Updated GRO

shanew · 24-07-2014 8:49am

desbrook wrote: »

How much did the project cost?

( lights blue touchpaper and runs!)

The index was already created and available for internal use by the GRO, so should only have been IT costs

CassieManson · 24-07-2014 12:44pm

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

I'm still nervous, but pleased to see the message just now:

"Civil Records Search temporarily unavailable - further update will be provided"

I don't think the message has changed at all since last Friday. And there have been no futher updates. Not too hopeful about the word "temporarily".

Jellybaby1 · 24-07-2014 1:31pm

I really hoped you wouldn't say that!

pjproby · 24-07-2014 6:19pm

At the very least, one of them, should issue a comprehensive statement, explaining the issue.

Waitsian · 25-07-2014 10:44am

http://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2014/07/latest-on-irishgenealogyie-bmd-indexes.html

Nothing new really but at least she's trying to get answers. As was stated previously we shouldn't have to go looking for update news, someone should issue a clarifying statement.

Edit: I see RootsIreland are soon to have a shiny new website. I don't suppose there's any chance they can stop ripping off their customers to go along with it? :rolleyes:

Ponster · 25-07-2014 10:56am

mod9maple wrote: »

Edit: I see RootsIreland are soon to have a shiny new website. I don't suppose there's any chance they can stop ripping off their customers to go along with it? :rolleyes:

€5 for an instant cert compared to €4 + fax for one that you'll have to wait over a week for isn't take bad IMHO. If you purchase €50 credit then each cert works out at about €2.80

pinkypinky · 25-07-2014 11:03am

Ponster wrote: »

€5 for an instant cert compared to €4 + fax for one that you'll have to wait over a week for isn't take bad IMHO. If you purchase €50 credit then each cert works out at about €2.80

Well that would be fine if it was a digital copy of the cert and not an unverifiable transcript.

Waitsian · 25-07-2014 11:04am

Ponster wrote: »

€5 for an instant cert compared to €4 + fax for one that you'll have to wait over a week for isn't take bad IMHO. If you purchase €50 credit then each cert works out at about €2.80

Their search facility for church records leaves a lot to be desired and means you're shooting in the dark looking for records, and end up wasting money on certs you don't want.

shanew · 25-07-2014 11:49am

you can often narrow down a lot of detail on the RootsIreland Index without having to pay for a full transcript - e.g. the denomination/parish or district, parents names on RC baptisms etc.

Hermy · 25-07-2014 3:27pm

Having paid for a transcript on Roots I see that is only available for a limited time.
No other website I know of does that.

VicWynne · 25-07-2014 9:44pm

It's yet another thing that really bugs me about RootsIreland... Just make sure you save it - I usually print it to a pdf file...

CassieManson · 28-07-2014 12:42pm

pjproby wrote: »

At the very least, one of them, should issue a comprehensive statement, explaining the issue.

Interesting letter in the Irish Times on Saturday from the Press Office of the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht

Provides some clarification on the issues

www.irishtimes.com/debate/letters/genealogy-and-protecting-data-1.1878388

Jellybaby1 · 28-07-2014 9:47pm

But had that editorial not been published in the first place on the 23rd July, the Department would still have remained silent. Still no explanation on the website.

pedroeibar1 · 28-07-2014 10:30pm

J Grenham has a piece in today's IT

jos28 · 29-07-2014 5:49pm

Very unhappy about losing the civil records :mad:
I'm delighted I grabbed what I could while we still had access.

I managed to find a birth record for my GG Grandfather but unfortunately didn't keep the details so I can order the cert. Any kind soul able to help me find details for Michael Evans born Dublin 1881 ? Parents are James and Kate. He is not showing up in the Church records

Rox_88 · 29-07-2014 5:54pm

jos28 wrote: »

Very unhappy about losing the civil records :mad:
I'm delighted I grabbed what I could while we still had access.

I managed to find a birth record for my GG Grandfather but unfortunately didn't keep the details so I can order the cert. Any kind soul able to help me find details for Michael Evans born Dublin 1881 ? Parents are James and Kate. He is not showing up in the Church records

This is the only one I can find:

First Name Michael
Last Name Evans
Year 1881
Registered Quarter/Year Jan - Mar 1881
Registration District Dublin North
Volume 2
Page 533

jos28 · 29-07-2014 6:02pm

Thanks a million Rox. I suspect that might be this Michael Evans which unfortunately not the one I am looking for. I suppose it's worth ordering the cert either way

http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/73e4470199222

Rox_88 · 29-07-2014 7:54pm

I noticed when I searched that there was also a death record for Michael Evans b.1881, d.1883 in North Dublin so more than likely the same child and definitely not your GG Grandfather

jos28 · 29-07-2014 8:48pm

Rox_88 wrote: »

I noticed when I searched that there was also a death record for Michael Evans b.1881, d.1883 in North Dublin so more than likely the same child and definitely not your GG Grandfather

Great detective work there Rox and much appreciated. Good news for me but certainly not for the poor child. Thanks for all your help

Waitsian · 30-07-2014 9:53pm

Has there still been no official government statement as regards the online indexes? What the heck are they doing?

Hermy · 30-07-2014 10:32pm

Now, now! At least they're being consistent.:(

Jellybaby1 · 30-07-2014 10:48pm

Consistently silent!

pedroeibar1 · 30-07-2014 10:59pm

Hermy wrote: »

Now, now! At least they're being consistent.:(

Yes, and will remain consistent until they return from holidays in mid September.:rolleyes:

Jellybaby1 · 31-07-2014 12:45am

Oh flip!

jos28 · 31-07-2014 3:29pm

This wait is so annoying. It's like giving a child a toy on Christmas Day and taking it back on Stephen's Day !
There we were, all having fun filling in the gaps in our trees and now - nothing !
Can they at least put the database back online with date restrictions until they sort the mess out.
Any ideas who we could bombard with emails/letters to get it moving again ?

pedroeibar1 · 31-07-2014 5:57pm

I skimmed through what Grenham wote - it appears it is a Data Protection issue so it will involve that office and from the Govt side the Attorney General's office, along with legions of civil servants and 'experts'. A$$ covering at its worst, at a time when the country is trying to develop a genealogical tourist industry.

jos28 · 31-07-2014 6:52pm

I have a contact in the Data Protection Office, must make a phone call to see what's happening

Jellybaby1 · 01-08-2014 12:05am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I skimmed through what Grenham wote - it appears it is a Data Protection issue so it will involve that office and from the Govt side the Attorney General's office, along with legions of civil servants and 'experts'. A$$ covering at its worst, at a time when the country is trying to develop a genealogical tourist industry.

Whoda guessed!

Hermy · 01-08-2014 9:21am

jos28 wrote: »

This wait is so annoying. It's like giving a child a toy on Christmas Day and taking it back on Stephen's Day...

It's more like telling a child a week before Christmas that they might get a toy sometime soon and then months and months and months pass before the toy appears suddenly only to disappear again just as suddenly.

The worst thing about it is that I had all this information on screen and I didn't think to save some of my searches. Quite a number of the surnames I'm researching are not that common so it would have been practical to do so.

Jellybaby1 · 01-08-2014 10:16am

Hermy wrote: »

It's more like telling a child a week before Christmas that they might get a toy sometime soon and then months and months and months pass before the toy appears suddenly only to disappear again just as suddenly...

Now just what do you think that child would do under those circumstances? Scream the house down! Lets! Who should we write (scream) to then? Which department, minister, whatever? Oh yeah, they're all on their holidays now, aren't they, so the child cools down in a few months! :mad:

jos28 · 01-08-2014 10:27am

Hermy wrote: »

The worst thing about it is that I had all this information on screen and I didn't think to save some of my searches. Quite a number of the surnames I'm researching are not that common so it would have been practical to do so.

Me too :mad:
I just saved the URLS and a fat lot of good they are now !

Hermy · 01-08-2014 11:19am

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

...so the child cools down in a few months! :mad:

Except we still have those awful Captcha's to remind us of the whole mess!

shanew · 01-08-2014 12:11pm

there's a small plus side to the changes that I dont think was mentioned, I think it's recent - they modified the image screens so that it's easier to 'browse' the register images. They previous images were direct pdf links so you had to modify the url to browse to see previous/next pages, or look for the intro pages in the register, now it's easier. They copied my method for browsing directories etc...!!

CassieManson · 01-08-2014 3:54pm

shanew wrote: »

there's a small plus side to the changes that I dont think was mentioned, I think it's recent - they modified the image screens so that it's easier to 'browse' the register images. They previous images were direct pdf links so you had to modify the url to browse to see previous/next pages, or look for the intro pages in the register, now it's easier. They copied my method for browsing directories etc...!!

Wow did not spot that, that is brilliant! Thanks for pointing it out.

Waitsian · 01-08-2014 3:59pm

Well yeah that is good, but why only images for Dublin, and none for Kerry? very frustrating. The sooner that new bill gets through the better.

blue banana · 08-08-2014 11:11am

mod9maple wrote: »

Well yeah that is good, but why only images for Dublin, and none for Kerry? very frustrating. The sooner that new bill gets through the better.

My understanding of this, is that the Dept of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht needed to purchase the microfilms from the NLI in order to computerise the records, for example, for Dublin and Cork & Ross. I don't think they obtained the microfilms for the Diocese of Kerry as these records had already been indexed and computerised by a FÁS project in Killarney and therefore were not computerised from microfilm in Bangladesh like most of the other records on irishgenealogy.ie. Evidence that microfilm was not used for Kerry is also clear by the fact that the records for some Kerry parishes go up to 1910/1911, much later than the 1880 date of the microfilms.

I don't know if the Department ever intend on making the microfilm images available for Kerry.

Jellybaby1 · 08-08-2014 7:23pm

Every time I see a new post in here I think its good news about the civil records!

CassieManson · 08-08-2014 7:27pm

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Every time I see a new post in here I think its good news about the civil records!

Me too! Obviously no "quick fix" on the cards!

BigCon · 29-08-2014 3:14pm

Any news on this? Surely it can't take that long to edit the site so that only searches before 1914 show up?

Waitsian · 29-08-2014 7:16pm

BigCon wrote: »

Any news on this? Surely it can't take that long to edit the site so that only searches before 1914 show up?

Aren't all the decision makers on their hols?

BigCon · 29-08-2014 8:19pm

mod9maple wrote: »

Aren't all the decision makers on their hols?

For a month?

Jellybaby1 · 29-08-2014 8:27pm

Or more!

rxan90 · 31-08-2014 6:24am

Words can't even describe how saddened I am that they took all that away before I even had a chance to know about it! How useful it would have been, up to the present day (!) to fill in the blanks on my tree. I can only hope that by some miracle, this commissioner will sod off and let the records return FULLY and uncensored back to where they belong. Grrrrr.

rxan90 · 31-08-2014 6:33am

Actually, why IS it a problem that it lists births deaths and marriages up to the present day in the first place? I noticed that on the ITV show 'Long Lost Family', the researches are able to go somewhere and type names of people who are very much (usually) alive and well and find the records. Why is this not a problem in the UK but IS here? Billy Hawkes I hate, hate, HATE you!

KildareFan · 31-08-2014 9:54am

It's seen as a data protection issue. A lot of banks & insurance companies use your mother's maiden name and your date of birth for security questions. If these details become readily available, they'll have to start asking questions with answers which are more difficult to find out - like what's the name of your first dog, or your favourite teacher, or the result you got in Irish in the leaving cert or whatever...

I'm lamenting that I didn't jump faster when all the information was out there.

Hermy · 31-08-2014 9:58am

I do wonder why it is that Ancestry can provide UK birth, marriage and death records up to about 2005 but we can't do the same. But I don't blame Billy Hawkes for any of this - he is just doing his job. The blame lies solely with those at irishgenealogy.ie who didn't do their homework before putting up the records.

But I remain as frustrated as the rest at the absence of these records, as when presented as they were online they allowed me to make findings that would have been nigh on impossible by just visiting the GRO in Werburgh Street.

pedroeibar1 · 31-08-2014 10:49am

Billy Hawkes has been a career civil servant and in fairness is one of the very best from that area. He is covering Data Comm’s / taxpayers’ collective a$$.

Simply, the law requires considerable protection of personal data and data holders & processors owe a duty of care to data subjects. Hawkes is just doing his job before somebody with a notion and a hungry solicitor issues proceedings for ‘injury’. E.g. reputational damage and mental distress. We have already seen proceedings under DP against the State to halt publication of details in ‘wills’ held in the Probate Office, the outcome of which closed off much of that info except to the direct beneficiaries.

My GUESS is that the Data C saw / were told about a potential data breach and took pre-emptive action and/or on the advice of the Attorney General pulled the plug. Will the decision be reversed soon? No. It will take considerable political support to do it properly (possibly legislation) or a bad outcome short-cut might be to implement the 100 year rule, as in the Census.

The fact that hard copy personal data remains available in the GRO is an example of the total lack of joined-up thinking at State level. However, that and the fact that much of the information is already in the public domain (e.g. BMDs in newspapers) could/should be used in the decision process. But, still stuck with lots of useless urls, I'm not holding my breath.

CeannRua · 31-08-2014 5:04pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Billy Hawkes has been a career civil servant and in fairness is one of the very best from that area. He is covering Data Comm’s / taxpayers’ collective a$$.

Simply, the law requires considerable protection of personal data and data holders & processors owe a duty of care to data subjects. Hawkes is just doing his job before somebody with a notion and a hungry solicitor issues proceedings for ‘injury’. E.g. reputational damage and mental distress. We have already seen proceedings under DP against the State to halt publication of details in ‘wills’ held in the Probate Office, the outcome of which closed off much of that info except to the direct beneficiaries.

My GUESS is that the Data C saw / were told about a potential data breach and took pre-emptive action and/or on the advice of the Attorney General pulled the plug. Will the decision be reversed soon? No. It will take considerable political support to do it properly (possibly legislation) or a bad outcome short-cut might be to implement the 100 year rule, as in the Census.

The fact that hard copy personal data remains available in the GRO is an example of the total lack of joined-up thinking at State level. However, that and the fact that much of the information is already in the public domain (e.g. BMDs in newspapers) could/should be used in the decision process. But, still stuck with lots of useless urls, I'm not holding my breath.

Identity theft is probably a greater danger than reputational damage or mental distress etc. Using the records that were online, it was easy to plot whole families with minimal information. I don't think it's lack of joined-up thinking that's the big issue here; it's that BMD records have long been public records by legislation. There's a difference between BMD records in newspapers and their availability from the GRO in that named individuals themselves are putting in the newspaper notices.

I'm probably one of the few here that think this but I don't agree with the availability online of recent information, or that BMD records should be public records. Australia has restrictions in place for these types of records. Seems more appropriate in this day and age, than a free for all: http://genealogy.about.com/od/vital_records/p/australia.htm

L1011 · 31-08-2014 6:06pm

Any organisation still using mother's maiden name or DOB as security features needs to be severely dealt with by the DPC primarily because it has never been secure information.

pedroeibar1 · 31-08-2014 9:30pm

CeannRua wrote: »

Identity theft is probably a greater danger than reputational damage or mental distress etc.

IMO identity theft from GRO data is not an issue because the data available is not sufficient and that type of info is more readily available elsewhere. How could the State get the CLDS to take down my (or your) data from a server located in Utah? Add the fact that the records in the GRO are nothing compared to what is more widely available on Facebook, LinkedIn and other social media sites.
It’s all changed nowadays, anything financial requires photo ID,up-to-date proofs of residence from utilities companies, etc., mainly because of anti-moneylaundering rules. For travel the order of the day is biometrics, smartchip passports driven by agencies such as Homeland Security.
Mother’s maiden name, (like first dog/teacher/car’s name, etc.) are memory jogs to double-check an existing email address to reset a password.

Updated GRO

Comments