The Last Dance (Netflix)

Conte.. · 20-05-2020 10:53am

Weird that MJ and Kerr's father's were murdered

Larry birds father killed himself , you never know

yabadabado · 20-05-2020 10:53am

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Was a little surprised there wasnt more from Ron Harper. His only piece to camera was from when he played with the Cavs against the Bulls a few years before he joined.

Would have expected some more from him as he was a starting player for them in the last 3 championships teams .Does he do.much media work or interviews?He used to have a pretty bad stammer ,maybe that is the reason ?

Alf Veedersane · 20-05-2020 11:14am

yabadabado wrote: »

Would have expected some more from him as he was a starting player for them in the last 3 championships teams .Does he do.much media work or interviews?He used to have a pretty bad stammer ,maybe that is the reason ?

I think he was an ambassador of sorts for the NBA, travelling around to different countries. Saw a video of him in Germany and he was ok in the interview, certainly seems to have improved the stammer hugely. He was in a lot of footage and seemed to get on with Jordan so was surprised he wasn't there.

blue note · 20-05-2020 12:44pm

Great documentary - I really enjoyed it. MJ does come across like the absolute win at all costs sports stars like tiger or lance Armstrong. And I'd be surprised if he doesn't have that in his personality.

The one thing I found boarderline dishonest in the doc was the omission of any mention of his family until the last episode. They painted this picture that he was completely alone in the world really, but in reality he had a wife for the majority of it. I know the focus of the doc was on his career, but if his relationship with his parents and security guards was relevant so was his relationship with his wife. To not mention it at all was poor.

Clareman · 20-05-2020 1:53pm

There was clearly a few different interviews with Jordan, listening to the podcasts he was given the "theme" to each session so he would have had the chance to prepare whereas looking at the other interviews it seemed to be a once off for the others.

I thought that him saying they could go for 7 when he nearly cut a finger off with a cigar cutter which meant that he wouldn't have been able to play the following season was a bit of selective history. Saying that, with Rodman going a bit mad and Pippen being injury prone I don't think it would have been possible to go for 7, they would have needed to find 2 replacements for those 2 to start with.

Chuck Noland · 20-05-2020 2:10pm

Clareman wrote: »

There was clearly a few different interviews with Jordan, listening to the podcasts he was given the "theme" to each session so he would have had the chance to prepare whereas looking at the other interviews it seemed to be a once off for the others.

I thought that him saying they could go for 7 when he nearly cut a finger off with a cigar cutter which meant that he wouldn't have been able to play the following season was a bit of selective history. Saying that, with Rodman going a bit mad and Pippen being injury prone I don't think it would have been possible to go for 7, they would have needed to find 2 replacements for those 2 to start with.

I think the talk of 7 was based around how they felt immediately after the 3 peat was completed. The cigar cutter finger thing hadn’t occurred at that point. I think once PJackson walked away any hope of the team staying together and winning 7 left with him

The Nal · 20-05-2020 2:14pm

Hopefully not the way documentaries go from a journalistic point of view but an entertaining one sided puff piece nonetheless.

innuendo141 · 20-05-2020 2:16pm

I very much enjoyed how much context it put to Rodman appearing on Monday Nitro back in 98, and even moreso to Karl Malone coming in not long after! Mental stuff.

Haven't enjoyed a documentary that much in a long time.

Alf Veedersane · 20-05-2020 2:33pm

Clareman wrote: »

I thought that him saying they could go for 7 when he nearly cut a finger off with a cigar cutter which meant that he wouldn't have been able to play the following season was a bit of selective history. Saying that, with Rodman going a bit mad and Pippen being injury prone I don't think it would have been possible to go for 7, they would have needed to find 2 replacements for those 2 to start with.

I posted something from Jerry Krause's point of view yesterday and how Pippen had had two surgeries in two years, Rodman's lifestyle catching up with him, Longley's ankles on borrowed time, etc and, to be fair, there is logic there.

The major flaw with that argument is that JK should have been looking for and bringing in replacements to integrate sooner than he evidently did

yabadabado · 20-05-2020 2:47pm

They would probably have needed to replace Pippen,Rodman and Longley as starters for various reasons.

That would be a huge task ,if they didnt replace them then they would have been giving them all very lucrative 1 year deals and also trying to bring in some fresh players for the bench. I think the Bulls had the highest salary in the league at that point.

Pippen would surely have looked for at least 15m for that one season.

The draft in the US makes it very difficult to build on winning teams .

Alf Veedersane · 20-05-2020 2:55pm

yabadabado wrote: »

The draft in the US makes it very difficult to build on winning teams .

I wasn't sure if that was a factor but it did cross my mind. And salaries caps etc make it different to football, for example, where you can just add to your squad and bring players in in advance and have them ready to replace players months/a year later.

gourcuff · 20-05-2020 3:00pm

its a highly flawed piece of work from a journalistic standpoint, many people have come out against it as a puff piece, cool for what it was but felt a bit like controlled propoganda for MJ, the editorial control element diminishes it

Clareman · 20-05-2020 3:00pm

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I posted something from Jerry Krause's point of view yesterday and how Pippen had had two surgeries in two years, Rodman's lifestyle catching up with him, Longley's ankles on borrowed time, etc and, to be fair, there is logic there.

The major flaw with that argument is that JK should have been looking for and bringing in replacements to integrate sooner than he evidently did

It's always an extremely hard arguement to make about bringing in replacements, the likes of Ferguson managed it by bringing in 1 or 2 players at a time but it's awful hard to drop a top player to give someone else a chance as you'll just go straight back to the tried and tested if it doesn't work first time, with a salary cap you are going to struggle to pay someone to be backup as well. The US draft system is a great leveller as well, by the Bulls winning every year meant they had the last pick in the draft so the would stuggle.

In my opinion it was the perfect ending for them, they had played the maximum amount of games 3 years in a row, had the worst pick in the draft 3 years in a row and had an aging team who needed to be paid a lot more, by having a baddie like JK to blame is handy.

boosabum · 20-05-2020 3:08pm

gourcuff wrote: »

its a highly flawed piece of work from a journalistic standpoint, many people have come out against it as a puff piece, cool for what it was but felt a bit like controlled propoganda for MJ, the editorial control element diminishes it

Watched this and the second season of 30 for 30 documentaries. You'll find that a lot of what appears about Jordan in last dance has the opposition perspective in the 30 for 30 stories. There is one on the Detroit pistons which i think shows Isiah Thomas and in a much better light..
Also one on the guy who got Jordan his first Nike deal, he was able to repeat this trick multiple times.
I think Kerr came across well, he managed two more titles as a player and as a coach almost eclipsed the Bulls legacy

yabadabado · 20-05-2020 3:26pm

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I wasn't sure if that was a factor but it did cross my mind. And salaries caps etc make it different to football, for example, where you can just add to your squad and bring players in in advance and have them ready to replace players months/a year later.

The salary cap was more robust back then as well. iirc they have made several changes to it since and its classed as a soft cap now compared to other sports.

The draft and the cap are a great way of levelling the playing field.

Still Ill · 20-05-2020 3:29pm

Thought it strange they didn't do more of a summary on everyone's careers post 98. Jordan actually came out of retirement and played 3 more seasons with the Washington Wizards.

Watched Jordan, Pippen and Rodman's HOF acceptance speeches last night. Rodman was pretty emotional up there and really laid himself bare. Interesting that Jordan wasn't in attendance for it.
Jordan's speech was strange. Was thanking people for pushing him throughout his career, but kinda came across as settling old scores.

Brock Turnpike · 20-05-2020 3:42pm

Not sure on all those saying Pippen would've had to be replaced if they were going for 7. From a financial standpoint; maybe. But from a playing perspective, I don't think so. Look at his stats and performances for the Trailblazers against Kobe in 2000.

Clareman · 20-05-2020 3:44pm

Considering that there was a lockout the following season I'd imagine there wouldn't have been much wiggle room for player salaries.

EagererBeaver · 20-05-2020 3:49pm

yabadabado wrote: »

The salary cap was more robust back then as well. iirc they have made several changes to it since and its classed as a soft cap now compared to other sports.

The draft and the cap are a great way of levelling the playing field.

It has long been a soft cap. Pippen had Bird rights (he was drafted in 87). If Reinsdorf wanted to pay him and keep them together he could have.

amdublin · 20-05-2020 3:50pm

Anyone know if I can order the soundtrack to the series on CD?

yabadabado · 20-05-2020 3:51pm

He played 2 seasons with Washington but it all ended on a sour note so I can see why they/he didn't have any of that included.

Rodman and Pippen didnt fare out too well either post Bulls.Particualy Rodman, he probably should have retired but made just a handful of apperances in 2 years and called it a day.

Pippen had a decent few years in Portland after a bad season in Houston.Was always going to be tough get anything near the high of the Bulls but he did at least sign a few lucrative contracts.He even got a good deal with the bulls on his return.

yabadabado · 20-05-2020 3:52pm

amdublin wrote: »

Anyone know if I can order the soundtrack to the series on CD?

Not really the answer but the soundtrack is on Spotify .

Alf Veedersane · 20-05-2020 4:58pm

Sirius, the music for the Bulls going on court...was that used in a TV show as well? I have a vague recollection of it being used in something far removed from sport as well.

The Nal · 20-05-2020 5:05pm

The real mccoy 91 wrote: »

Theres a piece on an interview with Horace grant in the guardian

“I would say [the documentary was] entertaining, but we know, who was there as teammates, that about 90% of it [was] BS in terms of the realness of it,” Grant said in an interview on ESPN 1000’s Kap and Co radio show on Tuesday. “It wasn’t real – because a lot of things [Jordan] said to some of his teammates, that his teammates went back at him. But all of that was kind of edited out of the documentary, if you want to call it a documentary.”

Mentions pippin isn't happy about how he is perceived in it either.

'Lie, lie, lie': Former Jordan teammate gives withering assessment of The Last Dance

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/may/19/horace-grant-michael-jordan-the-last-dance-documentary-espn?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

While obviously is was made for Jordan I hadnt seen it mentioned anywhere that his production team were a part of it. Doesn't massively change my opinion it was still brilliant but I'm left feeling like theres alot more that we didnt get which is a bit annoying

Ken Burns Slams Michael Jordan Doc ‘Last Dance:’ ‘Not the Way You Do Good Journalism

'Lie, lie, lie': Former Jordan teammate gives withering assessment of The Last Dance

Dennis Rodman defends Scottie Pippen from 'Last Dance' criticism

Theres more than a whiff of BS from the whole thing.

Still Ill · 20-05-2020 5:16pm

The Nal wrote: »

Theres more than a whiff of BS from the whole thing.

That article says in the second paragraph that the guy who 'slammed' it did't even watch it.
It's a sports documentary.. Who cares if it's not 100% the full picture? They showed Jordan in bad light plenty of times during it. Most important thing is that it's entertaining and it certainly ticked that box for most.

Alf Veedersane · 20-05-2020 5:17pm

The Nal wrote: »

Ken Burns Slams Michael Jordan Doc ‘Last Dance:’ ‘Not the Way You Do Good Journalism

'Lie, lie, lie': Former Jordan teammate gives withering assessment of The Last Dance

Dennis Rodman defends Scottie Pippen from 'Last Dance' criticism

Theres more than a whiff of BS from the whole thing.

The headline on the last one is misleading because Rodman says it shows people what Pippen went through. The surgery and sitting out the last play against the Knicks were wrong choices but it does show how much value he had for the team.

Horace Grant didn't like being called the leak but Jordan wasn't the only one who thought it

yabadabado · 20-05-2020 5:17pm

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Sirius, the music for the Bulls going on court...was that used in a TV show as well? I have a vague recollection of it being used in something far removed from sport as well.

It was in an episode of Cobra Kai !

Bandana boy · 20-05-2020 5:26pm

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Sirius, the music for the Bulls going on court...was that used in a TV show as well? I have a vague recollection of it being used in something far removed from sport as well.

Iron Maiden kind of ripped it off for Moonchild
Moon child is often used by Man City before a game so you might have heard it on Match days

amdublin · 20-05-2020 5:33pm

yabadabado wrote: »

Not really the answer but the soundtrack is on Spotify .

Saw that. Am old

Would like it on cd

Clareman · 20-05-2020 8:35pm

I listened to part of the episode 11 of the podcast, the director pointed out that they were trying to do a show about the Bulls so that's why they didn't have MJ's wife on it that it would have been too much of an MJ thing, if they could spend more time on the how they'd have put more time into the profiles of the other players but MJ was the star. Oh yeah, the reason Carmen Electra was interview was because she was there rather than being Rodman's wife.

Muahahaha · 20-05-2020 10:31pm

blue note wrote: »

Great documentary - I really enjoyed it. MJ does come across like the absolute win at all costs sports stars like tiger or lance Armstrong. And I'd be surprised if he doesn't have that in his personality.

yeah you can also see some similarities there with Roy Keane, both of them had bullying type leadership styles as did Lance. Would imagine Christiano Ronaldo is similar.

That bullying type leadership might not always be a good look on camera but ultimately what they're doing is driving everyone around them to lift their game and perform better.

Alf Veedersane · 20-05-2020 10:42pm

Ah here, Lance Armstrong has no place in this thread as someone driven. He was a bully because he wanted people to dedicate themselves to him winning and and if you became too good, he'd try tear you down.

yabadabado · 20-05-2020 10:53pm

Comparing Lance Armstrong to nearly any other sports person is a disservice to them. The man is a complete disgrace, not only was he a drugs cheat,he made it his goal to try and destroy people who opposed him.

He wasnt some kinda ,ill drag all you up a level or two for the greater good scenario, that was the work of a sociopath imo.

tedpan · 20-05-2020 11:18pm

Anyone else bought some Air Jordans? The resale market is booming now because of the show.

dirkmeister · 20-05-2020 11:23pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

yeah you can also see some similarities there with Roy Keane, both of them had bullying type leadership styles as did Lance. Would imagine Christiano Ronaldo is similar.

That bullying type leadership might not always be a good look on camera but ultimately what they're doing is driving everyone around them to lift their game and perform better.

The Captain Class by Sam Walker is a good read on leadership styles.

He said Keane’s style was detrimental to teammates, e.g THAT interview, and if I remember correctly he said Jordan was similar.

Walker said teams performed better when their captain was a “water carrier” like Phillip Lahm or Carlos Puyol

ahnowbrowncow · 20-05-2020 11:29pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

yeah you can also see some similarities there with Roy Keane, both of them had bullying type leadership styles as did Lance. Would imagine Christiano Ronaldo is similar.

That bullying type leadership might not always be a good look on camera but ultimately what they're doing is driving everyone around them to lift their game and perform better.

That type of leadership generally only works in the short term as it causes low morale, lack of confidence etc.

MJ was authoritarian rather than authoritive/assertive. Difference being that you can be demanding and bully your teammates or you can be demanding and encourage your teammates.

Phil Jackson did a great job managing that team considering how MJ's teammates viewed him.

Brock Turnpike · 20-05-2020 11:31pm

dirkmeister wrote: »

The Captain Class by Sam Walker is a good read on leadership styles.

He said Keane’s style was detrimental to teammates, e.g THAT interview, and if I remember correctly he said Jordan was similar.

Walker said teams performed better when their captain was a “water carrier” like Phillip Lahm or Carlos Puyol

Keane and Jordan won a ****load.

Puyol and Lahm won a ****load.

Not sure how he reached the conclusion that one style was better than the other.

yabadabado · 20-05-2020 11:34pm

tedpan wrote: »

Anyone else bought some Air Jordans? The resale market is booming now because of the show.

I saw a pair of match worn were sold for 500k a few days ago.

I actually bought a pair of Jordan 1s a few months ago ,one of my favourites .

tedpan · 20-05-2020 11:43pm

yabadabado wrote:

I actually bought a pair of Jordan 1s a few months ago ,one of my favourites .

Yeah, like the Jordan 6s most, not sure I could get away with wearing them though. The 1 Highs are up there in my rankings too.

Brock Turnpike · 21-05-2020 8:04am

Looking forward to seeing all the 30-40 year olds going around Ireland wearing their Air Jordan's and bootcut jeans.

irishguitarlad · 21-05-2020 8:54am

I was just reading up on Hakeem Olajuwon's career there, there is definitely material for an ESPN 30 for 30. Great story.

tedpan · 21-05-2020 8:57am

Brock Turnpike wrote:

Looking forward to seeing all the 30-40 year olds going around Ireland wearing their Air Jordan's and bootcut jeans.

Not sure about the bootcuts, but you've basically described me

Wuff Wuff · 21-05-2020 9:00am

irishguitarlad wrote: »

I was just reading up on Hakeem Olajuwon's career there, there is definitely material for an ESPN 30 for 30. Great story.

mad how the Rockets couldve had Hakeem (no. 1 pick), Jordan (no.2) and Clyde Drexler in 84 but they wouldnt trade Ralph Sampson to Portland.

irishguitarlad · 21-05-2020 9:12am

Wuff Wuff wrote: »

mad how the Rockets couldve had Hakeem (no. 1 pick), Jordan (no.2) and Clyde Drexler in 84 but they wouldnt trade Ralph Sampson to Portland.

That is crazy, Jordan would have about 10 championships now haha

yabadabado · 21-05-2020 9:45am

irishguitarlad wrote: »

I was just reading up on Hakeem Olajuwon's career there, there is definitely material for an ESPN 30 for 30. Great story.

Its not about Olajuwon in particular but there is a 30 for 30 about his college team.He features in it a fair bit as does Drexler.

Wuff Wuff · 21-05-2020 10:04am

yabadabado wrote: »

Its not about Olajuwon in particular but there is a 30 for 30 about his college team.He features in it a fair bit as does Drexler.

speaking of college teams the 30 for 30 on the Michigan Fab Five is great

Alf Veedersane · 21-05-2020 10:32am

Decent doc on Iverson on Netflix as well.

yabadabado · 21-05-2020 10:50am

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Decent doc on Iverson on Netflix as well.

Yeah thats good.Actually think all the basketball ones are good.
Reggie Miller,Ken Bias and the one about Divac/Petrovic really stand out.

30 for 30 really was an unbelievably high quality series.

Clareman · 21-05-2020 10:51am

They did mention that Jordan was "only" the third pick but that if the draft had taken place after the Olympics he would have been a first pick, not saying that 3rd is low but it's not level 199 like Brady. Interesting as well that the 2 players picked before him were 7 footers, Charles Barkley was "only" picked at 5, some draft.

Wuff Wuff · 21-05-2020 10:53am

Clareman wrote: »

They did mention that Jordan was "only" the third pick but that if the draft had taken place after the Olympics he would have been a first pick, not saying that 3rd is low but it's not level 199 like Brady. Interesting as well that the 2 players picked before him were 7 footers, Charles Barkley was "only" picked at 5, some draft.

yeah Portland needed a big man so took Sam Bowie instead of Jordan

The Last Dance (Netflix)

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