Random EV thoughts.....

Busman Paddy Lasty · 26-02-2021 2:32pm

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I feel like a mileage based road tax would be best for EVs, or a flat rate and an overhaul of motorway tolling to do it on a per exit basis

Mileage based tax will create red tape and penalise efficient cars if it's not linked back to motor tax category though.

Fuel tax is a proxy for mileage, efficiency, driving style or any factor that increases consumption. Administering this is passive when paying it at the fuel pump. More elegant solution.

the_amazing_raisin · 26-02-2021 2:44pm

Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »

Mileage based tax will create red tape and penalise efficient cars if it's not linked back to motor tax category though.

Fuel tax is a proxy for mileage, efficiency, driving style or any factor that increases consumption. Administering this is passive when paying it at the fuel pump. More elegant solution.

True, but it won't work for EVs, so in the end something will have to replace it

Exit based tolling is probably simpler to implement and more difficult to evade. That'll only find the motorway network though

I think the whole "motor tax pays for roads" argument doesn't really work anymore since it's all lumped into one budget, but the road network needs to be maintained and if they eliminated road tax then the money would just be taxed in a different way

Busman Paddy Lasty · 26-02-2021 3:06pm

cruisey1987 wrote: »

True, but it won't work for EVs, so in the end something will have to replace it

Exit based tolling is probably simpler to implement and more difficult to evade. That'll only find the motorway network though

I think the whole "motor tax pays for roads" argument doesn't really work anymore since it's all lumped into one budget, but the road network needs to be maintained and if they eliminated road tax then the money would just be taxed in a different way

Oh intended as a method to promote EVs and gradually get rid of ripping off the motorist for no good reason.

MJohnston · 26-02-2021 3:33pm

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I'm not sure I buy the whole road wear argument, especially when there's hundereds of HGVs doing much more damage.

For me it's about cost to society. Motor tax is wholly a carbon tax currently, but there are other costs to society of someone using a vehicle that need to be accounted for.

Health costs of NOx emissions (and Eamon Ryan should be hung by his party for pushing diesels early in the 2000s, which has massively contributed to the rise of these) and potentially micropollution.
Safety costs due to the presence of vehicles.
Costs to local authorities due to road maintenance.
etc.

I love EVs, but they only solve the local macro-emissions problem, so I don't think us EV owners should ever be let fully off of the annual taxation hook. A mileage-based tax would work for me, given that a lot of the non-emissions costs accrue due to vehicle usage, rather than their mere existence.

26-02-2021 3:40pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Health costs of NOx emissions (and Eamon Ryan should be hung by his party for pushing diesels early in the 2000s, which has massively contributed to the rise of these) and potentially micropollution.
Safety costs due to the presence of vehicles.
Costs to local authorities due to road maintenance.
etc.

it is a misapprehension that cars destroy road surfaces, lorries and especially overloaded lorries destroy road surfaces.
the new regulations from 2022 mean that for new cars you will need to try very hard to crash in to someone or something else. the car will prevent or mitigate many accidents.
EVs produce next to no pollution(dependent on electricity source). brake pads barely engage to produce brake dust.

the_amazing_raisin · 26-02-2021 3:56pm

Fastned just procured some cash

https://www.electrive.com/2021/02/26/fastned-closes-financing-round-with-e150-million/

€150 million (10 times ESB eCars funding) should buy a lot of chargers with that amount

Fingers corssed they come to Ireland soon, they're already looking for locations

KCross · 26-02-2021 4:13pm

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Fastned just procured some cash

https://www.electrive.com/2021/02/26/fastned-closes-financing-round-with-e150-million/

€150 million (10 times ESB eCars funding) should buy a lot of chargers with that amount

Fingers corssed they come to Ireland soon, they're already looking for locations

Fastned seem to be very focussed on an ever increasing circle around their home country (Belgium, Switzerland, Germany).

I'd see them going into France in particular but also Spain, Portugal and Italy before they moved into our uneconomic proposition, we can but hope!

26-02-2021 4:14pm

MJohnston wrote: »

The emission component of an EV is not zero, not yet. Otherwise fine - although EVs are currently heavier than the comparable ICE, contributing more to road wear (which isn't what motor tax is for, but there has to be a recognition of that somewhere).

I'd imagine scrappage is a post-2030 project, I'd say there's no chance that should happen before that.

Much as I'd love to switch everyone to EVs within a year, there's no country on Earth that could manage that. The gradual adoption is intentional.

Personally, I would prefer if they didn't do scrappage, instead give tax incentives to de-ICE vehicles that are recent and viable to convert.

timsey tiger · 26-02-2021 4:22pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Personally, I would prefer if they didn't do scrappage, instead give tax incentives to de-ICE vehicles that are recent and viable to convert.

Only ever going to be niche, given the immense expense and design compromises meaning the vehicles are going to be of limited utility.

No point in giving incentives to things that will ultimately never achieve scale. imo

26-02-2021 4:28pm

timsey tiger wrote: »

Only ever going to be niche, given the immense expense and design compromises meaning the vehicles are going to be of limited utility.

No point in giving incentives to things that will ultimately never achieve scale. imo

Depends on the vehicle, with a decent tax incentive and low resale value of the ICE, the de-ICE'd vehicle could still be worthwhile doing, crossovers & SUV's make the perfect platform with their already raised floors.

MJohnston · 26-02-2021 8:19pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

it is a misapprehension that cars destroy road surfaces, lorries and especially overloaded lorries destroy road surfaces.
the new regulations from 2022 mean that for new cars you will need to try very hard to crash in to someone or something else. the car will prevent or mitigate many accidents.
EVs produce next to no pollution(dependent on electricity source). brake pads barely engage to produce brake dust.

None of that suggests that anything I mentioned will be completely eliminated by a switch to EVs.

the_amazing_raisin · 26-02-2021 8:29pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Personally, I would prefer if they didn't do scrappage, instead give tax incentives to de-ICE vehicles that are recent and viable to convert.

Offer scrappage on older vehicles starting with euro 4 and 5 first. Get the most polluting cars off the road. As we get towards 2030, extend it to euro 6 which will be getting old by then anyway

It's worth considering there are other improvements besides emissions. The safety systems in modern cars are a big improvement over cars from 10 years ago. Moving to newer cars could improve overall road safety

26-02-2021 8:36pm

MJohnston wrote: »

None of that suggests that anything I mentioned will be completely eliminated by a switch to EVs.

I can't help if you want people to be wrapped up in cotton wool from cradle to grave.

JohnC. · 28-02-2021 6:57pm

I know some here would like better signage for EV parking. Let's hope for better than this.

the_amazing_raisin · 28-02-2021 9:19pm

JohnC. wrote: »

I know some here would like better signage for EV parking. Let's hope for better than this.

I wouldn't even call that green, more of a turquoise

redcup342 · 01-03-2021 3:19pm

Ah Americans ..... I guess this is comparitively clean :pac:

Took this when I was in San Francisco

timsey tiger · 01-03-2021 3:34pm

redcup342 wrote: »

Ah Americans ..... I guess this is comparitively clean :pac:

Took this when I was in San Francisco

They are all clean when they are parked up

01-03-2021 5:04pm

At least it has an NCT :P

liamog · 01-03-2021 6:14pm

I may have seen the worst ever picture of EV charging from an automotive mag AutoExpress

Citroen%20e-C4%202021%20UK-14.jpg

Markcheese · 01-03-2021 6:57pm

What am I missing ?

innrain · 01-03-2021 6:58pm

Markcheese wrote: »

What am I missing ?

Follow the lead

liamog · 01-03-2021 6:59pm

Markcheese wrote: »

What am I missing ?

Follow the charging cable, notice they've plugged the type2 - type2 cable into the cable holder on the charging unit, meanwhile the AC43 Type 2 has been hidden behind the offside rear wheel.

This car is only plugged in at one side

pdpmur · 01-03-2021 7:14pm

liamog wrote: »

This car is only plugged in at one side

Definitely one for a Zoom quiz!

liamog · 01-03-2021 7:21pm

My guess is they told the photographer to get a picture of the car charging, when the cable couldn't stretch to side of the car they gave up and staged it to make it look like it was plugged in.

AndyBoBandy · 01-03-2021 7:29pm

liamog wrote: »

My guess is they told the photographer to get a picture of the car charging, when the cable couldn't stretch to side of the car they gave up and staged it to make it look like it was plugged in.

This is exactly what happened.

The photo probably needed to be taken from that angle due to light......

MJohnston · 01-03-2021 8:23pm

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

This is W at what happened.

The photo probably needed to be taken from that angle due to light......

Also presumably they wanted it staged with the charger and the charging port of the car visible in the same shot.

Still, if that car was parked flipped 180 degrees, I bet even then the built-in charging cables wouldn't stretch the 2 metres or whatever.

Kramer · 01-03-2021 10:10pm

To add insult to injury - an eCars charger too

.

DrPhilG · 03-03-2021 3:01pm

What speed does a Model S P90 get on the fast AC side of a triple head?

AndyBoBandy · 03-03-2021 3:06pm

DrPhilG wrote: »

What speed does a Model S P90 get on the fast AC side of a triple head?

If it's got the dual AC chargers (as most seem to), it should get 22kW max from AC.

Not too shabby if waiting for the CCS/CHAdeMO to become free..

DrPhilG · 03-03-2021 3:08pm

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

If it's got the dual AC chargers (as most seem to), it should get 22kW max from AC.

Not too happy if waiting for the CCS/CHAdeMO to become free..

Saw one today that had taken 61kWh, but had been there almost 4 hours.

That charger will allow a simultaneous DC charge but wont share the load until one has slowed down, so chances are that anyone plugging into the DC would get the "charge delayed until power is available" message.

It's up north by the way, hence overstay fees not an issue.

slave1 · 03-03-2021 3:22pm

DrPhilG wrote: »

What speed does a Model S P90 get on the fast AC side of a triple head?

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

If it's got the dual AC chargers (as most seem to), it should get 22kW max from AC.

Not too shabby if waiting for the CCS/CHAdeMO to become free..

Don't ask me to explain why but my dual charger takes 23kW, pretty sure I've seen others post the same also, don't know if this is the car overstating or chargepoint understating

slave1 · 03-03-2021 3:23pm

DrPhilG wrote: »

...
It's up north by the way, hence overstay fees not an issue.

No AC overstay fees here either, they are just for DC chargers

DrPhilG · 03-03-2021 3:27pm

slave1 wrote: »

No AC overstay fees here either, they are just for DC chargers

It's the fast AC port of a triple head rapid charger though.

Don't those attract an overstay fee in ROI too? Since it is technically capable of 43kw?

slave1 · 03-03-2021 3:31pm

Good one ..
eCars say

Note: To ensure a charge point is available for the next user, an overstay fee of €4.60 will apply for charging sessions longer than 45 minutes on ESB fast chargers.

so it's the charger that determines and not whether AC or DC.
That means no overstay fee on the High Power units

Well now I know

innrain · 03-03-2021 5:12pm

slave1 wrote: »

Good one ..
eCars say
Note: To ensure a charge point is available for the next user, an overstay fee of €4.60 will apply for charging sessions longer than 45 minutes on ESB fast chargers.
so it's the charger that determines and not whether AC or DC.
That means no overstay fee on the High Power units

Well now I know

Ecars says:
7. Overstay Fees
7.1 In order to ensure efficient use of the Public Charging Network, and to discourage inappropriate use of Fast Charge Points and High Power Charge Points, an overstay fee may be applicable. This is specified in the Price Plan Terms and Conditions, and will be included in the over-all cost to charge.

https://esb.ie/ecars/price-plans/terms-of-service

ELM327 · 03-03-2021 5:41pm

The overstay for HPC is listed on the app

Kramer · 03-03-2021 7:04pm

slave1 wrote: »

Don't ask me to explain why but my dual charger takes 23kW, pretty sure I've seen others post the same also, don't know if this is the car overstating or chargepoint understating

Cars draw amps & the total power is amps x voltage.
Standard voltage is 230v, +/- 10%.

32a x 230v = 7.4kW
48a x 230v = 11kW (3 phase, 3x 16a).

Where the grid/supply voltage is high, say 250v,
32a x 250v = 8kW.
48a x 250v = 12kW.

A dual charger Model S could pull 96a so exceed 23kW with a high grid voltage.

I've seen our Model 3 reach 12kW (48a x 253v).

ELM327 · 04-03-2021 10:46am

Same here, my S has only single charger (so max "11kW" 3ph) and I routinely see 12kW at work before covid, as the voltage there was over 250.

Working it out, the car rounds up, so if you have 11.5kW it displays as 12kW

the_amazing_raisin · 04-03-2021 11:25am

Turns out there's been a company in France making solid state batteries for several years, and they're in use in electric buses

https://www.electrive.com/2021/03/03/actually-we-are-the-pioneer-of-solid-state-battery/

It looks like the cells are solid state but they still need to heat the battery to 50-80C to get it up to operating temp. However no cooling system required, which would remove one of the big costs in an EV

Looks like they're hoping to have a battery operating at 20C in production by 2026, hopefully it works out well for them, and for future EV owners

slave1 · 04-03-2021 11:29am

innrain wrote: »

Ecars says:
7. Overstay Fees
7.1 In order to ensure efficient use of the Public Charging Network, and to discourage inappropriate use of Fast Charge Points and High Power Charge Points, an overstay fee may be applicable. This is specified in the Price Plan Terms and Conditions, and will be included in the over-all cost to charge.

https://esb.ie/ecars/price-plans/terms-of-service

They need to sort out their website so because they list the prices for Standard, Fast and High Power on this page and at the bottom clearly states

"To ensure a charge point is available for the next user, an overstay fee of €4.60 will apply for charging sessions longer than 45 minutes on ESB fast chargers."

Anyhow, not trying to be an arse, first place I looked on their website states overstay fee for just Fast Chargers, other parts of website say the High Power ones are included too so fair enough, good to know.

unkel · 04-03-2021 11:33am

ELM327 wrote: »

Same here, my S has only single charger (so max "11kW" 3ph) and I routinely see 12kW at work before covid, as the voltage there was over 250.

Working it out, the car rounds up, so if you have 11.5kW it displays as 12kW

Yep. All those 22kW AC charge points in Ireland and the Zoes and Teslas with dual charger that can charge at 22kW from them?

That's actually 23kW in most cases. Typically 240V * 3 phases * 32A = 23kW

KCross · 06-03-2021 4:34pm

This isnt really EV related but based on the eBike popularity there might be some interest...

I have a few small Li-ion packs that are used in a robot mower which I dont need. I'd be willing to send them to someone (no warranty of any kind) if they want to play around with them.

I have 4 packs in total.

2 x 18V/2.3Ah/57.6Wh <-- These are used but still working and I'd estimate down to somewhere around 70% capacity but I have not exactly measured it. Just based on how long they now last in the robot compared to new

I have another 2...

2 x 18V/5.2Ah/93.6Wh. <-- These are brand new but dont work in my mower. I got a refund but got to keep them. I cant say for sure if they are faulty or just not compatible. I have no interest in selling them and potentially dealing with an unhappy purchaser and since they are standing me zero I'm happy to give them away and have someone get value out of them if they work.

They all look like this
https://batteryempire.co.uk/husqvarna/2027-2663505-green-cell-battery-5ah-18v-580-68-33-01-for-husqvarna-automower-320-330x-430.html

PM me if you want them and we can discuss postage/collection etc.

unkel · 06-03-2021 5:44pm

Fair play to you. They look like a 5S2P setup of 18650 lithium ion cells with a built in BMS. Combine two identical ones of them in series and you should have a decent enough albeit short range battery pack for a 36V eBike!

AndyBoBandy · 09-03-2021 4:25pm

Opinions on this Leaf please?

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/nissan-leaf-30kw-cold-pk-high-spec/27344485?campaign=6

My mam is driving a 2012 Yaris, and it's a piece of crap, and she wants to go up a few more years at some stage this year, and I'd love to get her into an EV.

99% of her driving would be short hops in and around Dublin city/suburbs.... with possibly the occasional overnight trip to Waterford here and there (most likely stopping in Kilcullen for top ups).

Screen shows 142km range on what looks like a full charge - how does this stack up on a 30kW Leaf?
Has the cold pack, which is handy.
Would it be a 3.3kW onboard charger, or 7kW (wouldn't really matter too much anyway).
Seems within budget...

any advice?

the_amazing_raisin · 09-03-2021 4:41pm

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Opinions on this Leaf please?

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/nissan-leaf-30kw-cold-pk-high-spec/27344485?campaign=6

My mam is driving a 2012 Yaris, and it's a piece of crap, and she wants to go up a few more years at some stage this year, and I'd love to get her into an EV.

99% of her driving would be short hops in and around Dublin city/suburbs.... with possibly the occasional overnight trip to Waterford here and there (most likely stopping in Kilcullen for top ups).

Screen shows 142km range on what looks like a full charge - how does this stack up on a 30kW Leaf?
Has the cold pack, which is handy.
Would it be a 3.3kW onboard charger, or 7kW (wouldn't really matter too much anyway).
Seems within budget...

any advice?

The GOM can be a bit unreliable measure of battery health in the Leaf, it's based on consumption so if the car has been driven gently a lot it'll be somewhat optimistic

My Leaf24 was claiming 140km until I ran the battery close to empty and it was forced to recalibrate, now it gives a more realistic 125km

142km for a Leaf30 seems a tad low unless it's seen a lot of motorway driving, I'd check if this one has the BMS update which underrated the battery health. Leafspy won't give you the correct SOH if it hasn't been updated AFAIK

Other than that it seem reasonable

slave1 · 09-03-2021 5:06pm

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Opinions on this Leaf please?

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/nissan-leaf-30kw-cold-pk-high-spec/27344485?campaign=6

My mam is driving a 2012 Yaris, and it's a piece of crap, and she wants to go up a few more years at some stage this year, and I'd love to get her into an EV.

99% of her driving would be short hops in and around Dublin city/suburbs.... with possibly the occasional overnight trip to Waterford here and there (most likely stopping in Kilcullen for top ups).

Screen shows 142km range on what looks like a full charge - how does this stack up on a 30kW Leaf?
Has the cold pack, which is handy.
Would it be a 3.3kW onboard charger, or 7kW (wouldn't really matter too much anyway).
Seems within budget...

any advice?

I've a 162 L30, realistic Winter range is around 135'ish (depending on how you drive of course), Summer around 160kms

KCross · 09-03-2021 10:37pm

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Opinions on this Leaf please?

Screen shows 142km range on what looks like a full charge - how does this stack up on a 30kW Leaf?
Has the cold pack, which is handy.
Would it be a 3.3kW onboard charger, or 7kW (wouldn't really matter too much anyway).
Seems within budget...

any advice?

I wouldnt trust that its a 30kWh Leaf until you get proof of it.

Two additional pics from the dealer would help too..

- A pic of the plate on the drivers side pillar when you open the door.... it shows the weight of the car.... that will tell you whether its a 30kWh or not.

- A pic of the dash when it is showing the charge time. You have to press the botton to the right of the steering wheel and cycle through the menus until it shows the charge time.... if it shows a 6.6kW charge time then it has the faster charging.

Other than that it looks like a clean car, reasonable asking price (assuming its an L30) that you negotiate down from.

the_amazing_raisin · 09-03-2021 11:17pm

KCross wrote: »

I wouldnt trust that its a 30kWh Leaf until you get proof of it.

Two additional pics from the dealer would help too..

- A pic of the plate on the drivers side pillar when you open the door.... it shows the weight of the car.... that will tell you whether its a 30kWh or not.

- A pic of the dash when it is showing the charge time. You have to press the botton to the right of the steering wheel and cycle through the menus until it shows the charge time.... if it shows a 6.6kW charge time then it has the faster charging.

Other than that it looks like a clean car, reasonable asking price (assuming its an L30) that you negotiate down from.

Probably easiest to just ask for the VIN or registration number, could look it up on cartell or something similar?

Black_Knight · 11-03-2021 10:30pm

Bjorn got the covid... But eC4 looks on his agenda in a few weeks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsSEBlaiaJk

innrain · 12-03-2021 8:50pm

https://www.ecotricity.co.uk/our-news/2021/ecotricity-and-gridserve-to-power-the-electric-highway
Gridserve bought 25% of Ecotricity. They are going to replace 300 old chargers "by this summer" while also deploying HPCs.

Random EV thoughts.....

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