses so signing out and will try to keep weblog going. Be safe all.

mcburns07 · 13-11-2020 11:47pm

Graces7 wrote: »

ah thank you! Just now the wind here is making such lovely music so will save this for later

"under the weather" here in several senses so signing out and will try to keep weblog going. Be safe all.

Speak tomorrow

Kermit.de.frog · 13-11-2020 11:50pm

@Gonzo - definitely a period to watch with frontal zones coming up against cold air that should become reasonably embedded for a time from the north - it depends on orientation and how this interaction takes place but there are at least a couple of opportunities emerging but we need a few days yet to try nail anything down with the forecast. We'll see.

162-7UK.GIF?13-18

RobertKK · 13-11-2020 11:56pm

Last year there was snow on the 13th November.
A pic came up on my phone from a year ago and it was a decent dusting.

daniel_t1409 · 14-11-2020 12:01pm

Another dull day here in wexford. Fed up with this. As per usual the south east gets the worst of it

geminiman63 · 14-11-2020 1:22pm

Morning was ok in Wexford, plenty of people walking on Cullenstown strand, even 6 people having a dip in the sea :pac: ,
Weather is a bit rubbish now though, rain hopping off the window :pac:

Gaoth Laidir · 14-11-2020 2:40pm

This is the Science forum, so scientific facts rule. Yes, we've all been taught about what seasons are but there are so many types of seasons to define: meteorological, astronomical, phenological, religious, etc. Some countries have more than four seasons, some less. In Ireland we are all correct in our definitions, but for this forum, meteorological seasons are what count. In the astronomy forum, it's astronomical, in Farming it's different, in Gardening too.

So let's finally drop the annual debate in this forum and accept that everyone is looking at the word "season" differently, but in here it should be meteorological and that's it.

highdef · 14-11-2020 3:23pm

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

This is the Science forum, so scientific facts rule. Yes, we've all been taught about what seasons are but there are so many types of seasons to define: meteorological, astronomical, phenological, religious, etc. Some countries have more than four seasons, some less. In Ireland we are all correct in our definitions, but for this forum, meteorological seasons are what count. In the astronomy forum, it's astronomical, in Farming it's different, in Gardening too.

So let's finally drop the annual debate in this forum and accept that everyone is looking at the word "season" differently, but in here it should be meteorological and that's it.

Here here! I was taught the pagan/celtic calendar but I go by the scientific calendar, as per this section of Boards.

Even if my personal belief was still the pagan/celtic calendar, I would have respect for others here and use the scientific calendar and not try insist that my pagan/calendar is factually true in discussions that are held in this section of Boards.

There's a Christianity section of Boards where people can discuss such matters there. Whilst the posters there may say that winter is November to January and I completely disagree, I respect their beliefs and I don't post in that forum insisting that I am correct and they are completely wrong. It would be extremely disrespectful and rude of me to try force my own beliefs on others in such a manner in that sort of forum.

CountNjord · 14-11-2020 5:36pm

As an horticulturist I don't be bothered with the seasons much apart from the Dormant season and the growing season...
I'm also a pagan so I just go by the day thats ahead of me.
It could be may and it feels wintery, December and it feels balmy.

I've worked outside since I was a kid, and it's a different experience and way of living from people indoors.
I know every tree and shrub personally in the estate.

I love the weather forum, but arguing over the start of a season to me is foreign

icesnowfrost · 18-11-2020 3:24am

So quiet on here

DOCARCH · 18-11-2020 8:40am

icesnowfrost wrote: »

So quiet on here

Maybe because it's still Autumn?

Humberto Salazar · 18-11-2020 8:56am

Winter doesn't start until Dec 1. Meanwhile the mild wet dull horror show continues for another 10 days at least with the odd drier interlude. As we head into December not much changes it appears. There's no big permanent cold pool to tap into, or give hope for a more seasonal feel. We don't even get cold northwesterlies anymore. Pessimistic vibes in the ascendancy for those who like a bit of cold snowy weather or at least a glimpse of it. We shall see.

Loughc · 18-11-2020 9:06am

icesnowfrost wrote: »

So quiet on here

Everyone’s seen the long term winter forecast. It’s bleak reading hard to get motivated to post in here when we are looking at another mild, wet, windy winter. It was so mild out at 10pm last night.

Thelonious Monk · 18-11-2020 10:55am

New Zealand just had its warmest winter on record, this kind of thing seems to be trending worldwide.

icesnowfrost · 19-11-2020 1:49am

DOCARCH wrote: »

Maybe because it's still Autumn?

I see what you did there

icesnowfrost · 19-11-2020 1:54am

Loughc wrote: »

Everyone’s seen the long term winter forecast. It’s bleak reading hard to get motivated to post in here when we are looking at another mild, wet, windy winter. It was so mild out at 10pm last night.

Yeah I get that but I never buy into long rang winter forecasts no matter who or how professional the person is. It only takes a few tweaks over a few weeks for different outcomes.
But I agree as it stands at the moment it’s not looking great but in 2-3 weeks time we could be looking at a different outcome further down the line or not.
Just don’t believe it’s over before it’s begun.

Loughc · 19-11-2020 9:37am

icesnowfrost wrote: »

Yeah I get that but I never buy into long rang winter forecasts no matter who or how professional the person is.

I can't remember one winter forecast in the past 10 years that was wrong.

Don't do it to yourself man... it's the hope that kills ya.

pauldry · 19-11-2020 12:46pm

Maybe just maybe tentative signs at month end of some wintry showers.
After all it is Winter.:p

Gonzo · 19-11-2020 1:08pm

still looks very zonal right up the end of FI, slightly cooler than average at times between the mild interludes but those showers would mostly be cold rain and maybe some sleet with snow on the mountain tops.

Winter 20/21 - General Discussion

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