News and views on Greystones harbour and marina [SEE MODERATOR WARNING POST 1187]

Blandpebbles · 26-03-2010 11:18am

Why does the Government have a responsibility to finish it? The Company hasn't gone bust or reneged on their contract, they have committed to bringing it the contractually agreed finishing level.

Only issue is public's expectation of what this is, may vary a great deal from the contractual definition of finishing level.

Langerland · 26-03-2010 12:12pm

Who negotiated the contract with Sispar? Maybe they can enlighten us joe publics on what we can expect.

Blandpebbles · 26-03-2010 12:29pm

WCC and Sispar signed the contract.

As Derek Mitchell is the main Councillor talking about 'finished' by October 2010, I have asked him directly today to confirm who will be signing off on this phase of the Harbour and the exact details of the sign off criteria. That is, 'temporary finish' is not a sufficient criteria for any project signoff.

Blandpebbles · 27-03-2010 8:32pm

Derek has come back to me with the following clarification -

The harbour structures are to be fully completed by October 2010. The temporary surfaces refers to the landside after October 2011.

wakejiver · 29-03-2010 3:39pm

The situation for all concerned is very frustrating. There are a number of councillors who did ram this development through and they are the ones who should have ensured that the such an eventuality was covered under the bond. These concillors should be held responsible, some clearly are more concerned than others to resolve this i.e. Mitchell albeit given he is an avid sailor no surprise there.

The biggest frustation many of us locals have is trying to get a clear answer as to what we may expect when the hoarding comes down and the quality of the finish in lieu of budget constraints and this is not forthcoming from anyone.

micandre · 29-03-2010 9:06pm

given that last count this discussion had 4,379 views, is there an argument for a new sub forum under Greystones & Charlesland for the harbour?

Jammyc · 29-03-2010 9:22pm

micandre wrote: »

given that last count this discussion had 4,379 views, is there an argument for a new sub forum under Greystones & Charlesland for the harbour?

I wouldnt think so. Seems pretty excessive tbh. Not gonna be a permanent cause of chatter aswell.

thecommander · 29-03-2010 9:56pm

micandre wrote: »

given that last count this discussion had 4,379 views, is there an argument for a new sub forum under Greystones & Charlesland for the harbour?

Wouldn't say so. You'd have a sub forum with one post with loads of views.

darter · 30-03-2010 7:35am

Work has really slowed down at the site. Was coming past yesterday on the DART at 17:15 and there was almost nobody there. Went past for the last few Sundays on my round-the-village walk and there is no-one working on Sundays now... Don't know about Saturdays. I didn't see a lot of difference last Sunday compared to the one two weeks before for the outer walls visible from the big circular viewing plastic window on the S side. I can't see that the harbour will be finished by September at this rate.

There does seem to be confusion about when the hoardings will come down. I read in some posts here it will be September this year, but the newspaper article said September 2011.

Does anyone have any real solid facts? Apart from the very few top managers in Sispar that is.

Blanchflower · 08-04-2010 10:42pm

I am currently in Greystones on vacation having grown up here and I am very upset at the state of the harbour. My friends tell me the building work has stalled as there is no more money around to finish it. Does anyone know how long more the harbour will be left in this terrible state?

Back home in the States this type of thing would never have been
be allowed to happen.

tennisplayer · 08-04-2010 11:12pm

Hi Blanchflower, welcome back to the area. There will be a delay in finishing some aspects of the harbour as it was originally planned. But it appears that the harbour walls and main marina structure will be finished. The planned apartments and commercial portion of the works are being postponed until the economy picks up again. At the moment in Ireland house and apartment sales are few and far between, there is approx 300.000 houses/apartments lying empty so there would be no point in building more to remain unsold.
The economy will pick up again in the future and everything will be fine we hope. We must remain optimistic. I hope you enjoy your vacation, at least the weather might be picking up now.

Fiachra2 · 09-04-2010 8:12am

Below is a press release from Tom Fortune. While the approach he takes is based on his own opinions and is more pessimistic than some other local politicians, he is pressing for a practical approach to having the hoardings removed in the short term which Im sure we would all agree would be a great step forward.

Labour Part Councillor Tom Fortune has expressed concern about what he claims is a level of complacency surrounding the debate about the stalled Marina project at Greystones harbour. He is particularly concerned about recent reports which suggest that the hoardings around the harbour which have now been in place for 27 months could remain there for a long number of years into the future. “In meetings last year we were advised that the developers, hoped to remove some of the hoardings by summer 2010” said Fortune. “However information given at recent harbour liaison meetings and statements by some local public representatives suggest that this may not be the case. A number of people are implying that the present situation is only a temporary glitch and that work to complete the development will recommence in a year or two. The implication being that the hoardings will stay in place for that period. The idea that the housing market will recover in a year or so and that the project will be finished is optimistic in the extreme. Every informed commentator agrees that the housing market is on its knees and that recovery will take a long time perhaps decades. Local public representatives need to sit down with the developer and agree a timeline for the removal of these unsightly hoardings”
Councillor Fortune also hit out at the suggestion, by some public representatives, that the community should be grateful that work is continuing and tolerate impositions such as the hoardings. “The developers have adopted a professional approach and are completing the harbour before closing down the project” he said “However they must also acknowledge that they have turned the harbour and surrounding areas into a building site for almost two and a half years. Before leaving-for whatever period-they must restore the harbour area to a condition that is satisfactory to the community” he concluded.

Blandpebbles · 09-04-2010 10:55am

This is coming from the Councillor who pushed for the Burntout building in Kilcoole to be demolished, so people could have a lovely new rubble pile eyesore in the town.

Expressing concern, hitting out and concluding are all great words.

Blandpebbles has expressed his concern over the hoardings, hitting out at the lack of progress. Something must be done he concluded. Where's my Councillor Salary?

Anyway, Councillors off your a**es and make a combined public statement of what will or will not be done for October.

Blanchflower · 09-04-2010 1:17pm

Fiachra2 wrote: »

Below is a press release from Tom Fortune. While the approach he takes is based on his own opinions and is more pessimistic than some other local politicians, he is pressing for a practical approach to having the hoardings removed in the short term which Im sure we would all agree would be a great step forward.

Labour Part Councillor Tom Fortune has expressed concern about what he claims is a level of complacency surrounding the debate about the stalled Marina project at Greystones harbour. He is particularly concerned about recent reports which suggest that the hoardings around the harbour which have now been in place for 27 months could remain there for a long number of years into the future. “In meetings last year we were advised that the developers, hoped to remove some of the hoardings by summer 2010” said Fortune. “However information given at recent harbour liaison meetings and statements by some local public representatives suggest that this may not be the case. A number of people are implying that the present situation is only a temporary glitch and that work to complete the development will recommence in a year or two. The implication being that the hoardings will stay in place for that period. The idea that the housing market will recover in a year or so and that the project will be finished is optimistic in the extreme. Every informed commentator agrees that the housing market is on its knees and that recovery will take a long time perhaps decades. Local public representatives need to sit down with the developer and agree a timeline for the removal of these unsightly hoardings”
Councillor Fortune also hit out at the suggestion, by some public representatives, that the community should be grateful that work is continuing and tolerate impositions such as the hoardings. “The developers have adopted a professional approach and are completing the harbour before closing down the project” he said “However they must also acknowledge that they have turned the harbour and surrounding areas into a building site for almost two and a half years. Before leaving-for whatever period-they must restore the harbour area to a condition that is satisfactory to the community” he concluded.

Looks like Councillor Fortune wants to get things done to get these hoardings down. Hopefully he will succeed.

markymark21 · 09-04-2010 3:53pm

Blanchflower wrote: »

Looks like Councillor Fortune wants to get things done to get these hoardings down. Hopefully he will succeed.

Councillors will promise you the sun moon and the stars if it means getting the votes. I don't any one councillor has the power to do much anyway and most of them are just praying on peoples emotions hoping to gain a few extra votes

End of the day I think everybody knew there would be problems in this project and anyone who thought it would be all plain sailing and happy days must be deluded. Will probably end up being a huge white elephant anyway

Blandpebbles · 09-04-2010 4:07pm

I suppose two things that people are not asking is, should the hoardings be taken down? Are the hoardings hiding a much worse view than we think?

On another note, when are the next Council Elections? Not one of these fellas should be back in power after it.

Annasopra · 09-04-2010 7:27pm

Blandpebbles wrote: »

On another note, when are the next Council Elections? Not one of these fellas should be back in power after it.

2014

Blanchflower · 09-04-2010 8:16pm

Blandpebbles wrote: »

I suppose two things that people are not asking is, should the hoardings be taken down? Are the hoardings hiding a much worse view than we think?

On another note, when are the next Council Elections? Not one of these fellas should be back in power after it.

No matter what they are hiding I would still like to have the hoardings removed before I head back Stateside. If Councillor Fortune can succeed in his quest I salute him.

pixbyjohn · 10-04-2010 7:21pm

Blandpebbles wrote: »

On another note, when are the next Council Elections? Not one of these fellas should be back in power after it.

Sure they were only voted in last year :rolleyes:

Fiachra2 · 11-04-2010 10:32am

Folks.

If you check the first post on this thread you will see that we agreed that we would restrict this thread to information on the harbour and not allow it to degenerate into an exchange of opinions on the project (or the merits of councillors!)

I sugest all our interests are best served in keeping it that way.

Jammyc · 11-04-2010 12:03pm

Fiachra2 wrote: »

Folks.

If you check the first post on this thread you will see that we agreed that we would restrict this thread to information on the harbour and not allow it to degenerate into an exchange of opinions on the project (or the merits of councillors!)

I sugest all our interests are best served in keeping it that way.

But then why would it be called 'news and views on the harbour, if people cant add their own two cents? Mods havent said anything yet.

Blanchflower · 11-04-2010 2:26pm

Apart from getting those horrid hoardings down asap the thorny question of coastal erosion must be tackled. I have seen the impact of coastline developments on the adjacent shorelines many times in the States and the Greystones shoreline is not immune from this reality. Normally the developer places shingle to protect the shoreline from erosion. Does anyone know if the developer at Greystones has any such commitment?

loyatemu · 11-04-2010 2:29pm

Fiachra2 wrote: »

Folks.

If you check the first post on this thread you will see that we agreed that we would restrict this thread to information on the harbour and not allow it to degenerate into an exchange of opinions on the project (or the merits of councillors!)

I sugest all our interests are best served in keeping it that way.

while I do get a strong feeling of dread anytime anyone posts about the harbour - in this case there have been new developments in the story (ie the confirmation that the work is going to cease later in the year) and this is the most recent thread on the topic, so its inevitable that its going to be discussed here. Provided it remains civil (& not just in the engineering sense) I'm not going to intervene.

Fiachra2 · 11-04-2010 2:40pm

Blanchflower wrote: »

Apart from getting those horrid hoardings down asap the thorny question of coastal erosion must be tackled. I have seen the impact of coastline developments on the adjacent shorelines many times in the States and the Greystones shoreline is not immune from this reality. Normally the developer places shingle to protect the shoreline from erosion. Does anyone know if the developer at Greystones has any such commitment?

There has been very signifcant erosion just north of the harbour which was recently reported on in the Irish Times. This erosion is caused by the new harbour and was predicted by the builders who did indeed commit to placing shingle on the beach each year (albeit that this practice is antiquated and environmentally unsound). However this commitment was presumably predicated on them completing the project which will not be the case in the short term at least. No shingle has been deposited in the last two winters. The absence of this is presumably the cause of the erosion.

darter · 11-04-2010 7:47pm

Dear all,

As the OP of this thread, I would like to congratulate almost everyone for keeping to news and views on the harbour. (News and views on our elected representatives belong elsewhere.) All other threads on the harbour degenerated into squabbling and were subsequently closed by the moderators, and we need to avoid that. It is very important that we have a place for information for us all.

Please keep up the information flow, sad though it is!

Darter

Blanchflower · 12-04-2010 8:59pm

Fiachra2 wrote: »

There has been very signifcant erosion just north of the harbour which was recently reported on in the Irish Times. This erosion is caused by the new harbour and was predicted by the builders who did indeed commit to placing shingle on the beach each year (albeit that this practice is antiquated and environmentally unsound). However this commitment was presumably predicated on them completing the project which will not be the case in the short term at least. No shingle has been deposited in the last two winters. The absence of this is presumably the cause of the erosion.

If the developer no longer has the financial resources to place the shingle material on the beach I fear that the erosion will continue to be dramatic. I can remember before I went to the States that the old railway line was moved further inland. Is there a danger that the existing dart railway line could be in danger because of this erosion in the near future?

pixbyjohn · 12-04-2010 11:35pm

Blanchflower wrote: »

If the developer no longer has the financial resources to place the shingle material on the beach I fear that the erosion will continue to be dramatic. I can remember before I went to the States that the old railway line was moved further inland. Is there a danger that the existing dart railway line could be in danger because of this erosion in the near future?

Just so as the facts are correct: The railway line has not been moved inland in the past 60 years. I don't wish to drag this discussion off topic but facts are facts.

Adrenalin · 12-04-2010 11:49pm

i cant wait till its open again.

darter · 13-04-2010 6:31am

pixbyjohn wrote: »

Just so as the facts are correct: The railway line has not been moved inland in the past 60 years. I don't wish to drag this discussion off topic but facts are facts.

Pixbyjohn, you surely have access to historical photos of the North Beach over many years, or know where to get them from. From those photos you can make a time-lapse "movie" of the beach erosion, and demonstrate either than the erosion rate today is normal, or that it's far greater than what was normal before the marina development commenced.

As you say, facts are facts, and there is somewhat of a dearth of facts.

Blanchflower · 13-04-2010 8:59am

pixbyjohn wrote: »

Just so as the facts are correct: The railway line has not been moved inland in the past 60 years. I don't wish to drag this discussion off topic but facts are facts.

60 years is not a very long time when you are my age pixbyjohn. I am a very old man with a very good elephant like memory thank God. I remember lots about the Greystones of yesteryear. All I am asking is whether there is a danger that the line will need to be moved inland again because of the accelerated erosion? Does anyone know ?

loyatemu · 13-04-2010 10:31am

Blanchflower wrote: »

Is there a danger that the existing dart railway line could be in danger because of this erosion in the near future?

Irish Rail have done a lot of engineering work around Bray Head to protect the line in recent years - I'd imagine major coastal protection work along the North Beach would still be cheaper than moving the line inland (you'd run into problems with aligning any new line with the first tunnel).

If the cost became prohibitive then the danger is the line might have to close - I don't think thats likely in the short or medium term though.

pixbyjohn · 13-04-2010 10:46am

darter wrote: »

Pixbyjohn, you surely have access to historical photos of the North Beach over many years, or know where to get them from. From those photos you can make a time-lapse "movie" of the beach erosion, and demonstrate either than the erosion rate today is normal, or that it's far greater than what was normal before the marina development commenced.

As you say, facts are facts, and there is somewhat of a dearth of facts.

When the houses on the North Beach were overtaken by the erosion of yesteryear it would show that the sea has been eating away massively over the years. But what it also shows is that at times the erosion is more dramatic at different times. No doubt that the work now going on at the harbour is causing erosion damage but what you or I say will not change that at this stage.
I, like everyone else wish to see everything finished to a state that we can all be happy with but in the nature of things this will not happen cos we are so different.
I was not active in the pro or con arguments of this development but I agree that it has stirred a lot of emotions and we all must listen to the fors and againsts.
All we can hope for is that in the future Greystones will be such a place that will encourage further investment and maybe we will have what we all want.
On a side note, when the railway tunnels were built to bring the trains to Greystones the population of our town was 1200 people. What a far sighted people they were then.
Roundwood reservoir was built circa 1932 and is still serving us.
I really would love to see the railway line built alongside the N11 making trains available to everyone but thats for another thread

Fiachra2 · 13-04-2010 12:56pm

darter wrote: »

Pixbyjohn, you surely have access to historical photos of the North Beach over many years, or know where to get them from. From those photos you can make a time-lapse "movie" of the beach erosion, and demonstrate either than the erosion rate today is normal, or that it's far greater than what was normal before the marina development commenced.

.

I dont think you need to dig out photographs to calculate the erosion. I have been walking the cliff walk for rather more than 40 years and can remember when there was quite a bit more land (in some places). Derek Paines books, if you have acess to them, will illustrate this.

The relevant point is that erosion is always taking place. Sometimes it speeds up and sometimes it stops completely and the causes are often not well understood. What is becoming increasingly well understood is that it is, in most cases, a natural process which is virtually impossible to stop it. At best you simply displace it. An EU study cariied out a few years ago concluded that 70% of erosion happening in the EU was caused by man made attempts to halt erosion!

That the new harbour is accelerating erosion is more or less beyond dispute. Those building the harbour predicted that it would. However it will be quite a few years before that have to move the railway line although in time it may happen. However they will then have to move Mounthaven, fairfield park etc so we will be into a whole new debate!

darter · 13-04-2010 6:06pm

Fiachra2 wrote: »

An EU study cariied out a few years ago concluded that 70% of erosion happening in the EU was caused by man made attempts to halt erosion!

Interesting. Can you give me the reference as I don't find it with search engines.

Fiachra2 wrote: »

That the new harbour is accelerating erosion is more or less beyond dispute.

You cannot make that statement without recourse to historical data demonstrating that the current erosion rate is greater than any erosion rate in the past. Which is why I was asking for digitizing of old photos to show erosion time history.

Much like the climate change debate, one has to remove natural cycles from the data to judge that what is happening is outside the prior natural cycles. It may still be natural, or it may be human-induced, but we must first establish that the behaviour is anomalous.

Blanchflower · 13-04-2010 10:24pm

darter wrote: »

Much like the climate change debate, one has to remove natural cycles from the data to judge that what is happening is outside the prior natural cycles. It may still be natural, or it may be human-induced, but we must first establish that the behaviour is anomalous.

From my vantage point in the States I was amazed to hear that they were now building in the sea on an eroding soft shoreline at my beloved Greystones. Sea levels are rising around the coastline of the States and in also around the coastline of Ireland. Coastal erosion in on the increase everywhere. This is made worse by hard man made structures on the shoreline. Something about interrupting longshore drift and beach starvation I believe. Managed retreat is the order of the day in coastal communities all over the States. Insurance companies are refusing to cover coastal properties. That wonderfully Irish creation "NAMA" is now planning to demolish the ghost estates all over the country. What the hell was going over here while I have been away?

Fiachra2 · 14-04-2010 7:21am

darter wrote: »

Interesting. Can you give me the reference as I don't find it with search engines.

You cannot make that statement without recourse to historical data demonstrating that the current erosion rate is greater than any erosion rate in the past. Which is why I was asking for digitizing of old photos to show erosion time history..

I will dig that refernce out and PM you. It may take me a while

My point was that if you look up the developers EIS you will find a detailed analysis of historic erosion rates using maps and other data as well as photographs which I imagine is rather more scientific than what you propose. Their projectsions of erosion caused by the harbour are included in this study.

However if John can verify or disprove this then why not? If he can produce evidence that the erosion is not unusual I would guess that Wicklow county Council would be only too glad to hear from him!

pixbyjohn · 14-04-2010 8:51am

Fiachra2,
I don't have complete documentary evidence of coastal erosion and would find it very tedious to compose a timelapse video to cover a hundred years.
John

Vea · 14-04-2010 6:42pm

I was disappointed to hear they are going to stop work on the harbour. I was wondering just how usable its going to be. I note from browsing the net that a dredging contract has been cancelled (see link).
http://www.porttechnology.org/port_planning_environment/300-million-dredging-project-halted-in-Ireland/5590.html

Would this mean that the harbour would be good as useless for launching trail sailboats etc. I expect it will silt up over time. Anybody out there know any more about this?

loyatemu · 14-04-2010 10:12pm

Vea wrote: »

I was disappointed to hear they are going to stop work on the harbour. I was wondering just how usable its going to be. I note from browsing the net that a dredging contract has been cancelled (see link).
http://www.porttechnology.org/port_planning_environment/300-million-dredging-project-halted-in-Ireland/5590.html

Would this mean that the harbour would be good as useless for launching trail sailboats etc. I expect it will silt up over time. Anybody out there know any more about this?

misleading headline (they're not spending €300m on dredging alone...). The rest of the article is almost identical to the one in the times.

The consensus seems to be that the harbour walls slipways etc will be finished, the ancillary facilities will be put on hold. Not sure about the marina element (hardly a good time to be opening a marina though).

pixbyjohn · 16-04-2010 6:15pm

pixbyjohn · 16-04-2010 6:15pm

pixbyjohn · 16-04-2010 6:16pm

pixbyjohn · 16-04-2010 6:17pm

Welsh Wizard · 16-04-2010 8:20pm

Wow... some zoom on your lens..

Blanchflower · 18-04-2010 10:12pm

pixbyjohn wrote: »

Fiachra2,
I don't have complete documentary evidence of coastal erosion and would find it very tedious to compose a timelapse video to cover a hundred years.
John

Pixbyjohn, I came across an interesting analysis by Professor Andrew Cooper of the impact of the new breakwaters given during the oral hearing on the harbour development which may be of some interest to you

http://greystonesmarina.blogspot.com/

pixbyjohn · 19-04-2010 12:20am

Blanchflower,
Thank you for that, an interesting side to the argument against the harbour development.

Blanchflower · 20-04-2010 10:32pm

pixbyjohn wrote: »

Blanchflower,
Thank you for that, an interesting side to the argument against the harbour development.

Increased coastal erosion outside the new breakwaters is a very serious impact of the development.

It is in all our interests to ensure that the developer, concillors and Wicklow County Council are held accountable to ensure they fulfill the commitment they made to the people.

pixbyjohn · 20-04-2010 11:10pm

pixbyjohn · 20-04-2010 11:24pm

Tabnabs · 21-04-2010 9:49am

pixbyjohn wrote: »

When was this photo taken?

News and views on Greystones harbour and marina [SEE MODERATOR WARNING POST 1187]

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