The Skripal Salisbury Spooks

Dohnjoe · 06-05-2021 12:19am

ShatterAlan wrote: »

One last question. How deadly is this "Novichok"?

It's a lethal nerve agent. It killed one person (Dawn Sturgess). It depends on concentration and exposure

Actually I'll add to that.......what POSSIBLE advantage or outcome could have benefitted, Russia, Putin, the spooky Ruskis, Muslims, Castro <insert enemie du jour here> in trying AND FAILING to kill a low grade, retired spook?

Sends a clear message to anyone thinking of leaking information on Russia

If he was living in a fairly modest 2 up 2 down in England but was still such a threat to Russia and passing on information to the Brits and that's why he had to be offed then I would imagine he would have been a valuable guy who wouldn't be so exposed as to be able to go for a pizza and then get poisoned but not killed by two of the (apparently) deadliest hit men in the world, who have since blown up a Czech arms factory.

Reality doesn't seem to fit your world view

ShatterAlan · 06-05-2021 1:45am

Dohnjoe wrote: »

It's a lethal nerve agent. It killed one person (Dawn Sturgess). It depends on concentration and exposure

Sends a clear message to anyone thinking of leaking information on Russia

Reality doesn't seem to fit your world view

So lethal it can be found in a hotel and had no effect on the staff or the dudes who were supposed to be carrying it around?

So lethal that it can be smeared on a doorknob to the point that anyone touching that doorknob is as good as dead. The house had to be bulldozed but the pets inside were fine. Of course they were taken and gotten rid of too.

So amazingly lethal that one could die from it by touching a cigarette butt in a park.

And all of this was to leave "a calling card"
"We didn't whack Sergei or his daughter, because our poisons are crap, but let the world know that we're a massive threat and that we can send a message that everyone should fear us. We don't have the brains, nor the method nor the experience to kill some guy in England with a simple bullet yet we have the genius to take Crimea in one swift motion.

And that's your big theory.

Beautiful

:pac:

Reality doesn't seem to be something with which YOU are familiar in the slightest.

Perhaps Bellingcat can set us all straight.

King Mob · 06-05-2021 3:33am

ShatterAlan wrote: »

So lethal it can be found in a hotel and had no effect on the staff or the dudes who were supposed to be carrying it around?

So lethal that it can be smeared on a doorknob to the point that anyone touching that doorknob is as good as dead. The house had to be bulldozed but the pets inside were fine. Of course they were taken and gotten rid of too.

So amazingly lethal that one could die from it by touching a cigarette butt in a park.

So you're claiming that nerve agent isn't lethal?
What an odd thing to claim...

ShatterAlan wrote: »

And all of this was to leave "a calling card"
"We didn't whack Sergei or his daughter, because our poisons are crap, but let the world know that we're a massive threat and that we can send a message that everyone should fear us. We don't have the brains, nor the method nor the experience to kill some guy in England with a simple bullet yet we have the genius to take Crimea in one swift motion.

And that's your big theory.

Beautiful

:pac:

Reality doesn't seem to be something with which YOU are familiar in the slightest.

Perhaps Bellingcat can set us all straight.

So what's the alternative theory you believe?
What support does your theory have beyond Russian state media?

Dohnjoe · 06-05-2021 10:36am

ShatterAlan wrote: »

So lethal it can be found in a hotel and had no effect on the staff or the dudes who were supposed to be carrying it around?

Traces of it were found in the hotel. Trace amounts aren't lethal. Read my post carefully see where I wrote: "It depends on concentration and exposure"

Are you suggesting these people weren't poisoned with Novichok? You know more than the OPCW, of which Russia is a member? and what's your source?

So lethal that it can be smeared on a doorknob to the point that anyone touching that doorknob is as good as dead. The house had to be bulldozed but the pets inside were fine. Of course they were taken and gotten rid of too.

The house hasn't been bulldozed. You need to actually read this thread.

And all of this was to leave "a calling card"
"We didn't whack Sergei or his daughter, because our poisons are crap, but let the world know that we're a massive threat and that we can send a message that everyone should fear us. We don't have the brains, nor the method nor the experience to kill some guy in England with a simple bullet yet we have the genius to take Crimea in one swift motion.

Why was Litvinenko poisoned with Polonium 210?
Why was opposition politician Navalny poisoned with Novichok?

They could have silently killed these people in any number of ways, but they chose to attempt assassination in a very extreme and headline grabbing way, why is that?

You have any explanation?

According to you the Skripals weren't poisoned or they were? with what? by whom? and evidence for that? very interested in your sources, better not be Craig Murray's blog

Again, you haven't countered a single piece of evidence, you haven't provided any explanations for any of this. You seem to have granted yourself the special position of being able to blindly deny events whilst not having to explain what happened.

mcmoustache · 06-05-2021 1:41pm

King Mob wrote: »

So you're claiming that nerve agent isn't lethal?
What an odd thing to claim...

So what's the alternative theory you believe?

You're unlikely to get one. The way that the Russian Firehose of Falsehood disinformation system works is not that it provides an alternative narrative for its consumers to believe - rather it bombards them with a loads of competing and contradictory fragments of information to convince them that the truth is unknowable and therefore that any narrative, including the obvious one, cannot be true.

You see it here all the time. Victims of this sort of disinformation campaign never have a competing version of events that fits the available evidence. In fact, they won't even look at the evidence a lot of the time so there's no competing narrative to be formed. Instead what you get is incredulity and nitpicking which coincidentally, you also find on Russian TV and their English-speaking surrogate media.

In many ways, it's funny to see it in action but like I said, you're unlikely to get a counter narrative, especially not one that fits the evidence.

King Mob · 06-05-2021 2:07pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

You're unlikely to get one. The way that the Russian Firehose of Falsehood disinformation system works is not that it provides an alternative narrative for its consumers to believe - rather it bombards them with a loads of competing and contradictory fragments of information to convince them that the truth is unknowable and therefore that any narrative, including the obvious one, cannot be true.

You see it here all the time. Victims of this sort of disinformation campaign never have a competing version of events that fits the available evidence. In fact, they won't even look at the evidence a lot of the time so there's no competing narrative to be formed. Instead what you get is incredulity and nitpicking which coincidentally, you also find on Russian TV and their English-speaking surrogate media.

In many ways, it's funny to see it in action but like I said, you're unlikely to get a counter narrative, especially not one that fits the evidence.

I've been seeing this kinda pattern a lot in other conspiracy theories these days. I wonder if it's something conspiracy mongers are aping from real disinformation agents, or vice versa.

But it's very odd to see how eager some conspiracy theorists are to swallow this really Orwellian stuff from state media.

ShatterAlan · 06-05-2021 3:54pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

You're unlikely to get one. The way that the Russian Firehose of Falsehood disinformation system works is not that it provides an alternative narrative for its consumers to believe - rather it bombards them with a loads of competing and contradictory fragments of information to convince them that the truth is unknowable and therefore that any narrative, including the obvious one, cannot be true.

You see it here all the time. Victims of this sort of disinformation campaign never have a competing version of events that fits the available evidence. In fact, they won't even look at the evidence a lot of the time so there's no competing narrative to be formed. Instead what you get is incredulity and nitpicking which coincidentally, you also find on Russian TV and their English-speaking surrogate media.

In many ways, it's funny to see it in action but like I said, you're unlikely to get a counter narrative, especially not one that fits the evidence.

There is no onus to provide an alternative when one is doubting a narrative. That is a trick that YOUR ilk use to try and defend your position.

I've used the example of the dead body with multiple stab wounds in his back. The official narrative is that it's suicide. You swallow this hook, line and sinker whereas others express absolute disbelief. Your angle is to then demand an alternative if it couldn't be suicide.

It's not short of demanding proof of a negative. Prove it wasn't suicide. Prove God or Santa or the Tooth Fairy don't exist. Prove the spooks didn't poison Skripal.

Dohnjoe · 06-05-2021 3:59pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

There is no onus to provide an alternative when one is doubting a narrative.

Again, creating this bizarre special rule for yourself.

You can't just pluck events from history and deny they happened based on your own personal disbelief and then expect to be taken seriously in any way.

King Mob · 06-05-2021 4:12pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

There is no onus to provide an alternative when one is doubting a narrative. That is a trick that YOUR ilk use to try and defend your position.

No, you don't have to provide an alternative.
But the fact that you're doing everything but even suggesting a possible alternative just highlights what Dohnjoe and mcmoustache are saying.

You don't have an alternative because you are only parroting the doubts you read a swallow from conspiracy websites. You can't provide an alternative because these sources don't and can't without sounding idiotic.
You can't make up your own as this requires some critical thought on your part, or alternatively, you realise that there is no alternative you can provide that doesn't sound ridicilous.

If this isn't the cause, why else are you unable to provide an alternative.
No one is dumb enough to buy this idea that you're not providing one because you aren't daining to.

ShatterAlan wrote: »

I've used the example of the dead body with multiple stab wounds in his back. The official narrative is that it's suicide. You swallow this hook, line and sinker whereas others express absolute disbelief. Your angle is to then demand an alternative if it couldn't be suicide.

But in this case, the alternative explanation is obvious and can be easily explained.

What's happening here is that there's a dead body with multiple stab wounds in the shape of Putin's name.
Meanwhile you're saying "knifes aren't even deadly! I use a knife all the time to butter my toast! "

ShatterAlan wrote: »

It's not short of demanding proof of a negative. Prove it wasn't suicide. Prove God or Santa or the Tooth Fairy don't exist. Prove the spooks didn't poison Skripal.

It's weird that you seem to understand this concept when you think it suits you. There's been a bunch of times when you've demanded negative proof as if it was a killer tactic.

ShatterAlan · 06-05-2021 4:41pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

It's a lethal nerve agent. It killed one person (Dawn Sturgess). It depends on concentration and exposure

Sends a clear message to anyone thinking of leaking information on Russia

Reality doesn't seem to fit your world view

Why would Russia risk its reputation so close to the World Cup?

Why would Russia take 8 years to exact vengeance?

Why would Russia jeopardise future spy swaps by ordering an assassination of a swapped spy?

The only answer you'll get to these questions is that Putin is a baddie or some other infantile excuse.

King Mob · 06-05-2021 4:52pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

The only answer you'll get to these questions is that Putin is a baddie or some other infantile excuse.

But all your questions get answers.
You answer no questions.

Notice the pattern?

Dohnjoe · 06-05-2021 5:08pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Why would Russia risk its reputation so close to the World Cup?

Putin doesn't seem to care, his domestic popularity was unaffected. He has recently had an opposition politician poisoned, unthinkable in most modern democracies, but not out of place in Putin's Russia, and it hasn't affected him politically

He seems to be far more concerned with info being leaked than he is with international reputation or sanctions

Why would Russia take 8 years to exact vengeance?

They took 6 years to kill Litvinenko, why is time-scale an issue?

Why would Russia jeopardise future spy swaps by ordering an assassination of a swapped spy?

It's likely they'll happen regardless, but I suspect people will think long and hard about "betraying" Russia under Putin. Nasty things have a habit of happening to those people.

The only answer you'll get to these questions is that Putin is a baddie or some other infantile excuse.

I've addressed your questions and points in this thread, you haven't addressed mine

mcmoustache · 06-05-2021 7:51pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Why would Russia risk its reputation so close to the World Cup?

Why would Russia take 8 years to exact vengeance?

Why would Russia jeopardise future spy swaps by ordering an assassination of a swapped spy?

That's literally arguing from incredulity. Just because you don't understand why things happened that way, it doesn't mean that they didn't happen.

06-05-2021 8:02pm

So Skripal was stabbed multiple times in the back? I'm so confused.

mcmoustache · 06-05-2021 8:11pm

King Mob wrote: »

I've been seeing this kinda pattern a lot in other conspiracy theories these days. I wonder if it's something conspiracy mongers are aping from real disinformation agents, or vice versa.

But it's very odd to see how eager some conspiracy theorists are to swallow this really Orwellian stuff from state media.

A good example is infowars. If you look at their world news section, you'll find it littered with Sputnik and RT links. The Russians themselves are more than happy to spread any number of the conspiracy theories that originate in the West too so it's not one-way. It's a symbiotic, contorted human centipede of disinformation.

There's one main difference between the two though, in my opinion. The Alex Jones types tend to have some other narrative, for example that Sandy Hook was a false flag and that the kids were actors. Russia on the other hand offers multiple nonsensical ones, not to convince anyone that any of them are correct but to make it seem like all narratives are equal - that the obvious one is just as likely as the latest screed from Maggy Symonian.

kravmaga · 06-05-2021 8:20pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

They are key suspects in the Skripal poisoning with a lot of evidence pointing to them. And now the Czechs have linked them to blast in the Czech Republic in 2014.

The assassination attempt on Skripal is an actual credible conspiracy theory. A state attempting to take out an ex-spy for revealing info and secrets to another country (and leaving a calling card)

The Czech Security Intelligence Service (BIS) have confirmed that the 2 Russian GRU agents stayed in Prague for 2 days then made there way to the remote ammunitions warehouse in Vrbetice in rural Czech republic.

Both warehouses were leased by Imex group who are based in the city of Ostrava in Eastern Czech Republic.

A Bulgarian businessman who shall remain un named was involved in the arms trade supplying arms to Ukraine during the height of the conflict in 2013/2014.

Its plain as day to see that Putin wanted this arms supply source to the Ukraine shut down, so sent his 2 GRU agents to take out the warehouses.

This information was kept quiet by BIS for 7 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Vrb%C4%9Btice_ammunition_warehouses_explosions

ShatterAlan · 06-05-2021 8:30pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Putin doesn't seem to care, his domestic popularity was unaffected. He has recently had an opposition politician poisoned, unthinkable in most modern democracies, but not out of place in Putin's Russia, and it hasn't affected him politically

He seems to be far more concerned with info being leaked than he is with international reputation or sanctions

They took 6 years to kill Litvinenko, why is time-scale an issue?

It's likely they'll happen regardless, but I suspect people will think long and hard about "betraying" Russia under Putin. Nasty things have a habit of happening to those people.

I've addressed your questions and points in this thread, you haven't addressed mine

You haven't answered anything except with boilerplate excuses.

Q: "Why would he do it?"
A: "Uh, because he's a dick who doesn't care"

That's a non-answer.

And spy swaps are likely to go ahead despite Russia having a reputation for killing them after the swap? You say it's to send a message to anyone who might dare think about speaking out against The Kremlin. What credible information has Skripal been giving about Moscow after all these years? It's as incredible as the peasants who are still being held in Guantanamo after 20 year as being "threats". They're there because they have Al-Qaeda information or some other rubbish. After 20 years in a cage they still have information about arms dumps. operations? They probably don't even know that Bin Laden is dead. Most of them probably never even heard of the guy as they approach middle-age.

Do you know why Putin's reputation hasn't been damaged by this farce? It's not because the Russian public think that he's great and that they think it's ok to assassinate some apparent old codger who is deemed an enemy of the state. It's because they are intelligent enough not to believe this fairytale, unlike some.

ShatterAlan · 06-05-2021 8:38pm

kravmaga wrote: »

The Czech Security Intelligence Service (BIS) have confirmed that the 2 Russian GRU agents stayed in Prague for 2 days then made there way to the remote ammunitions warehouse in Vrbetice in rural Czech republic.

Both warehouses were leased by Imex group who are based in the city of Ostrava in Eastern Czech Republic.

A Bulgarian businessman who shall remain un named was involved in the arms trade supplying arms to Ukraine during the height of the conflict in 2013/2014.

Its plain as day to see that Putin wanted this arms supply source to the Ukraine shut down, so sent his 2 GRU agents to take out the warehouses.

This information was kept quiet by BIS for 7 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Vrb%C4%9Btice_ammunition_warehouses_explosions

Seems rather clumsy to send two obvious incompetents on mission after mission of such importance. They are high ranking experts yet stay in a kip of a hotel in London, get baked on weed and employ the services of prostitutes. Surely Russia who put the first man and woman into space could come up with a better calibre of operative and not send two buffoons together.

mcmoustache · 06-05-2021 8:45pm

All you're saying is that you can't believe that Russia would do this.

You haven't offered anything except your own incredulity which isn't something that people tend to find convincing. You not understanding why Putin would do this is no more than a wet fart compared to the actual evidence that has been used to support the idea that this was a Russian operation. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you don't think Russia had anything to do with Litvenenko's murder either or with the downing of MH17.

ShatterAlan · 06-05-2021 8:50pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

A good example is infowars. If you look at their world news section, you'll find it littered with Sputnik and RT links. The Russians themselves are more than happy to spread any number of the conspiracy theories that originate in the West too so it's not one-way. It's a symbiotic, contorted human centipede of disinformation.

There's one main difference between the two though, in my opinion. The Alex Jones types tend to have some other narrative, for example that Sandy Hook was a false flag and that the kids were actors. Russia on the other hand offers multiple nonsensical ones, not to convince anyone that any of them are correct but to make it seem like all narratives are equal - that the obvious one is just as likely as the latest screed from Maggy Symonian.

The only reason why Alex Jones and Infowars are still in business is for the exact same reason that the CIA coined the phrase "conspiracy theory" back in the 60's.

Jones spouts an awful lot of crap but when he does touch on the truth or at least gets close to the bone it can all be dismissed as nutjobbery because he talks about chemtrails or other such gibberish. He's more useful on the air to spout rubbish because it discredits all his stuff that might have some merit.

Same reason that the IRA never really tried to off Ian Paisley. He was more valuable spouting his firebrand drivel alive and being laughed at than if he was killed.

ShatterAlan · 06-05-2021 9:28pm

robinph wrote: »

You'd need to start by providing details from your mermaid/ man experts and how they came to their conclusions, details on how the death of Jesus happened and of them being in the vicinity at the time, details in the age of them seeing as the Jesus character is thought to have lived 2000 odd years ago and details on their ability to control icebergs and the strong evidence around the ice berg having been behaving oddly at the time.

Saying you've got experts and strong evidence isn't the same as either actually existing.

Are you going to provide any of the "ALL EVIDENCE POINTING TO RUSSIAN STATE INVOLVEMENT"?

Or not?

You said it. Not me. Now surely you have something. DohnJoe and fellow travellers are quick to demand evidence from everyone. If they were so interested in truth/proof/evidence then I would imagine they would also want you to provide it.

Theresa May coming out with vague, get-out-of-jail phrases like "It is now highly likely that Putin ordered this assassination attempt" is no more proof or evidence than someone saying "I wholeheartedly suspect that the kid at the end of the street stole my bicycle."

Either you have proof/evidence or you don't. And you know something...YOU DON'T.

If Russia was so adamant in sending this message to would-be dissidents to not fuck with Russia then why would they not leave definitive proof that their fingerprints were on the hatchet?

Why wouldn't they announce to the world "We have just killed an ex spy and will do it again. So be forewarned."

ShatterAlan · 06-05-2021 9:42pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

All you're saying is that you can't believe that Russia would do this.

You haven't offered anything except your own incredulity which isn't something that people tend to find convincing. You not understanding why Putin would do this is no more than a wet fart compared to the actual evidence that has been used to support the idea that this was a Russian operation. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you don't think Russia had anything to do with Litvenenko's murder either or with the downing of MH17.

No I am not saying that. I'm pretty certain that most states would kill for expedience, political leverage or to avoid uncomfortable exposure. The US, UK, Russia, China, Japan, Italy, France, Chile, Brazil <insert country here> would certainly sacrifice someone if it was to their advantage.

And you can go out on all the limbs of an octopus family if you want, but I won't be drawn on your other suspicions or have you try to create a circular argument and muddy the waters.

There is ZERO proof or evidence that Russia in general or Putin in particular had anything to do with this alleged case, in spite of robinph's assertions that all evidence points to Russian state culpability, claims on which he is conspicuously silent.

In conclusion...it's an "idea" that it was a Russian operation? Is that like a hunch or a rumour or a suspicion or a thought or an inkling? Do you have a FACT as opposed to a "haunting feeling"?

mcmoustache · 06-05-2021 10:20pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

In conclusion...it's an "idea" that it was a Russian operation? Is that like a hunch or a rumour or a suspicion or a thought or an inkling? Do you have a FACT as opposed to a "haunting feeling"?

They admitted to being in Salisbury before being outed as Russian state security operatives. Since then, it's been discovered that they've been wandering around europe at the same times as other murders and shenanigans. It's far from a "haunted feeling".

Also, if you think that there is zero evidence or proof of Russian involvement, then you don't know what the words "zero", "evidence", "proof" or "involvement" mean because plenty of this has been verified by the Russians themselves.

Dohnjoe · 06-05-2021 10:53pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

You haven't answered anything except with boilerplate excuses.

Q: "Why would he do it?"
A: "Uh, because he's a dick who doesn't care"

That's a non-answer.

Is not what I wrote and I've been addressing your points/questions while you are addressing none of mine

According to you what happened? were the Skripals even poisoned? if so, with what?

If you don't care at all, then why are you even discussing this?

ShatterAlan · 06-05-2021 11:02pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

That's literally arguing from incredulity. Just because you don't understand why things happened that way, it doesn't mean that they didn't happen.

I don't understand that a tooth under a pillow at night can turn into a coin in the morning either. Does that mean things happened that way?

Or are you going to stamp your feet in a rage and demand "what's the alternative theory, then?"

King Mob · 06-05-2021 11:05pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

The only reason why Alex Jones and Infowars are still in business is for the exact same reason that the CIA coined the phrase "conspiracy theory" back in the 60's.

Lol
It can't be that conspiracy theorists are just some times wrong and believe silly things.
That's impossible.
It must be that those conspiracy theorists who believe ridiculous things are all CIA plants...

ShatterAlan · 06-05-2021 11:13pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Is not what I wrote and I've been addressing your points/questions while you are addressing none of mine

According to you what happened? were the Skripals even poisoned? if so, with what?

If you don't care at all, then why are you even discussing this?

I, first of all didn't quote you.

Secondly I don't have to provide you with an alternative just because I don't believe what you believe.

But I'll tell you what....I'll throw a little slack. I'm going to ask YOU to contemplate what might have happened beyond the official narrative. You don't strike me as completely intransigent so I will leave it up to you to contemplate other possibilities.

Outside of Putin sending a pair to kill an ex spy and failing and the story being reported as such, what other contigencies might you think are possible?

ShatterAlan · 06-05-2021 11:24pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

They admitted to being in Salisbury before being outed as Russian state security operatives. Since then, it's been discovered that they've been wandering around europe at the same times as other murders and shenanigans. It's far from a "haunted feeling".

Also, if you think that there is zero evidence or proof of Russian involvement, then you don't know what the words "zero", "evidence", "proof" or "involvement" mean because plenty of this has been verified by the Russians themselves.

This reminds me of that great interrogation scene from the movie "The Usual Suspects".

Cop: "We can put you in Queens on the night of the robbery!"

Hockney: "Really? I live in Queens. Did you figure that out by yourself Einstein? What, do you have a team of monkeys working round the clock on this?"

:pac:

Gerry Conlon admitted to being in Guildford on the night of the bombing. Along with Paul Hill. They were also suspicious characters in that they were Irish and from sh1tty areas in Belfast. Drifters, young punks, with various petty convictions like smoking weed and, if you want to embellish their notoriety and obvious guilt in killing a bunch of people then fill in the box.

Shenanigans, you say.

Dohnjoe · 06-05-2021 11:29pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Secondly I don't have to provide you with an alternative just because I don't believe what you believe.

Actually I'll simplify this even more, Sergei Skripal was poisoned or not?

Or are you in such a state of absolute denial you can't even answer that?

Dohnjoe · 06-05-2021 11:58pm

Ah we're back to tooth fairies I see

ShatterAlan · 07-05-2021 12:26am

Dohnjoe wrote: »

You aren't addressing any of the facts, you aren't addressing questions put to you, you don't tackle any of the evidence you just scoff at it, you haven't attempted to explain anything that happened that day, so far it's just dogmatic denial and disbelief

What happened to Dawn Sturgess? how is the coroner wrong? how is the OPCW wrong? what are your sources?

What are the facts?

You were right that the Skripal house wasn't demolished, only that the roof was removed and the insides were apparently renovated. I'll admit to that.

Now please tell me the FACTS, with proof, behind the Skripal case.

Sergei and Yuila were poisoned? Maybe. No word from them though.
The "Novichok" came into England in Yulia's luggage? That story quickly changed.
Dawn Sturgess is dead? Possibly/Probably
She was a homeless drunk who died because she picked up a cigarette end in a park that had "Novichok" on it? That was quickly changed to her or her homeless partner finding a bottle of perfume in a bin that was "novichok" and her spraying it on herself and ultimately dying. Did the bottle have "Versace" on it, or "Chanel "?
How often have you rummaged around in the trash and found a weird bottle and just inhaled or ingested it?

So our Russian goons wanted to dispose of their remaining poison before they fled the country so they poured it into a perfume bottle and dropped it into a park garbage can?

Or did they want it to be found and kill a few more to copperfasten the "calling card"?

Skripal lived in a housing estate. If the Hutch/Kinahan mob as limited as they are in intelligence and sophistication can drive up to a house in Finglas or Tallaght and blow away somebody and get away with a car in flames a few miles down the road then why would Vlad The Impaler not employ a similar tactic with unlimited money and resources? Pay some trigger men to clip Skripal and be done with it...if that was the M.O. Why all this nerve agent nonsense? You want him dead then just send a few thugs to kill him properly and leave no trace. Better still not even a body.

But it had to be a ridiculous Keystone Kops hit.

The US murder people all the time with drones in other countries like Syria or Yemen or Iraq or Iran. Anyone with an IQ above room temperature knows that their explanations are horseshit but the facts are there. The Saudis killed and chopped up Khassoghi. No bother. He was a threat. The Americans killed Suleimani. They and the Brits are trying to torture Assange to death. They tried to kill Snowden but he outfoxed them .If it's grand to do these things against someone who might speak out then why is it so terrible if the Russkis try to whack someone for apparently doing the same?

Or is that just "whataboutery"?

Dohnjoe · 07-05-2021 12:57am

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Sergei and Yuila were poisoned? Maybe.

You are really, really certain this didn't happen, but when asked questions suddenly you seem very uncertain, why is that?

No word from them though.

Yulia spoke after the incident, read the thread

Dawn Sturgess is dead? Possibly/Probably

Once again this uncertainty.

Is she dead or is she alive? here's a big clue for you, what does the coroners verdict say?

Here's an even bigger clue, there's a coroners verdict, what do you think that means in terms of whether she is dead or alive

ShatterAlan · 07-05-2021 1:31am

Dohnjoe wrote: »

You are really, really certain this didn't happen, but when asked questions suddenly you seem very uncertain, why is that?

Yulia spoke after the incident, read the thread

Once again this uncertainty.

Is she dead or is she alive? here's a big clue for you, what does the coroners verdict say?

Here's an even bigger clue, there's a coroners verdict, what do you think that means in terms of whether she is dead or alive

I started the thread and have read through it.

You're absolutely correct in the use of the word "uncertainty". Can I equate it to another word (or two), i.e. "doubt", "skepticism".

So Dawn Sturgess is dead and from a novichock poisoning, apparently. Why are we going around in circles here?

You asked me to answer you questons but you haven't asked me any relevant questions. I threw a crumb and asked you to contemplate questions that you have been try to ask, i.e. What could be an alternative explanation? So, leaving aside your belief that this was a Putin ordered hit that failed could there be any other possibility?

King Mob · 07-05-2021 1:37am

ShatterAlan wrote: »

. What could be an alternative explanation? So, leaving aside your belief that this was a Putin ordered hit that failed could there be any other possibility?

Well obviously there can't be an alternative.

You can't provide one that sounds sane or plausible, hence all your dodging and whining about not having to provide one.

And since there is no other explanation, using the usual conspiracy theory logic, we must conclude the same as pretty much every government and intelligence service.

Dohnjoe · 07-05-2021 10:12am

ShatterAlan wrote: »

I started the thread and have read through it.

You clearly haven't, e.g. it's been explained that Yulia spoke after the incident, but you ignore that and falsely claim she hasn't.

You're absolutely correct in the use of the word "uncertainty". Can I equate it to another word (or two), i.e. "doubt", "skepticism".

Blindly pouring doubt on everything is not skepticism.

So Dawn Sturgess is dead and from a novichock poisoning, apparently. Why are we going around in circles here?

No circles, you've only been engaging in denial so far. Now you suddenly accept it.

And where did that Novichok come from?

Those two Russian men, the ones caught multiple times on CCTV that day in Salisbury, were they there that day?

ShatterAlan · 07-05-2021 4:15pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Ah we're back to tooth fairies I see

Since you keep using the "incredulity" angle, then unfortunately yes we are. You don't seem to get it so it's going to crop up again and again.

Dohnjoe · 07-05-2021 7:06pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Since you keep using the "incredulity" angle, then unfortunately yes we are. You don't seem to get it so it's going to crop up again and again.

You've just acknowledged a UK resident, Dawn Sturgess died of Novichok poisoning, a rare Russian developed nerve agent, in the UK, any explanation?

This is after an ex-spy and his daughter were also discovered poisoned by Novichok. Any explanation or is that just a coincidence?

Two Russian men also happened to be in Salisbury that day, and left directly after the poisoning occurred, claiming to be "nutrionalists" on national TV, but later discovered to be members of the GRU, literally one of their pictures hanging in a military academy. Explanation for this, or just another coincidence?

Traces of Novichok discovered at the hotel where they stayed, likewise, another remarkable coincidence?

Any ideas on what happened, or you are happy with those coincidences..

ShatterAlan · 07-05-2021 10:09pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

You've just acknowledged a UK resident, Dawn Sturgess died of Novichok poisoning, a rare Russian developed nerve agent, in the UK, any explanation?

This is after an ex-spy and his daughter were also discovered poisoned by Novichok. Any explanation or is that just a coincidence?

Two Russian men also happened to be in Salisbury that day, and left directly after the poisoning occurred, claiming to be "nutrionalists" on national TV, but later discovered to be members of the GRU, literally one of their pictures hanging in a military academy. Explanation for this, or just another coincidence?

Traces of Novichok discovered at the hotel where they stayed, likewise, another remarkable coincidence?

Any ideas on what happened, or you are happy with those coincidences..

No I did not. I never acknowledged that. Tell me and others when I acknowledged any of the above.

ShatterAlan · 07-05-2021 10:36pm

I have a novel suggestion.

Since the defenders of the official narrative consistently demand an alternative to what they hold dear and true, I would ask THEM if they could contemplate an alternative.

It doesn't have to be true....it doesn't even have to be plausible, but all I ask is that it might be possible.

Fighting Tao · 07-05-2021 10:48pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

I have a novel suggestion.

Since the defenders of the official narrative consistently demand an alternative to what they hold dear and true, I would ask THEM if they could contemplate an alternative.

It doesn't have to be true....it doesn't even have to be plausible, but all I ask is that it might be possible.

This is an odd post. You have been asked for an alternative so put it forward. How can people contemplate whatever is in your head when you haven’t told them?

mcmoustache · 07-05-2021 10:55pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

No I did not. I never acknowledged that. Tell me and others when I acknowledged any of the above.

It's really hard to debate with you when you don't provide your theory. I understand why you can't do it but it's just difficult to argue rationally when your position hasn't gotten past the "I don't believe it" stage of thinking.

I understand why you don't believe it. There's a whole state-sponsored opinion-manipulation program who's goal is to sow doubt on everything that that particular state is involved in and they use social media and a compliant press to achieve those goals. Much like how consent for the Iraq war was manufactured. Instead of the sheep supporting and cheering on the war in Iraq, they're now convinced that invading Ukraine was cool, that Russian's had nothing to do with MH17, the Skripals, or Litvinenko and that Putin looks sexy.

You can spot it a mile away.

Edit: I had to add this because it just showed on my twitter.

E0y3ET8VoAEkZy1?format=png

Dohnjoe · 08-05-2021 12:25am

mcmoustache wrote: »

It's really hard to debate with you when you don't provide your theory. I understand why you can't do it but it's just difficult to argue rationally when your position hasn't gotten past the "I don't believe it" stage of thinking.

I understand why you don't believe it. There's a whole state-sponsored opinion-manipulation program who's goal is to sow doubt on everything that that particular state is involved in and they use social media and a compliant press to achieve those goals. Much like how consent for the Iraq war was manufactured. Instead of the sheep supporting and cheering on the war in Iraq, they're now convinced that invading Ukraine was cool, that Russian's had nothing to do with MH17, the Skripals, or Litvinenko and that Putin looks sexy.

You can spot it a mile away.

Edit: I had to add this because it just showed on my twitter.

Remarkably accurate.

Dohnjoe · 08-05-2021 12:46am

ShatterAlan wrote: »

No I did not. I never acknowledged that. Tell me and others when I acknowledged any of the above.

So Dawn Sturgess is dead and from a novichock poisoning, apparently.

It's really quite simple. Dawn Sturgess is died in hospital in Wiltshire in July 2018
(source, source) if you claim otherwise, provide evidence of it.

She died when exposed to the nerve agent Novichok, this was confirmed by the DSTL in Porton Down and the OPCW, (source, source) if you are claiming otherwise, provide evidence of it

If you can't provide any credible evidence, you aren't challenging this information, then what's to discuss?

ShatterAlan · 08-05-2021 2:05am

Fighting Tao wrote: »

This is an odd post. You have been asked for an alternative so put it forward. How can people contemplate whatever is in your head when you haven’t told them?

Let's just think for a moment.

Is there another possibilty?

King Mob · 08-05-2021 2:30am

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Let's just think for a moment.

Is there another possibilty?

No, obviously not.

If there was, you wouldn't be dancing around providing it.
You can't provide any alternative because even you recognise any such alternative would be ridiculous and without evidence and would fall apart with any level of scrutiny.
You can't provide an alternative because the conspiracy mongers you follow don't provide you with one for the same reason.

So no, we can't provide an alternative either.

ShatterAlan · 08-05-2021 3:03am

So, the Russians tried, and failed, to kill somebody as reported.

Are there other possibilities?

King Mob · 08-05-2021 3:17am

ShatterAlan wrote: »

So, the Russians tried, and failed, to kill somebody as reported.

Are there other possibilities?

No.

Why are you ignoring Dohnjoe's previous post now?

Fighting Tao · 08-05-2021 6:08am

ShatterAlan wrote: »

So, the Russians tried, and failed, to kill somebody as reported.

Are there other possibilities?

Not that anyone else in the thread can see. Obviously you think there is so post it.

ShatterAlan · 17-05-2021 12:22am

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Not that anyone else in the thread can see. Obviously you think there is so post it.

I don't have to post alternatives. That's not how DOUBT works.

If you posit that xyz happened and I have skepticism about what you say then the onus is NOT on me to provide an alternative explanation.

The narrative is that Mary got pregnant without having sexual intercourse. I don't believe it for a moment. Are you going to stamp your feet and demand that I provide an alternative hypothesis? Maybe you will. But it's not my job. Of course DJ will come along and say that just because I don't believe that Mary got pregnant without having sex than I am argiung from "incredulity". After all, she gave birth so what else could have happened?

I don't believe that Zeus pulled Morocco and Spain apart. Am I arguing from "incredulity"? Just because I don't believe it doesn't mean that it didn't happen?

After all the two continents are apart. The evidence is overwhelming that they are.
I just don't believe that Zeus pulled tham apart.

I don't believe a lot of things. I don't believe that paper can survive a fireball. You might, I don't.

King Mob · 17-05-2021 12:28am

ShatterAlan wrote: »

I don't have to post alternatives. That's not how DOUBT works.

If you posit that xyz happened and I have skepticism about what you say then the onus is NOT on me to provide an alternative explanation.

But as we've said we can't think of any alternatives either.
So therefore there isn't any as even you aren't able to provide any.

And since there are no alternatives, and the only option is that they were killed by Russian agents, then we have to reach that conclusion. Right?

The Skripal Salisbury Spooks

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